Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I have less strong opinions for the 61-62 season, but here's some suggestions, anyway.
    -Overdose on Brazilians, maybe. Yes, they were champions, but it was a dull tournament, and the team wasn't seen as being as strong as 4 years ago. I would have Amarildo and Coutinho share a spot, depending on how high you value WC-performance over performances throughout the season (keeping in mind Coutinho shouldn't be dropped from both here and last season). Amarildo seems mostly like a lucky WC-guy who benefited from playing in the best team and being the "new Pele". Would also settle for just one between Djalma and Nilton.
    -Charlton had a quiet profile for this season, so he could make way.
    -Germano was injured for much of this season, so he could make way, depending on how high you value the EC endgames.
    -The Soviets had a high-profile South American tour, but they were seen as a boring and workmanlike team. Maybe just choose one between Ivanov and Voronin.

    +I would pick Rivera over Altafini. It was said the inclusion of Dino Sani was what helped Milan turn the season around and take the scudetto, so I would add him into honorables.
    +Hungarians: If you want a goalie, I would nominate Grosics (agree with dropping Schrojf). Grosics made a couple of miracle-saves in the tournament (mistakes, too, but so did all the goalies). I could see him get a kind of lifetime achievement nomination. Göröcs and Solymosi had a high profile. So there aren't too many Hungarians, Tichy could make way for one of them.
    +Seminario had a surprisingly high profile around this time, considering what a massive exposure penalty he gets for not being part of any major teams or competitions.
    +Pluskal for at least honorable mentions, though I would put him in the final 23.
     
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  2. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    First off I would like to say that I really enjoy the fact that this thread is still moving forward through history, and my older posts are still promoting discussion. That was the major purpose of starting this thread.

    A couple of thoughts on why I am not active anymore. People take everything so seriously on soccer history forums. Many people have expressed the idea that attempting this type of list is arrogant. That by taking on this exercise I put my opinion above others. My personal view is the opposite. I know that many regular posters here have researched more primary sources and seen more first hand football than I have. I just viewed myself as a person who had enough energy and a willingness to try to be unbiased with the information available to me. I know it is impossible to get this right, even if we could watch all the games from the 1950s there is still not enough cross continent competition to make fair judgements in most years. I enjoyed making the list and I see it as a success as many posters with more knowledge than me have made there cases in this thread. I have been swayed by many arguments made here that appear to have merit. Looking back on my rankings there are many things I would change. For example the Austrian Hof not being included in 58, 59, or 60 is criminal. He was dominating in the league, had some huge performances in the European Cup against some of the most famous teams in the world, and has an amazing goal scoring record with the national team vs some of the top nations in the world. There are many other changes I would make. Just looking back at the 1957 list that was posted and sparked some discussion I am not sure why I dropped some of the Man U and Fiorentina players and my first instinct is that they should be in. In some years there is just not enough space.

    The other major deterrent to my continued activity on the forum is the constant Europe vs South America viewpoints. I am sure that in this thread I have been called both Euro or America centric many times. So many posters view everything through this lens. And if they feel you are not giving a fair shake to their continent they assume you are like them but on the other side, a person who only cares about promoting one continent above the other. It is tiresome. I am American and have European decent, I don’t have a dog in this fight. I am not part of any conspiracies to discredit or promote any continent or nation.

    I said earlier that there were many things I would change but the ballpark figures that were summarized earlier seem appropriate to me, with roughly 55% by nation and 65% by club coming from Europe in the 1950s. If this makes me some type of America centric conspiracy theorist in your eyes so be it. There are many individual posts that I disagree with or find merit in but I don’t have the energy or time to join that fight. The final thing I will say on this is many poster come in off the top with either generalizations and accusations that are off putting and I disagree with. I often find that when the same posters make specific arguments I find them much more reasonable. Maybe if more took the second approach discussions could be more enjoyable.

    I don’t want to end things on a sour note, and I would reiterate that I am glad I started the thread, glad it continued after I did not, it promoted a lot of excellent discussion, and I learned a lot and assume others may have as well.
     
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  3. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    @Perú FC made an overall resume.
    It will be nice to see how many points earned each player.
     
  4. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Resume for Confederations

    Podiums or Top-3
    [​IMG]
    Overall ratio: Europe 1.9 to S.America 1.1 or 62% vs 37%
    Also Mexico got 1 podium (1987) and Liberia 1 podium (1996).


    Nominations or Top-23
    [​IMG]
    Overall ratio: Europe 15.2 to S.America 7.7 or 66% vs 33%
    Also, CAF got 1 nomination (1980s), 3 (1990s), 7 (2000s), 5 (2010s)
    and Concacaf got 4 nominations (1980s) and 2 in the 2010s.
    Asia and Oceania got 0 nominations.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1380 PuckVanHeel, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
    So I'll plead quilty here in all openness.

    Yes, I have seen you as thoroughly biased, and a prime example of the 'double handicap' taking place. Like Dearman, like Peru FC, like comme. Primarily and pretty much those three.

    Telling proof: Romario for his Eredivisie years is included three times, and of course none of his other PSV team mates are ever included. That is, for example, more often MvB or Gullit are included for their Eredivisie years. It is not the same amount, it is even more often, more often than any other Eredivisie player bar Cruijff.

    To me that is so telling, illustrative and incredibly wrong (yes, I thought about international appearances/performances/accomplishments) but I'll not do (another) 'Romario discussion' here.

    But yes, I saw you that way and still do.

    The American soccer scene and media industry is intrinsically linked to middle and south america.
     
  6. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Good Morning. Actually this summary I did as pure personal entertainment that I share with you in case anyone finds it interesting. I do not try to establish a classification of my own. They are the annual classifications that Tom Stevens did at the time and, with the permission of Peru FC. , I will continue accumulating until this year. I have allowed myself the license to establish a score according to the position of each player in said classification. The first classified I awarded 4 points, the second, 3 points and the third, 2. To the rest of the 20 players of the Top 23, I gave them 1 point. To all the players to whom Tom gave an honorable mention, I gave them 0.4 points.
    At the end of each decade all these scores were added and I applied a "regularity coefficient" to reward those who had the most nominations. This coefficient consists of multiplying the total score of the decade by the unit plus 0.1 for each time in the top 23 and 0.05 for each presence in the chapter of the honorable mentions. Thus, for example, a player with a presence in the top 23 in 1942, 1945 (as third place) and 1946 and an honorable mention in 1944, would have a regularity coefficient of 1.35. The total score of that player's decade would be 4.4 x 1.35 = 5.94.
    When I accumulate the results until 1959 I put the score that I get from each player, in case it serves as a major reference.
     
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  7. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I don't blame them (including OP), honestly. IMO, they're all quality posters who legitimately attempt to call it down the line. Unfortunately the Americentrists have muddied the online waters to the degree their distorted viewpoint will affect everybody if people don't know to look out for it.
     
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  8. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Interesting
    it will be nice, to see your results
     
  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Excuse me, I couldn't read all your comments recently for being busy finishing the following list. I'll read them shortly, I see some interesting statistics.

    This is my 2017 Preliminary List:

    AUBAMEYANG, Pierre-Emerick (Gabon & Borussia Dortmund)
    BONUCCI, Leonardo (Italy & Juventus)
    BUFFON, Gianluigi (Italy & Juventus)
    CAVANI, Edinson (Uruguay & Paris Saint-Germain)
    CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal & Real Madrid)
    DANI ALVES (Brazil & Juventus)
    DYBALA, Paulo (Argentina & Juventus)
    HAZARD, Eden (Belgium & Chelsea)
    ISCO (Spain & Real Madrid)
    KANE, Harry (England & Tottenham Hotspur)
    KANTÉ, N'Golo (France & Chelsea)
    KROOS, Toni (Germany & Real Madrid)
    LEWANDOWSKI, Robert (Poland & Bayern Munich)
    MARCELO (Brazil & Real Madrid)
    MBAPPÉ, Kylian (France & AS Monaco)
    MERTENS, Dries (Belgium & Napoli)
    MESSI, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona)
    MODRIC, Luka (Croatia & Real Madrid)
    NEYMAR (Brazil & Barcelona)
    RAMOS, Sergio (Spain & Real Madrid)
    SÁNCHEZ, Alexis (Chile & Arsenal)
    SILVA, Bernardo (Portugal & AS Monaco)
    THIAGO Alcántara (Spain & Bayern Munich)

    Top 3

    1) Lionel Messi
    2-3) Cristiano Ronaldo/Neymar/Luka Modric/Marcelo

    Honorable Mentions

    ADURIZ, Aritz (Spain & Athletic Bilbao)
    AGÜERO, Sergio (Argentina & Manchester City)
    ALDERWEIRELD, Toby (Belgium & Tottenham Hotspur)
    ALEX SANDRO (Brazil & Juventus)
    ALLI, Dele (England & Tottenham Hotspur)
    ALONSO, Marcos (Spain & Chelsea)
    ARTHUR (Brazil & Gremio)
    ASPAS, Iago (Spain & Celta de Vigo)
    AZPILICUETA, César (Spain & Chelsea)
    BAKAYOKO, Tiémoué (France & AS Monaco)
    BELOTTI, Andrea (Italy & Torino)
    CAHILL, Gary (England & Chelsea)
    CALLEJÓN, José María (Spain & Napoli)
    CARVAJAL, Dani (Spain & Real Madrid)
    CASEMIRO (Brazil & Real Madrid)
    CHIELLINI, Giorgio (Italy & Juventus)
    COURTOIS, Thibaut (Belgium & Chelsea)
    COUTINHO, Philippe (Brazil & Liverpool)
    DAVID LUIZ (Brazil & Chelsea)
    DE BRUYNE, Kevin (Belgium & Manchester City)
    DE GEA, David (Spain & Manchester United)
    DEMBÉLÉ, Ousmane (France & Borussia Dortmund)
    DIEGO COSTA (Spain & Chelsea)
    DOLBERG, Kasper (Denmark & Ajax)
    DONNARUMMA, Gianluigi (Italy & AC Milan)
    DOST, Bas (Netherlands & Sporting CP)
    DZEKO, Edin (Bosnia and Herzegovina & AS Roma)
    ERIKSEN, Christian (Denmark & Tottenham Hotspur)
    FABINHO (Brazil & AS Monaco)
    FALCAO, Radamel (Colombia & AS Mónaco)
    FAZIO, Federico (Argentina & AS Roma)
    FILIPE LUÍS (Brazil & Atlético de Madrid)
    FORSBERG, Emil (Sweden & RB Leipzig)
    GLIK, Kamil (Poland & AS Monaco)
    GODÍN, Diego (Uruguay & Atlético de Madrid)
    GÓMEZ, Alejandro (Argentina & Atalanta)
    GRIEZMANN, Antoine (France & Atlético de Madrid)
    HAMSÍK, Marek (Slovakia & Napoli)
    HANDANOVIC, Samir (Slovenia & Inter Milan)
    HECTOR, Jonas (Germany & Köln)
    HERRERA, Ander (Spain & Manchester United)
    HIGUAÍN, Gonzalo (Argentina & Juventus)
    HUMMELS, Mats (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    IBRAHIMOVIC, Zlatan (Sweden & Manchester United)
    ICARDI, Mauro (Argentina & Inter Milan)
    ILLARRAMENDI, Asier (Spain & Real Sociedad)
    IMMOBILE, Ciro (Italy & Lazio)
    INSIGNE, Lorenzo (Italy & Napoli)
    JO (Brazil & Corinthians)
    KEÏTA, Naby (Guinea & RB Leipzig)
    KIMMICH, Joshua (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    LACAZETTE, Alexandre (France & Olympique Lyonnais)
    LAHM, Philipp (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    LLORIS, Hugo (France & Tottenham Hotspur)
    LUAN (Brazil & Gremio)
    LUKAKU, Romelu (Belgium & Everton)
    MANDZUKIC, Mario (Croatia & Juventus)
    MANÉ, Sadio (Senegal & Liverpool)
    MENDY, Benjamin (France & AS Monaco)
    MODESTE, Anthony (France & Köln)
    NAINGGOLAN, Radja (Belgium & AS Roma)
    NAVAS, Keylor (Costa Rica & Real Madrid)
    NEUER, Manuel (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    NZONZI, Steven (France & Sevilla)
    OBLAK, Jan (Slovenia & Atlético de Madrid)
    ÖZIL, Mesut (Germany & Arsenal)
    PIATTI, Pablo (Argentina & Espanyol)
    PIQUÉ, Gerard (Spain & Barcelona)
    PIZZI (Portugal & Benfica)
    PJANIC, Miralem (Bosnia and Herzegovina & Juventus)
    POGBA, Paul (France & Manchester United)
    PULISIC, Christian (United States & Borussia Dortmund)
    RIBÉRY, Franck (France & Bayern Munich)
    ROBBEN, Arjen (Netherlands & Bayern Munich)
    SALAH, Mohamed (Egypt & AS Roma)
    SAND, José (Argentina & Lanús)
    SANDRO (Spain & Málaga)
    SAÚL (Spain & Atlético de Madrid)
    SERI, Jean Michaël (Ivory Coast & Nice)
    SIGURDSSON, Gylfi (Iceland & Swansea City)
    SILVA, David (Spain & Manchester City)
    SMOLOV, Fyodor (Russia & Krasnodar)
    SON Heung-min (South Korea & Tottenham Hotspur)
    SUÁREZ, Luis (Uruguay & Barcelona)
    SUBASIC, Danijel (Croatia & AS Monaco)
    SÜLE, Niklas (Germany & 1899 Hoffenheim)
    SUSO (Spain & AC Milan)
    TER STEGEN, Marc-André (Germany & Barcelona)
    TRIGUEROS, Manu (Spain & Villarreal)
    UMTITI, Samuel (France & Barcelona)
    VERRATTI, Marco (Italy & Paris Saint-Germain)
    WERNER, Timo (Germany & RB Leipzig)

    Thoughts will be appreciated.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Why is Robben not among the 23? He was their best and most dangerous player in the bigger matches (e.g. Real Madrid) and his average kicker grade is also by some margin the best. See Whoscored as well, was fairly productive.

    I agree Lewandowski and Thiago are the other good picks.
     
  11. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Among the main doubts I've in mind is the inclusion of Dani Alves, to whom I've only counted around 14 or 15 matches as starter in Serie A, but was great in the UEFA Champions League in a stellar role during the road to the final of Juventus, besides his performance in the final of the Coppa Italia.

    Another doubt that I have is the exclusion of Luis Suárez and Antoine Griezmann. The numbers of the Uruguayan returned to be exceptional in La Liga (29 goals without penalties (4 more than Cristiano Ronaldo) and 13 assists in 35 matches) and make to leave him out seem insane, but contrary to the statistics it seems to me that a decline in his previous level is not reflected very well and I've noticed that several sources agree with it moving him away from the Spanish League's best XI. Apart from that, he didn't have a good or as productive campaign in the UEFA Champions League and he could only score a double against Bolivia on the international stage.

    I can't criticize the French so much, he seems to me that he carried out a very good campaign on all fronts, but to a lesser extent than in his previous season and it's difficult for me to determine how much that difference is and how much it affects my impression on him. Maybe I'm not appreciating him well.

    It has also been very difficult for me to leave out (and include in the honorable mentions) to Dele Alli, Dani Carvajal, Casemiro, David de Gea, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Arjen Robben and Mohamed Salah.

    As for the podium I think it's a bit safe Messi in 1st place, but then I've serious doubts among the Madridistas Cristiano Ronaldo, Luka Modric and Marcelo and Neymar.
     
  12. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    From my previous comment it can be inferred that he's one of the players that is most difficult for me to leave out, but the reason doesn't have to do with his level, but with the one of the 23 chosen ones (I struggle to see who could he replace).

    I had him previously as the 4th or 5th choice from the Bundesliga (behind Thiago, Lewandowski and Aubameyang and alongside Forsberg) and despite his very good average in WhoScored, I feel that he didn't hit so high in general terms in the UEFA Champions League (practically out of all the official and unofficial mentions that I have reviewed about top players or best XI's).

    Apart from that, certainly what I have seen about him is quite good (great), but not sure what better than any of those 23. Is there a choice that you notice weak or clearly inferior to Robben and why?
     
  13. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Good overall list, however as much as I love the guy I think Messi as clear number 1 is debatable, I think the Juventus performance's work against him and Real were the dominant team in La Liga. Also Marcelo is too high for me, certain games we he has a few assists or a goal gloss over pretty major defensive frailties he shows through the season.
     
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  14. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Sorry. I have not seen if the final list of 2016 published it here. Do we consider the preliminary list as final?
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1390 PuckVanHeel, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
    I don't really see a tangible or meaningful answer here.

    My own perception is colored by watching the 'big' games (RB Leipzig, Dortmund, the CL KO games against Arsenal, Real Madrid) and he was generally the standout guy there. I thought I was maybe subjective there, despite the obvious goals and assists, but that is not only my own view, but generally also the view of kicker (1.0 ratings against Leipzig, Dortmund), WhoScored and heck even comme (the Real Madrid games).





    Even if those bigger games and clutch games distort somewhat, they are also relevant.

    His league rating by kicker was 0.26 higher as the next best outfield player of the league, which is a great margin.

    In the Champions League he was the best rated player of his team (2.63). Better average grade as Lewandowski (the next best) and the other chaps further behind. And he stepped up in the four KO games while a Thiago did not so much.

    Neuer, Lewandowski and himself were the only Bayern players to receive a world class rating.

    He was the 2nd most productive player of his team and of all league players only Lewandowski made it more often in the 'team of the week'.

    He showed his pedigree in the more important and clutch matches. He isn't named 'Robbinho' but luckily not everyone failed to notice. I think if you make an average of his WhoScored ratings, and the ones by kicker, he ends up on top of his team.

    You really should read this:
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/historical-ranking-of-arjen-robben.2087098/#post-37322170


    I disagree. In the knockout games he stood out clearly (2 goals and 1 assist in 4 games; the grades; WhoScored). He was in the group stage also great against PSV and one of the better players (not the best) of his team at home against Atletico.

    Only real 'rival' is Lewandowski but don't overlook here 4 of his 8 goals were penalties (the one against Real Madrid won by Robben ;)). His grade reflects Lewandowski was the best/next best.


    That is not so difficult.

    What did Dybala do, in a lower ranked league, that he didn't? Is 11 goals (incl. 3 penalties) and 7 assists so amazing given his playing style and peripheral importance to the team? Are his 4 goals (incl. 1 penalty) and 0 assists in the CL so amazing? Was his dribbling better? (nope) Other than his famous two goals against Barcelona, there was not a single big match where he produced something. And what did he do for the national team? Nothing.

    Again, this is familiar territory with familiar dynamics at play. Giggs (in 2006-07) or Romario (at PSV) have been included for less.

    I'll also repeat again my problem is not so much the appreciation of these players, but that all the independent parts don't add up and logical coherence is lacking.
     
  16. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    My dear friend and foe (Feyenoord, draft etc),
    It pains me to see so much work and effort put to waste. Why would anyone sing an aria to the deaf? Is it that you love singing so much?
    Why don't you just make your own list?

    There's a saying (by a very wise man): Never argue with a fool. Or one might wonder who the true fool is.

    Take care.
     
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  17. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    My own 23 was:

    Aubameyang, Bernardo Silva, Bonucci, Buffon, Dele Alli, Carvajal, Dybala, Hazard, Isco, Kane, Kante, Kroos, Lewandowski, Marcelo, Mertens, Messi, Modric, Neymar, Ramos, Robben, Ronaldo, Suarez, Thiago Alcantara
     
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  18. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I think 2016/17 might be one of the rare seasons where I'd consider putting Ronaldo ahead of Messi, because of his performances in the CL KO stage.
     
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  19. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I have this for the Bayern KO CL stage and their League games against the Top 6 teams based on ELO. (Only 1 Leipzig game, Bayern already won the title when they faced them the 2nd time)

    Would consider Robben for sure. The only problem with him like usually is that he missed games, but so did Thiago.

    Robben is first in average for all league games on whoscored and kicker too.
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He didn't play in the Champions League but maybe there is a case he was as good/better as Dybala in the league? His goals and assists are both clearly better (no penalties either), his WhoScored rating is better and unlike Dybala did okay/good against the top teams:

    https://www.transfermarkt.com/mohamed-salah/leistungsdaten/spieler/148455/plus/0?saison=2016

    Dribbling wise (1.2) and through-balls (0.2) not so fantastic though and I know his overall game, ball mastery can be lacking sometimes.

    Maybe this is a silly suggestion (and a repeat of the Tevez case/argument). Not sure how to factor in the Africa Cup but 1 is always better than 0 (Dybala) for the national team.

    Was just something I wondered about.
     
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  21. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Oh!, I think I forgot it in this thread, although I already published it in the compilation in my blog: Worldwide Ballon d'Or since 1920.

    The 2016 final list was:

    AUBAMEYANG, Pierre-Emerick (Gabon & Borussia Dortmund)
    BALE, Gareth (Wales & Real Madrid)
    BUFFON, Gianluigi (Italy & Juventus)
    CRISTIANO RONALDO (Portugal & Real Madrid)
    GODÍN, Diego (Uruguay & Atlético de Madrid)
    GRIEZMANN, Antoine (France & Atlético de Madrid)
    HIGUAÍN, Gonzalo (Argentina & Napoli)
    IBRAHIMOVIC, Zlatan (Sweden & Paris Saint-Germain)
    KANTÉ, N'Golo (France & Leicester City)
    LEWANDOWSKI, Robert (Poland & Bayern Munich)
    MAHREZ, Riyad (Algeria & Leicester City)
    MESSI, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona)
    MKHITARYAN, Henrikh (Armenia & Borussia Dortmund)
    MODRIC, Luka (Croatia & Real Madrid)
    MÜLLER, Thomas (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    NAVAS, Keylor (Costa Rica & Real Madrid)
    NEUER, Manuel (Germany & Bayern Munich)
    NEYMAR (Brazil & Barcelona)
    OBLAK, Jan (Slovenia & Atlético de Madrid)
    ÖZIL, Mesut (Germany & Arsenal)
    POGBA, Paul (France & Juventus)
    SUÁREZ, Luis (Uruguay & Barcelona)
    VARDY, Jamie (England & Leicester City)

    Top 3

    1) Luis Suárez
    2) Lionel Messi
    3) Cristiano Ronaldo

    Although I suppose in the revision of the end of the decade I could modify certain details, especially about the 1st place (for the doubt between Suárez and Messi).
     
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  22. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I didn't mean that I didn't believe that he didn't played very well in the UEFA Champions League, but in the different counts that I've read he didn't impact enough to be mentioned among the most outstanding players of the tournament:

    UEFA Champions League positional awards shortlists

    Midfielders: Casemiro, Kroos, Modric
    Pjanic, Thiago, B. Silva, Iniesta, Fabinho, Isco

    Forwards: Dybala, Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo
    Mbappé, Lewandowski, Neymar, Griezmann, Higuaín, Cavani, Mandzukic

    UEFA Champions League Squad of the Season

    Midfielders: Casemiro, Kroos, Modric, Isco, Pjanic, Bakayoko

    Forwards: Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Griezmann, Mbappé, Lewandowski

    Sportskeeda's UEFA Champions League Team of the Season

    Buffon, Dani Alves, Marcelo, Ramos, Bonucci, Casemiro, Thiago, Kroos, Messi, Mbappé and Cristiano Ronaldo

    Substitutes: Navas, Carvajal, Mendy, Chiellini, Godín, Modric, Bakayoko, Griezmann, Neymar, Dybala, Lewandowski

    Of course, I'm not sure of its accuracy and reviewing on my part I suppose that Robben's level had more spectacular peaks than some others there, but not so shocking for not entering to the semifinals, maybe.

    According to WhoScored he was the 18th player with the best average of the tournament, but strangely under others like Marco Reus, José María Giménez, Kevin Kampl, Sime Vrsaljko, Lucas Moura, Sergio Escudero or Ludwig Augustinsson (it's a bit difficult for me to establish the point of comparison).
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1398 PuckVanHeel, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019

    First of all, this 18th place (2nd of his team) in a 'random' tournament is still (a lot) higher than 16 names of your list, including the likes of Dybala, Mertens, Bernardo. What did Dybala do that he didn't? More important: the logical coherence and framework (a point that I'll not elaborate again). Many players like Dybala, Romario, Iniesta or Tevez have been included for less.

    It is also skewed by a late substitute appearance in the group stage (lost 1-0), for which he received a 6.2 rating by WS. Take that one out and over seven games he leapfrogs to #5 overall and joins Thiago.

    His performances and production in KO stages (where he was #1 of his team) fits in a wider pattern:



    edit: can't see the other leg, but this is the first leg for which he received the 'low' ratings (not 'low' in relation to his team-mates).
     
    carlito86 and Perú FC repped this.
  24. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Is not Dybala perceived as one of the main stars of the UEFA Champions League? At least it's what I remember and I notice in the retrospective review.

    In Serie A he certainly didn't shine at par as the main star (probably not over Mertens), but still he accumulated very good matches, 6 Man of the Match awards according to Lega Calcio (vs. Udinese, Lazio, Palermo, Chievo Verona, Genoa and Crotone) and enough to be chosen in the Serie A Team of the Season in the Gran Gala del Calcio. However, up to this point I can agree that the Serie A doesn't represent the maximum in Europe, but is in the Champions League where he seems to accumulate the highest peaks of his season:

    - 3 ESM Team of the Month mentions, just behind Messi (4) and like Cristiano Ronaldo (over Mbappé, Neymar and Griezmann between forwards).

    - 6th in the UEFA Men's Player of the Year award and in the top 3 forwards alongside Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo: 2016-17 UEFA Club Competition awards.

    Personally, apart from his famous match against Barcelona, I think he was also figure against Porto and elevated to be the offensive pillar of the finalist club.

    Is not that a more or less extended perception?

    Top 10 attackers from Europe's top leagues

    I agree that at the international level there were no gravitational performances.
     
  25. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I agree with the point that his performance Barcelona was a big plus given they importance of the game so that counts in his favour but re awards I think Dybala perhaps inflated his position for his start to the 16-17 season where he scored 9 in the first 6 Serie A games which is light years higher ratio than he had ever done before or since, he basically scored over 40% of his Serie A tally for that season in the first six games.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.

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