Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    #1401 PuckVanHeel, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    The main question is evaded: what did he do that others did not? Is starring against Crotone and Palermo really so amazing and creating a difference?

    I'd guess Dzeko, Mertens, maybe Insigne (Icardi, Higuain) had considerably more MOTM awards. Source?

    Yes I've already said many things about (political) smoke machines, belated recognition and double handicaps (with you as key figure behind further knocking down decades after). Those things. Thanks for demonstrating that point again.

    This bears no relation to the question what Dybala was exactly doing.

    Forsberg didn't play in Europe (and has been injured since, and greatly felt by his team), missed many games against the top teams, but did he 'lesser' things in the league? I'm wondering/stretching now.

    In the 2nd leg yes, after Porto had already lost 0-2 at home in the first leg. Is showing up and producing in one game against Porto better as producing and shining in both games against Arsenal? Very questionable.

    Another illustrative thing to mention is even in that great Barcelona performance, he had 0 key passes, 0 through balls, 0 accurate crosses (2 attempts) and 1 dribble. So it was a great performance (and hyped up further) with two well taken goals but not necessarily a complete game.

    This is actually one of the things that tends to make me sceptical. He is not a 'pillar'. He is generally peripheral or making bad decisions and those things. I don't have the idea he really makes his team a (fraction) better. He can't be made a focal point even if they try. This is for a part subjective, I know, but I think the claim he isn't really vital can be backed up. He doesn't (help to) make a team tick or makes them sharper in execution.
    For me he's someone who occasionally slots in with a goal or assist but not really a pillar I think.
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  2. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    Hi. In my top 23 that I made at the end of 2017, I included Agüero, Courtois, Griezmann, Oblak and Luis Suárez, although all of them, very close to the one that occupied the position 24. In the same way, Bonucci, Dani Alves, Mertens , Alexis Sánchez and Thiago Alcántara were not far from occupying any of the first 23 places. No proposition of change in relation to any of them. However, what I am very surprised about is that you included Bernardo Silva in the list of 23 and, on the contrary, did not include Kevin de Bruyne, who was very well classified by different media and integrated the ideal XI of the UEFA.

    As for his doubt about the second and third place in the ranking, I would suggest Cristiano Ronaldo as 2nd and Neymar 3rd.

    Either way, excellent list.
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  3. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    Here is the accumulated ranking of the 1950s based on Tom Stevens' annual rankings:

    1.- Di Stéfano (Argentina)
    2.- Puskas (Hungría)
    3.- Schiaffino (Uruguay)
    4.- Kopa (Francia)
    5.- Didi (Brasil)
    6.- Kocsis (Hungría)
    Nordahl (Suecia)
    8.- Julinho (Brasil)
    9.- Hidegkuti (Hungría)
    10.- Bozsik (Hungría)
    Kubala (Hungría)
    12.- Liedholm (Suecia)
    13.- Pelé (Brasil)
    14.- Walter, Fritz (Alemania)
    15.- Czibor (Hungría)
    16.- Ademir de Menezes (Brasil)
    17.- Ocwirck (Austria)
    18.- Wright, Billy (Inglaterra)
    19.- Netto (URSS)
    20.- Wilkes (Holanda)
    21.- Claudio (Brasil)
    Garrincha (Brasil)
    Gento (España)
    Walter Gómez (Uruguay)
    Santamaría (Uruguay)
    Sívori (Argentina)
    Zizinho (Brasil)
    28.- Santos, Djalma (Brasil)
    29.- Basora (España)
    Matthews (Inglaterra)
    Míguez (Uruguay)
    Rodríguez Andrade (Uruguay)
    33.- Boniperti (Italia)
    Corbatta (Argentina)
    Finney (Inglaterra)
    Hanappi (Austria)
    Jonquet (Francia)
    Rial (Argentina)
    Rossi, Néstor (Argentina)
    Yashin (URSS)
    41.- Angelillo (Argentina)
    Jair (Brasil)
  4. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Arsenal FC
    4 of the top 5 played for Madrid Galacticos at some point.:ROFLMAO:
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  5. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    FC Nantes
    And numbers 5 to 10 all participated in the Battle of Bern.

    (almost all)
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  6. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    Accumulating the first four decades of the work of Tom Stevens and ordering the players from highest to lowest score, this would be the ranking between 1920 and 1959.

    As a curiosity, Europeans: 58.69% (English: 13.77%, Hungarians: 10.87%, Italians: 7.25%); South American: 41.31% (Argentines: 18.84%, Uruguayans: 11.59%, Brazilians: 10.14%). Most Argentine footballers therefore.

    1.-Di Stéfano (Argentina) 33,5 points.
    2.- Puskas (Hungría) 30,06
    3.- Moreno (Argentina) 29,32
    4.- Meazza (Italia) 27,37
    5.- Sindelar (Austria) 27,06
    6.- Zizinho (Brasil) 20,71
    7.- Pesek (Checoslovaquia) 19,62
    8.- Gallacher, Hugh (Escocia) 18,77
    9.-Schiaffino (Uruguay) 18,74
    10.-Bican (Austria) 17,76
    11.-Morton (Escocia) 17
    12.-Sarosi (Hungría) 16,97
    13.-Nordahl (Suecia) 16,84
    14.-Pedernera (Argentina) 16,48
    15.-Scarone (Uruguay) 16,42
    16.- Leónidas (Brasil) 16,23
    17.- Kopa (Francia) 16,12
    18.- Orsi (Argentina) 15,9
    19.- Mazzola, V. (Italia) 15,51
    20.- Sastre (Argentina) 15,37
    21.- Ademir de Menezes (Brasil) 15,1
    22.- Andrade (Uruguay) 14,73
    23.- Erico (Paraguay) 14,72
    24.- Didi (Brasil) 14,7
    25.- Matthews (Inglaterra) 14,58
    26.- Kocsis (Hungría) 13,2
    27.- Bastin (Inglaterra) 12,8
    28.- Jackson, Alex (Escocia) 12,74
    29.- Nejedly (Checoslovaquia) 12,48
    30.- Martino (Argentina) 12,44
    31.- Buchan (Inglaterra) 12
    32.- García, Atilio (Uruguay) 11,89
    33.- Dean (Inglaterra) 11,65
    34.- Walker, Billy (Inglaterra) 11,3
    35.- Zsengeller (Hungría) 11,09
    36.- Méndez (Argentina) 10,9
    37.- Zamora, Ricardo (España) 10,56
    38.- Nasazzi (Uruguay) 10,52
    39.- Orth (Hungría) 10,5
    40.- Pontoni (Argentina) 9,8
    41.- Varela, Severino (Uruguay) 9,74
    42.- Liedholm (Suecia) 9,67
    43.- Julinho (Brasil) 9,6
    Labruna (Argentina) 9,6
    45.- Hidegkuti (Hungría) 9,28
    46.- Lawton (Inglaterra) 9,2
    47.- Jack (Inglaterra) 9,09
    48.- Piola (Italia) 8,93
    49.- Braine (Bélgica) 8,9
    Walter, Fritz (Alemania) 8,9
    51.- Carter (Inglaterra) 8,8
    52.- Bozsik (Hungría) 8,79
    53.- Gómez, Walter (Uruguay) 8,49
    54.- Deak (Hungría) 8,4
    55.- Petrone (Uruguay) 8,39
    56.- Ferrari (Italia) 8,37
    Kubala (Hungría) 8,37
    58.- Gren (Suecia) 8,25
    59.- James, Alex (Inglaterra) 8,11
    60.- Varela, Obdulio (Uruguay) 8,1
    61.- Hapgood (Inglaterra) 8,06
    62.- McGrory (Escocia) 8
    63.- Samitier (España) 7,83
    64.- Domingos da Guía (Brasil) 7,8
    65.- Binder (Austria) 7,63
    66.- Avar (Hungría) 7,6
    67.- Monti (Argentina) 7,55
    68.- Jair (Brasil) 7,5
    69.- Planicka (Checoslovaquia) 7,48
    70.- Seoane (Argentina) 7,42
    71.- Pelé (Brasil) 7,2
    72.- Puc (Checoslovaquia) 6,9
    73.- Boyé (Argentina) 6,8
    74.- Braun, Jozsef (Hungría) 6,72
    Friedenreich (Brasil) 6,72
    76.- Schiavio (Italia) 6,65
    77.- Ferreyra, Bernabé (Argentina) 6,5
    78.- Czibor (Hungría) 6,38
    79.- Finney (Inglaterra) 6,04
    Szepan (Alemania) 6,04
    81.- Ocwirck (Austria) 6,02
    82.- Wilson, Andy (Escocia) 6
    83.- Andreolo (Uruguay) 5,6
    Konrad, Kalman (Hungría) 5,6
    85.- Basora (España) 5,51
    Loustau (Argentina) 5,51
    87.- Lángara (España) 5,4
    Wright, Billy (Inglaterra) 5,4
    89.- Brook (Inglaterra) 5,2
    Netto (URSS) 5,2
    91.- Míguez (Uruguay) 5
    92.- Drake (Inglaterra) 4,8
    Schall (Austria) 4,8
    Sosa, Carlos (Argentina) 4,8
    Takacs, Jozsef (Hungría) 4,8
    Wilkes (Holanda) 4,8
    97.- Boniperti (Italia) 4,74
    Rossi, Néstor (Argentina) 4,74
    Zarra (España) 4,74
    100.- Porta (Uruguay) 4,61
    101.- Claudio (Brasil) 4,59
    Garrincha (Brasil) 4,59
    Gento (España) 4,59
    Heleno (Brasil) 4,59
    Libonatti (Argentina) 4,59
    Salomón (Argentina) 4,59
    Santamaría (Uruguay) 4,59
    Sívori (Argentina) 4,59
    109.- Cherro (Argentina) 4,56
    110.- Morris (Inglaterra) 4,4
    111.- Danilo Alvim (Brasil) 4,32
    Kostalek (Checoslovaquia) 4,32
    Santos, Djalma (Brasil) 4,32
    Svoboda (Checoslovaquia) 4,32
    115.- Ferreira, Manuel (Argentina) 4,25
    116.- Blenkinsop (Inglaterra) 4,1
    117.- Chico (Brasil) 4,06
    118.- García, Enrique (Argentina) 4,01
    119.- Allemandi (Italia) 3,9
    Crooks (Inglaterra) 3,9
    Monzeglio (Italia) 3,9
    Nausch (Austria) 3,9
    Neco (Brasil) 3,9
    Peucelle (Argentina) 3,9
    Quincoces (España) 3,9
    Rodríguez Andrade (Uruguay) 3,9
    127.- Goodall (Inglaterra) 3,88
    128.- Corbatta (Argentina) 3,64
    Gabetto (Italia) 3,64
    Hanappi (Austria) 3,64
    Jonquet (Francia) 3,64
    Loik (Italia) 3,64
    Meiklejohn (Escocia) 3,64
    Molnar (Hungría) 3,64
    Rial (Argentina) 3,64
    Stephenson, Clem (Inglaterra) 3,64
    Tarasconi (Argentina) 3,64
    Yashin (URSS) 3,64
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  7. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018

    This is a pretty, ummm... evenly balanced season, to put it nicely. There's a reason Yashin managed to snatch the Ballon in 63. In general, though, WS and all the polls seemed to value all-around reputation and class over any specific league accomplishments, so I would include guys like Seeler and Albert.
    +Jurion and Van Himst absolutely, positively need to be there. In fact, I'm convinced Tom basically forgot Belgium exists. :D The defeat of Real Madrid was big news, and Van Himst has the added advantage of being part of the Brazil dismantling.
    +Schnellinger based on Ballon votes and all-around reputation as the best defender around. Too good to be a defender, said the spotlight article.
    +Raymond Kopa for organizing the England win. I didn't know this, but his son also passed away during this time. So if you want to think about poll votes in this way, he could get plenty of sympathy votes plus lifetime achievement bonus.
    +Ian Ure for his performances with Dundee in the EC for at least honorable mentions.
    +Angelo Sormani was highly ranked around this time, so him into honorables. Brian Glanville remarked how the Brazilians must be mad their two best cente-forwards have been confiscated by the Italians.

    -Brazil's tour de flop would work against them. Both Brazil and Santos were the Pele-show during this time. Chop Lima and Pepe.
    Eric Batty on Pepe: "Pepe, the veteran, has never been a class player, packing only a tremendous shot that he produced once at Wembley, and though prepared to drop back and help out in midfield, unintelligent and lacking the finer touches with the ball, as well as the extra yard in pace." That's a pretty mic-dropping evaluation. If there has to be another Santos-player, I'm thinking Zito.
    -Let's return to Ademir Da Guia. ;) Zero mentions in WS, though there was a photo. Notice this Ballon-class performer wasn't included in the tour where Brazil were trying out a ton of future WC-hopefuls. But hey, I'm sure it was because Zagallo had a beef with him.
    -Amancio was seen as being more in the "future great" category than already one of the best.
    -Lev Yashin's heroic FIFA-match happened at the end of 1963, so he should actually be moved to the 63-64 season. I think he was still gathering his reputation after WC-62 during this season.
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  8. ManiacButcher

    ManiacButcher Member

    May 23, 2004
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Well, I understand why Tom placed him on the list. 1963 was the year that he made his debut for Palmeiras and he was the main conductor of the São Paulo state championship title while playing with names like Djalma Santos and Julinho Botelho.
    But hey, this is not european football, why even bother?? A bunch of teams of local villagers, rainforest indian savages and poor people... All the soccer history made here is told by latin liars and baseball-playing commies...
    The only thing that really matters are the holy words written on the great World Soccer.
    Thanks for sharing this brave new light on South American soccer history, Adolf Harokin!! :)
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  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Not bad, we agree on 19 of 23.

    You include Dele Alli, Dani Carvajal, Arjen Robben and Luis Suárez instead of Edinson Cavani, Dani Alves, Kylian Mbappé and Alexis Sánchez.
  10. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Great stuff mate.
  11. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    It's fair, just only referring to Serie A I could certainly see some offensive players so good or better than Dybala (Mertens, Salah, Dzeko, Belotti, Higuaín, Immobile, Gómez, Icardi... I feel that there were many outstanding attackers, but at the same time none of them wonderfully to be a notable absence).

    I think that Dybala raises his chances with his UEFA Champions League case.
  12. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Maybe I've misunderstood something, but he didn't score like that at the start of Serie A. In his first 6 Serie A games he didn't score and did 2 assists.

    I think you mean the following season (2017-18) (10 goals in the first 6 Serie A matches), when he scored 22 goals. He scored half goals in 2016-17 acting a bit more as a creative trequartista behind Higuaín.
  13. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru

    btw, I'm not sure, If I'm in the americentrism band, since some post of mine were the reason to taking out a peruvian champion from the initial 23-list at 1939.
  14. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    The question has not been evaded. I've raised the case of Dybala, or at least the one that seems to be from my point of view, and the reason why his profile seems to have been more praised than Robben's that year in awards or standard considerations in Europe (whether or not they are accurate).

    I have not based on the games against Crotone and Palermo only.

    I only knew the MOTM number of Lega Calcio for Dybala, but I think in this website they use the same source:

    Edin Dzeko (10)
    Dries Mertens (9)
    Lorenzo Insigne (8)
    Mauro Icardi (8)
    Gonzalo Higuaín (9)
  15. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Leeds United AFC
    When Brian Glanville produced his list for The Times in 1997, there were twenty British players in it from this period (1920-59). A comparison of positions, taking only British players into account. Tom's/Titanlux's in black type, Glanville's in red.

    1. Gallacher / 7
    2. Morton / -
    3. Matthews / 1
    4. Bastin / 3
    5. Jackson / 16
    6. Buchan / 9
    7. Dean / 6
    8. Walker / -
    9. Lawton / 5
    10. Jack / 10
    11. Carter / 13
    12. James / 2
    13. Hapgood / 8
    14. McGrory / -
    15. Finney / 4
    16. Andy Wilson / -
    17. Wright / 20

    Numbers 18-25 in Tom's list were not placed by Brian Glanville. The journalist included the following seven players who are not in Tom's Top 25: Edwards 11, Doherty 12, Cullis 14, Hibbs 15, Elisha Scott 17, Swift 18, Mortensen 19.
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  16. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Nov 27, 2017
    Actually, Duncan Edwards did not have the opportunity to demonstrate his quality many years for the tragic reasons that we all know. Tom only had the opportunity to include it in his lists of 1956 and 1957; If he had not died at such an early age, it is certain that he would have become one of the best footballers in history and Tom would have recognized him that way. Mortensen is on two Top 23 lists and in an honorable mention, Doherty and Elisha Scott appeared on two Top 23 lists, Cullis is on a Top 23 and an honorable mention, Swift on a Top 23 and Hibbs does not appear on any list .

    It would be interesting if you could share the source link on the Glanville list. Thank you.
  17. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Leeds United AFC
    There are other factors at play as well. Brian Glanville has always supported Arsenal. James, Bastin, Hapgood and Jack all played for the club. He ranks the first three above World Cup winners Charlton, Moore and Banks.

    Morton and McGrory never played in England and are more highly regarded north of the border.

    Alex James was Scottish not English. The most famous British team to date, inside and outside Britain, had been Chapman's Arsenal, and its best known players were James and Bastin. The most widely celebrated Scottish team were the Wembley Wizards who thrashed England 5-1 at Wembley in 1928. James was also in that side, along with Gallacher, Morton and Alex Jackson.

    There are however sound reasons why he does not appear as often in the annual 23s as his reputation might suggest he should. A combination of injuries, an abrasive personality, and reluctance of his club to release him meant that James only played eight times for Scotland. He also spent four years in the English Second Division with Preston.

    Full Glanville list in next post.
  18. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Leeds United AFC
    Brian Glanville compiled his Top 100 footballers for The Times magazine in 1997. I cannot find a link for it and if there is one it will be behind a paywall. List below.

    It is heavily British-oriented. 34 of the 100 are from the British Isles.

    1. Pele
    2. Di Stefano
    3. Maradona
    4. Cruyff
    5. Beckenbauer
    6. Matthews
    7. Best
    8. Puskas
    9. James
    10. Schiaffino

    11. Garrincha
    12. Sindelar
    13. Platini
    14. van Basten
    15. Gullit
    16. Eusebio
    17. Kopa
    18. Ocwirk
    19. Bastin
    20. Finney

    21. Charles
    22. Lawton
    23. Neeskens
    24. Piola
    25. Dean
    26. Meazza
    27. Gallacher
    28. Varela
    29. Kocsis
    30. Hapgood

    31. Romario
    32. Yashin
    33. Muller
    34. Banks
    35. Charlton
    36. Fritz Walter
    37. Weah
    38. Buchan
    39. Coluna
    40. Nordahl

    41. Sarosi
    42. Liedholm
    43. VR Andrade
    44. Meredith
    45. Moore
    46. Breitner
    47. Didi
    48. Hanappi
    49. Bloomer
    50. Nilton Santos

    51. Krol
    52. Jack
    53. Shilton
    54. Czibor
    55. Edwards
    56. Riva
    57. Charlie Roberts
    58. Hidegkuti
    59. Doherty
    60. Seeler

    61. Law
    62. Carter
    63. Sivori
    64. Rivelino
    65. Cullis
    66. Zamora
    67. Planicka
    68. Baxter
    69. Ademir de Menezes
    70. Orsi

    71. Kempes
    72. Gren
    73. Rossi
    74. Suarez
    75. Hibbs
    76. Alex Jackson
    77. Zagalo
    78. Rivera
    79. Sandro Mazzola
    80. Gento

    81. Baresi
    82. Gerson
    83. Blanchflower
    84. Elisha Scott
    85. Blokhin
    86. Facchetti
    87. Zoff
    88. Swift
    89. John Hansen
    90. Carey

    91. Germano
    92. Boniperti
    93. Mortensen
    94. Baggio
    95. Julinho
    96. Francescoli
    97. Dalglish
    98. Lato
    99. Billy Wright
    100. Ronaldo
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  19. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    All the write-ups are in this thread:

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  20. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I forgot the original list included the entire 63 SA-season with the 62-63 Euro-season. It was said Pele flopped in the league (19/22), and he and Zito spent a lot of time injured. So I figure Zito would be out of the list, after all, and even Pele's Ballon-win might be doubtful? Not that there's a lot of competition. It would leave Rivera as the winner?

    The data sample you have given is not large enough for a reliable assessment. Do you agree with the 60/40 ratio of the original list? What other revisions would you make?
  21. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I was talking about Titina Castillo inclusion in the initial 1939 list.

    Then, I'd said 1937 was a better year for him, and also that in the Copa America 1939, Castillo didn't played in his favourite role (Centrehalf) that should allow him be more instrumental in the team.

    Tom, decided excluding a peruvian champion from the initial list.
  22. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    You didn't answer my questions. :mad:

    How highly do you value Copa 39 as a tournament?
  23. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    With the exception of Neymar, this tallied with my top 4.

    Despite his goals, Cristiano really didn't play very well. That's not to take away from the goals and obviously he played a huge role in Madrid's CL triumph, but watching the games you didn't come away thinking he was that good.

    In contrast Modric and Marcelo were terrific. They didn't have the numbers to back it up entirely but the quality of their play was excellent

    I was torn in terms of the top 3 whether to include Ronaldo or to go with Modric and Marcelo.
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Real Madrid
    How do measure a strikers performance?
    The guy scored 15 goals in a single champions league season at 33 years old for Christ sake(never mind the assists,the iconic moments and the clutch nature of his goals)

    Check the advanced statistics for key passes/long passes and see If modric was even in the top 5 ranked midfielders in Europe let alone Madrid’s best player
  25. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Manchester United FC
    Sorry yes, I meant 17-18 season, which contributed to his vote count for the awards end of 2017 year.
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