Because achievements in local leagues don't earn anyone an automatic Ballon spot? Looking at the 72 and 73 names, the Spanish league has 0 nominations, and the English league has 1. Argentinian league has 4 and Brazilian league has 10. Sounds fair?
The point is Ademir da Guia would be one of the last to cut if you want to reduce the number of SAs. The 1972 list has: Ademir Ayala Brindisi Chumpitaz Cubillas Figueroa Jairzinho Pedro Rocha 1973: Ademir Ancheta Babington Brindisi Caszely Luis Pereira Marinho Chagas Pele Valdes I don't know why you bring up the Spanish league as a notable snub for those years, there is nothing that suggest they were particularly great at that point. Neither does for Chile, Peru and Argentina though. England looks underrepresented.
England is generally underrepresented in the official Ballon D'or in the 70s and 80s, when their club football was arguably at their peak. Between 1975 to 1985, 4 different English teams (Leeds, Liverpool, Villa, Forest) made it to 9 finals out of 11, winning 7 times, including the 6 in a row between 77-82. Between 1972-1984, there were 4 different English teams (Liverpool, Spurs, Wolves, Ipswich) played in 6 different UEFA Cup finals, including the '72 final when it was between two English teams. Do you know what was the record for players from English club in the Ballon D'or? Geroge Best finished 3rd in 1971, and Dalglish finished 2nd in 1983, that's it. I haven't gone back and look through this thread rankings for these years yet though. It'd probably much better.
Not much... http://glavisted.blogspot.com/2016/05/worldwide-ballon-dor-since-1920.html (I think it's Tom Stevens' original picks until 1994)
Top 10 Ballon d'Or placings for players from English clubs during the 1970s and 1980s, compared with Tom's Top 23s. It is not quite comparing like with like, as Tom's lists are based on seasons rather than calendar years, and are worldwide rather than Europe-based. Ballon d'Or rankings first in blue type, followed by Tom's list entries in black. 1970: Moore 2, Banks 8= / Moore, Banks, Ball 1971: Best 3, Chivers 8, Moore 10= / Best, Bremner 1972: Banks 7=, Moore 7= / McFarland 1973: Bremner 5 / None 1974: Bremner 9 / Bremner 1975: Todd 9 / Bremner 1976: Keegan 4 / Keegan 1977: Keegan 2 (half year in Germany), Heighway 10=, Hughes 10= / Keegan 1978: Dalglish 8=, Shilton 10 / Dalglish, Shilton 1979: Brady 7=, Trevor Francis 7= / Brady, Dalglish, Robertson, Shilton 1980: Brady 8= (half year in Italy) / Brady, Dalglish, Hoddle, Shilton 1981: Wark 9= / Wark, Souness 1982: None / None 1983: Dalglish 2, Robson 10 / Dalglish, Souness 1984: Rush 4, Souness 6 (half year in Italy), Robson 10 / Rush, Souness, Hansen 1985: Robson 9= / Robson, Ratcliffe, Reid, Southall 1986: Lineker 2 (half year in Spain), Rush 6= / Lineker 1987: Barnes 6=, Robson 9 / Clive Allen, Ratcliffe, Rush, Southall 1988: None / Aldridge, Barnes, Hoddle 1989: Shilton 5 / Barnes, Hoddle, Waddle English-based players fare better in the Ballon d'Or during the 1970s, and better in Tom's lists during the 1980s.
Good work Peter! Like you say not completely like for like due to calendar year vs season, but also due to one being an amalgamation of top 5 votes (resulting in points allocated on that basis) and the other a choice of 23 players (more equivalent to a modern Ballon d'Or shortlist than an old Ballon d'Or results list as per the era in question).
Yeah, La Liga at that point was far from being a top league. It just, since 1973/74 that reopened its borders to foreign players. Before that, was almost a based-local league, considering that Spain failed to qualify to two WCs in a row.
But the Brazilian league was? With its 40 teams of absolute pure diamond it was 10 times superior to Spain and England combined. Nevermind the fact a year later they struggled to find even 11 legit top-class players. Nevermind the fact Brazilian teams achieved nothing even in the Libertadores during this time (losing to teams that had 2-cap fringe players for a team that failed to qualify for a World Cup). It's just more proof of the absolutely golden class throughout the entire continent. I'm surprised the legends in Paraguayan and Colombian soccer have been so unfairly omitted from the list.
The Ballon d'Or rankings shown here are the actual positions that were published each year based on total votes.
Yeah, that's right and I realised that, and my post was just pointing out the different dynamics/considerations between making a list of 23 players, and casting a vote for 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th, if you know what I mean. Some players might be considered by a lot of people worth a place in a 23, but not voted a top 5 player by anyone. Some players could impress some enough to get voted in some top 5s, but not convince a majority in terms of being one of 23 names. Not that it should change a lot in itself I guess, but added to the year/season aspect and as you pointed out the inclusion or non-inclusion of non-Europeans, it's another difference.
With recent 23 player lists being put together by committee as it were, maybe there's not such a big difference anyway, compared to if the same people voted for top 5s and a list of 20 or so players emerged from that, as with the old Ballon d'Or system. Different people being involved in choosing them would also be a factor though obviously (just like it is when comparing Tom's choices to the Ballon d'Or lists anyway). As I understood it Tom was originally aiming for something akin to recent 23 player lists, back-dated for previous years, but just found it easier or more desirable to use seasons.
Yes. Is your suggestion to not include any players from the country that won the WC in 70 and finished 4th in 74?
Cool! Yeah, I have ended up going round the houses a bit explaining I think, when I could have done a better job of making a clear post in the first place, but there was no criticism of your analysis, just an addition of a 3rd factor in terms of why there could be different outcomes (even without majorly different opinions potentially) and a different 'look' in terms some names and the balance between different teams/leagues etc. It was interesting to see the names and differences anyway though, so kudos for your post! And like you said, there was a difference between the 70s and 80s, and the 3rd factor I added probably doesn't explain that entirely anyway (or even at all maybe?).
A strict calendar system over a seasonal system has never made any sense, anyway. The recent Modric-vote is a good example. Your reasoning overwhelms me. Tell me, did those players earn their reputation based on their performances in the league, or was there possibly something else going on in the world of football where they had to prove themselves first? My "suggestion", one more time, is that no player earns an automatic Ballon spot based on league performances only. And before somebody jumps in with more deliberate misunderstanding, I'll add league performances don't automatically disqualify anybody for a Ballon spot, either. What disqualifies Ademir Da Guia is the fact that he simply wasn't seen as being consistently among the top 20 players in the world. That's not to say Ademir wouldn't have gotten a nomination ever (actual Ballon had guys like Ebbe Sand and Nihat in the top 23), but to give the guy more Ballon spots than he had caps shows a severe lack of understanding of the inner functions of the footballing world. Here's another novel idea, 11 (some of whom sucked, in all honesty) players forming the best NT in the world doesn't automatically mean the league they came from is also the strongest in the world. The Brazilian "league" of the time was a hodge-podge 40+ village team competition with a format that made sense to nobody.
I don't mind if it's a calendar year award personally, but it should be clear and the votes collected in January, rather than what it has turned into now which is neither one thing or the other and which is speculated about before the end of the previous season due to the prestige factor etc. Late December was ok enough I guess, as per some of the earlier years. A calendar year system can even focus attention on performances over and above seasonal achievements potentially, but I don't think what we have now is really a best player of the calendar year vote, and in the past it was hard to have that due to lack of availability of games for the journalists (even if some of them travelled around, and saw as much on TV as possible). So maybe switching to an end of season vote would be best going forwards (with voting in July/August).
That's my point. I'm happy that you agree he deserved it in 1972. It might not be the best in the World, there is still absolutely nothing that would suggest the Spanish league was better at that point. You still faced the top teams in the end.
Nah, I wouldn't personally put him in. El Mundo has him in position #5 in 1972 and not included in 1973. I know it's a famously random list from a bunch of baseball-playing commies, but still. Nothing except the thing I just mentioned. Imagine if La Liga was cancelled for next season and they only played some kind of juiced up Copa Del Rey. Is there anyone who wouldn't admit the league had been replaced by some watered-down crap tournament, even if it did have a Clasico final? And then the best players from that competition would automatically earn a Ballon nom every year.
I understand what you mean. The best Brazilian league system is a bit of a cluster******** and seems to change every year. Looks like an US style system for most years. However Palmeiras earned the most points in the first phase though, where they played each team once. That earned them the right to win the SF and Final by drawing - I don't think I've seen such a method used as a tiebreaker ever.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Campeonato_Brasileiro_Série_A I also wanted to point out Palmeiras' having some success vs Santos in the 60s, but they had proven internationals like Julinho, Vava, Djalma Santos on that squad, so maybe ADG was getting along for the ride afterall.
Would you consider putting in any of the players who placed ahead of him though? Yeah their voting often just doesn't make any sense, but I understand that if he was a "sure thing, can't miss" player that year he would have made it regardless of their incompetence.
Here is the accumulated ranking of the 1940s based on Tom Stevens' annual rankings: 1.- Moreno (Argentina) 2.- Zizinho (Brasil) 3.- Mazzola, Valentino (Italia) 4.- Pedernera (Argentina) 5.- Bican (Austria) 6.- García, Atilio (Uruguay) 7.- Martino (Argentina) 8.- Leónidas (Brasil) 9.- Matthews (Inglaterra) Méndez (Argentina) Pontoni (Argentina) 12.- Ademir de Menezes (Brasil) 13.- Varela, Severino (Uruguay) 14.- Deak (Hungría) 15.- Labruna (Argentina) 16.- Sastre (Argentina) Varela, Obdulio (Uruguay) 18.- Boyé (Argentina) 19.- Lawton (Inglaterra) 20.- Gren (Suecia) 21.- Carter (Inglaterra) 22.- Sosa, Carlos (Argentina) 23.- Heleno (Brasil) Salomón (Argentina) Zsengeller (Hungría) 26.- Binder (Austria) 27.- Danilo Alvim (Brasil) Domingos da Guía (Brasil) Gómez, Walter (Uruguay) Jair (Brasil) Loustau (Argentina) 32.- Chico (Brasil) Gabetto (Italia) Loik (Italia) Nordahl (Suecia) Zarra (España) 37.- Mannion (Inglaterra) Mundo (España) 39.- Porta (Uruguay) Puskas (Hungría) Villadóniga (Uruguay)
Accumulating the first three decades of the work of Tom Stevens and ordering the players from highest to lowest score, this would be the ranking between 1920 and 1949. As a curiosity, Europeans: 59.2% (British: 22.3%; Central European: 30.1%); South American: 40.8% (Argentines: 20.4%, Uruguayans: 10.2%, Brazilians: 10.2%). 1.- Moreno (Argentina) 2.- Meazza (Italia) 3.- Sindelar (Austria) 4.- Pesek (Checoslovaquia) 5.- Gallacher, Hugh (Escocia) 6.- Bican (Austria) 7.- Morton (Escocia) 8.- Sarosi (Hungría) 9.- Scarone (Uruguay) 10.- Leónidas (Brasil) 11.- Zizinho (Brasil) 12.- Pedernera (Argentina) 13.- Orsi (Argentina) 14.- Mazzola, Valentino (Italia) 15.- Sastre (Argentina) 16.- Andrade (Uruguay) 17.- Erico (Paraguay) 18.- Bastin (Inglaterra) 19.- Jackson, Alex (Escocia) 20.- Nejedly (Checoslovaquia) 21.- Buchan (Inglaterra) 22.- García, Atilio (Uruguay) 23.- Dean (Inglaterra) 24.- Martino (Argentina) 25.- Walker, Billy (Inglaterra) 26.- Zsengeller (Hungría) 27.- Matthews (Inglaterra) 28.- Zamora, Ricardo (España) 29.- Nasazzi (Uruguay) 30.- Orth (Hungría) 31.- Méndez (Argentina) Pontoni (Argentina) 33.- Varela, Severino (Uruguay) 34.- Lawton (Inglaterra) 35.- Ademir de Menezes (Brasil) 36.- Jack (Inglaterra) 37.- Piola (Italia) 38.- Braine (Bélgica) 39.- Carter (Inglaterra) 40.- Deak (Hungría) 41.- Petrone (Uruguay) 42.- Ferrari (Italia) 43.- James, Alex (Inglaterra) 44.- Hapgood (Inglaterra) 45.- McGrory (Escocia) 46.- Samitier (España) 47.- Domingos da Guía (Brasil 48.- Binder (Austria) 49.- Avar (Hungría) 50.- Monti (Argentina) 51.- Planicka (Checoslovaquia) 52.- Seoane (Argentina) 53.- Labruna (Argentina) 54.- Varela, Obdulio (Uruguay) 55.- Puc (Checoslovaquia) 56.- Braun, Jozsef (Hungría) Friedenreich (Brasil) 58.- Schiavio (Italia) 59.- Ferreyra, Bernabé (Argentina) 60.- Boyé (Argentina) 61.- Szepan (Alemania) 62.- Wilson, Andy (Escocia) 63.- Andreolo (Uruguay) Konrad, Kalman (Hungría) 65.- Lángara (España) 66.- Gren (Suecia) 67.- Brook (Inglaterra) 68.- Drake (Inglaterra) Schall (Austria) Sosa, Carlos (Argentina) Takacs, Jozsef (Hungría) 72.- Porta (Uruguay) 73.- Heleno (Brasil) Libonatti (Argentina) Salomón (Argentina) 76.- Cherro (Argentina) 77.- Morris (Inglaterra) 78.- Kostalek (Checoslovaquia) Svoboda (Checoslovaquia) 80.- Ferreira, Manuel (Argentina) 81.- Blenkinsop (Inglaterra) 82.- García, Enrique (Argentina) 83.- Allemandi (Italia) Crooks (Inglaterra) Danilo Alvim (Brasil) Gómez, Walter (Uruguay) Jair (Brasil) Loustau (Argentina) Monzeglio (Italia) Nausch (Austria) Neco (Brasil) Peucelle (Argentina) Quincoces (España) 94.- Goodall (Inglaterra) 95.- Chico (Brasil) Gabetto (Italia) Loik (Italia) Meiklejohn (Escocia) Molnar (Hungría) Nordahl (Suecia) Stephenson, Clem (Inglaterra) Tarasconi (Argentina) Zarra (España)
I haven't checked their merits or lack thereof for that particular season, but they're all Ballon-level players, so yes?
Since I'm already going through the World Soccer issues year by year, I decided to make a more constructive approach to this thread, too, while all the stuff is still fresh in my mind. It's a bit late since it looks like Tom isn't around anymore, but they're food for thought, anyway, if Peru or anyone else is going to make their own list. I wanted to make a full 23-player list of my own, but then decided the WS-coverage isn't really detailed enough to allow that, so I'll settle for making suggestions. Every suggestion is based on how the players were viewed in World Soccer, as well actual Ballon votes. As Tom Mentioned, the 60-61 season was an interesting and challenging one, because there was so much stuff going on on so many fronts. I would make several changes here. Players to drop: -Benfica: Aguas, Augusto and Germano were mentioned as the top 3 players for Benfica, so I would drop Coluna (especially since he's in the following year). Put back Aguas and Augusto. -Corbatta had no presence in WS, so I would drop him, unless you really feel there should be a token Argie league representative (even then I would pick Sanfilippo). -Too many South Americans in general (you knew this was coming). Amarildo, Didi and Coutinho don't need nominations for both 61 and 62, IMO. -Penarol. A team that didn't yet have a high profile in Europe during this time. This was partly due to their past results in Europe (they didn't convince in a tour around 59-60, and then there's the Real Madrid games). The view was their success was mostly due to a tight defence. Their profile started increasing after the Benfica game, but for now I would decrease their number to one player at most (William Martinez). -Masopust didn't yet seem to have a high profile during this time. These changes would make plenty of room for the following: +Charles, Del Sol and Santamaria, because Tom really wanted to include them, anyway, and I agree. +Gerhard Hanappi as a representative of the Austrian international miracle-season. As soon as Hanappi was gone over the hill, so was Austria. +Gento, Kolev and Szymaniak based on Ballon votes and their all-around high profile during this time.