Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Exactly. Other than his two goals against Barcelona there is really nothing impressive about his track record. In the league he trails a long way behind other folks and this was the fourth league in Europe.

    But this is how the behind the scenes politicking works....
     
  2. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    It's a combination of factors surely. Goals are an important factor, they decide games, but they're not everything. His overall contribution that season, goals aside was negligible. His link-up play was non-existent and he did little other than score.

    Also when you look at a big game like the Bayern match in which he scored 2 offside goals, that takes some of the shine off.

    But obviously 10 goals from the QFs onwards is very impressive.
     
    Perú FC repped this.
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    There is no other candidate for best champions league player in 2016/17
    TBH I cannot believe this even being discussed(when i responded to you I actually thought you was talking about 2017/18)

    There is no previous example in the history of the champions league of a player doing what he did and against the level of opposition he played

    Check his performance against Napoli in the R16 for world class link up play
    He could’ve had 4 assists in the first 45 minutes if it weren’t for the typically inept finishing of karim benzema
     
  4. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I also found Buffon's high positioning in 16 & 17 awards a bit baffling, yes a great goalkeeper and one of the best but was he more important than the likes of Chiellini, Bonucci... etc..I don;t think so, in fact in my view he was not at the level as a say De Gea who was just at a significantly worst team.

    I would say re voting it it was more as a voting for a career rather than a year, akin to say Ballon d'or Yashin 63 or Albert 67...
     
    Perú FC, PuckVanHeel and carlito86 repped this.
  5. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Ok, I think that "pillar" was not the correct word (for that he would have needed a superior consistency and leadership), but a kind of "hero" at opportune moments.

    I must say that the more I review I think you can think a fair point here in the comparison with Robben, but I'm still not sure if it's enough to leave him out of the top 23. I'm trying to check again what in my opinion are the "weakest cases".
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I tend to agree.

    There was some lobbying behind him for sure (that wasn't a secret) but it also helped he was approaching, equalling or surpassing some career records. For example he tied and later surpassed the most league titles record, and approached the number of CL clean sheets (is now 3rd overall behind Casillas and VdS), the most Serie A clean sheets and a half dozen more of those meaningful and less meaningful records.

    Some of the seasonal records were overblown because he indeed didn't have to do a lot (compared to Cech et al. during their runs) and made clearly a less secure impression for the national team at the time (that wasn't particularly strong at all imho). You could see his age in a few important Champions League games. Since 2015 he has been in the top five for goalkeeping errors.

    He was/is positionally great and technically a sound goalkeeper. Stylistically nice and for many nicer as younger ones I guess.

    In terms of importance in 2016-17 I think you can make a strong case for Bonucci (even if he's error prone and weak one-on-one) Higuain and Pjanic. Chiellini only played 20 league games and wasn't in his best form I think but like Dani Alves, Mandzukic and Dybala he contributed. Pjanic is/was actually kind of underrated I think; he can also score goals and assists, and is difficult to replace. Pjanic instead of Pogba made them stronger in the CL imho (also in 2017-18 when Buffon lost his mind vs Madrid etc.).

    So the ageing Buffon was still good and all but other things like career accumulation helped.
     
    Perú FC and AD78 repped this.
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1432 carlito86, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    This has been covered before I’m sure but Messi was already rewarded for his legendary consecutive scoring run that started in October 2012-February 2013(the goals that Messi scored at the start of 12/13 tilted the balance in his favour for the 2012 ballon dor)

    According to many there was nothing to split Messi/ronaldo in 2011/12

    In the uefa best player in Europe award they finished joint second with 18 points each ( as per usual a player with a few good international performances gets overrated-yeah you guessed it iniesta finished ahead of 2 players who scored a combined total of 133 goals in a single club season)

    Ronaldo was a phenomenally consistent scorer in the 2013 calendar year
    (Maybe you think goals aren’t everything but it’s worth mentioning He scored more than the next two ballon dor candidates combined)
    Outside of the Dortmund game he was very decisive against Barcelona in the league and copa Del Rey,against atletico Madrid,Seville,juventus and the World Cup qualifiers

    There is no way ,in fact absolutely no way one could objectively claim Messi was better or more deserving than ronaldo in the 2013 calendar year
     
  8. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Despite my earlier post, re-reading this thread has made me want to take another run at this, more specifically I think it would be a lot of fun to try to create a community list.

    Have a nomination process. Really go through and try to thoughtfully present available evidence (especially primary sources) and arguments for the nominated candidates. Probably come to some sort of consensus on a number of the candidates, then try to figure out the final spots, possibly resorting to some type of vote.

    It would be really fun to take our time for each season and look for all possible evidence before making decisions. I know there is a lot of excellent evidence scattered throughout the forum already. Part of the issue with my previous run through of this exercise was the fact I was trying to hurry to a degree so I could finish at some point. It became monotonous. I think an enjoyable way to handle the monotony might be to jump around decade to decade. First run through the 1960s, then maybe the 1990s, then we could jump all the way back to the 1890s etc. Then posters can be more involved based on their knowledge/interest in a specific time period. I know some posters here have much more knowledge about Pre-WWI football (specifically British) than others and those posters could become more or less involved as is appropriate based on their willingness and knowledge base/sources.

    I would be more than happy to moderate/guide the thread, e.g. keep up with the list of candidates and evidence presented, clearly outline the different competitions/matches that will be part of the "season" for different continents and leagues, post the final lists etc.

    Let me know if you would be interested in participating, as I said before I am not interested in doing this myself, but in moderating the communities list. I think it would be fun to get as many posters involved who have good knowledge and access to sources, even ones that may not be regulars on this forum but come over from another forum for the project.
     
    Ariaga II, comme, elegos7 and 2 others repped this.
  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I think De Bruyne would have a much better case if the list were annual (The Guardian ranked him as the 4th best footballer of the 2017, he was included in the UEFA.com fans' Team of the Year in January 2018 and was 14th in the Ballon d'Or votes), but in the period of the season, although he still had a very good campaign (he was the top assister of the FA Premier League), his recognitions were more limited (he was not included in the PFA Team of the Year).
     
  10. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I totally agree. I think Cristiano Ronaldo, as effective as he was, was irregular in general terms and with somewhat low periods. In contrast, however, he had a legendary and timely performance in the final phase of the UEFA Champions League and that catapults him to that top 3 for me, although not as a safe option.

    In terms of regularity and skills in general I think Modric and Marcelo could be considered the best players of the whole campaign of Real Madrid.
     
  11. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I think that's a difficult case to measure for statistics (even some advanced ones) and it certainly oscillates in what each one gives more weight in his criterion.
     
  12. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I think it's a great idea. It would be great to make a compilation of good sources and organize them to have a solid base to start with. I would suggest, I think it's easier, to make those lists with the season as the criterion instead of the calendar year. I would like to be able to investigate from the beginning of the 20th century. Fabulous initiative.
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    What is your criteria for evaluating a midfielders performance
    For a goalscorer it’s simple(btw I can accept that CR did not turn up in the SF and final but 15 goals is still 15 goals and 1 goal more than anyone not named Cristiano has ever scored in the champions league)

    your just making it difficult for yourself
    I personally don’t see how any midfielder that hardly ever scores,does not lead in key passes on his own team(check the long balls and through ball stats aswell) can be comparable to a goalscorer who scored more than anyone bar himself in the competitions history


    Just to be clear even though I think he was the best CL player in 17/18 he wasn’t too far ahead of salah or possibly even firmino

    in 2016/17 it’s an open and shut case.IMO there isn’t even a need to Look for alternative candidates
    The best player as far as the CL is concerned was clear as day
     
  14. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I agree with seasons as oppose to years. Seasons become a little awkward when comparing South America vs Europe in the 1960s for example, as the intercontinental cup would count for different seasons in Europe vs South America, but that is rare and only applies to international competitions in the fall/winter, which are few.
     
  15. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I suppose so, but the awards that I have more in mind are those that were given in the middle of the year or were within the period of the season (UEFA Mens' Player of the Year award it's given in August and also the 2016-17 UEFA Club Competition awards). By the dates, these could probably have happened with 1 or 2 2017-18 Serie A rounds ended (I'm not sure if they influence at all).
     
  16. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    #1441 msioux75, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    Yeah, you also quoted me, talking about another topic.

    But, I said in other thread, in that edition attended 4/6 main SA countries, considering underdogs.
    I think, only the previous edition, 1937, was fully attended until then.
     
  17. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    For me Buffon has borderline cases in 2016 and 2017, not as high as it suggests that he was voted 9th and 4th place in the Ballon d'Or or 6th and 3rd in the UEFA Best Player in Europe award of each of those years.

    Yes, I think it helps his case, a little help, his records. In 2016 he was included with 3 other goalkeepers (Navas, Neuer and Oblak) and for this last list in terms of pure abilities I'd say that he would be on the same level as Neuer, Oblak and de Gea, but, apart from the above mentioned, perhaps his iconic figure and the final instance that to which he arrived gives him a type of preference that breaks that equality.
     
  18. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    It's good to see you again here mate.

    It would be a very good interesting idea. I'd actively participate and it would be an opportunity to learn and improve what has been done up to now.
     
  19. elegos7

    elegos7 Member

    Jun 28, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    It is a great idea. I would be most interested in the pre-1920 period, which has not been covered before.
    I know this is the most obscure era, but the fact that most of the nominated players come from the British Isles can make comparisons easier. The major problem is the amateur/professional divide and the fact the many early Scottish professionals could not play for their national team.
     
  20. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    A variation on the theme might be a World XI for each season. Not sure if BigSoccer has attempted this before.
     
  21. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The Ballon D'or gives a better picture, not just because there are 23 nominations and not just 11, but also because in some years, a position could be really stacked, and 5-10 players of the same position deserve mentioning more than the top 1-2 players of a different position.
     
  22. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Maybe, from the 23 list, plus HM, it can be made a Team of the Season.
     
    Titanlux and Tom Stevens repped this.
  23. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    This is my final list, at least until the final review of the decade:

    2017

    AUBAMEYANG, Pierre-Emerick (Gabon & Borussia Dortmund)
    BONUCCI, Leonardo (Italy & Juventus)
    BUFFON, Gianluigi (Italy & Juventus)
    CAVANI, Edinson (Uruguay & Paris Saint-Germain)
    CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal & Real Madrid)
    DYBALA, Paulo (Argentina & Juventus)
    HAZARD, Eden (Belgium & Chelsea)
    ISCO (Spain & Real Madrid)
    KANE, Harry (England & Tottenham Hotspur)
    KANTÉ, N'Golo (France & Chelsea)
    KROOS, Toni (Germany & Real Madrid)
    LEWANDOWSKI, Robert (Poland & Bayern Munich)
    MARCELO (Brazil & Real Madrid)
    MBAPPÉ, Kylian (France & AS Monaco)
    MERTENS, Dries (Belgium & Napoli)
    MESSI, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona)
    MODRIC, Luka (Croatia & Real Madrid)
    NEYMAR (Brazil & Barcelona)
    RAMOS, Sergio (Spain & Real Madrid)
    ROBBEN, Arjen (Netherlands & Bayern Munich)
    SÁNCHEZ, Alexis (Chile & Arsenal)
    SILVA, Bernardo (Portugal & AS Monaco)
    THIAGO Alcántara (Spain & Bayern Munich)

    Top 3

    1) Lionel Messi
    2) Cristiano Ronaldo
    3) Luka Modric

    All the lists
     
  24. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Correct me if I'm wrong;
    The 2017 year includes WC18, Because Modric is 3rd.
    Your link mentions that the ratings are seasonal and not annual. So your list of 2017 also includes the second half of the 2017 - 2018 for European based players.
     
  25. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I'm of course up for this since I'm already making my own contributions. I'm progressing at my own speed, but if other people want to chime in on the 60s now would be a good time. Not sure what kind of "consensus" we'll be able to get to, though. I've made 3 sets of suggestions so far and some buffoon is already evoking Hitler. :laugh:
     

Share This Page