Here are a number of posts. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-worst-ballon-dor-winner.2012564/page-3#post-31308521 Think the case for Rivaldo is stronger than a Baggio or Riquelme.
Thanks, yes, will be useful for Peru to look at those probably. I was more thinking about whether he should be placed up with Figo etc (or close) and perhaps doubting it, and the Sheringham/Larsson mentions were just to say "did he do a lot more of note, or play better on average than these in the HM list" - and it can be there are differing ideas on that) but yeah I'm not making a big case to take him out the 23 and keep others in. Maybe like him, Baggio and Riquelme might be equally boosted by big/quality moments although Baggio's ratings are good of course (but he doesn't feature in ESM teams wheras Rivaldo did). Riquelme I have not a great idea bout although his Intercintinental Cup display does actually fall in this period in question I suppose so that's one notable positive (equivalent to Rivaldo's dramatic/spectacular booking of Barcelona's CL spot at the end of the season in a different way maybe?).
I don't think you found and posted a Don Balon team of the season for this one did you Puck yet? I guess that'd be useful in order to assess how Rivaldo impacted the audience in Spain overall (I think for the previous season it led me towards the idea of potentially even leaving him out the 23 IIRC). I suppose the way things were done in terms of picking a Foreign Player of the Year and a Spanish one, no direct inference can be gained from awards about Don Balon's view of Figo vs Raul but maybe ratings can help if available...?
To be honest, one of the things I had previously calculated with some certainty was Rivaldo would surely be present in all 6 lists between 1997 and 2002 because I had a very clear impression that he retained a solid consistency during that period and high-caliber international performances. Even in his most difficult season (1999-00), when he had several problems with van Gaal about his role/position, he maintained high numbers and efficiency (10 goals and joint top scorer of the UEFA Champions League and 23 goals in 50 matches in overall season despite playing in an uncomfortable position for him), in addition to being considerably recognized (5 of 9 times voted in the ESM Team of the Month). In the following season (2000-01), with the going of van Gaal, I think Rivaldo regained his game freedoms and his skills became highly relevant again, but I think the decline in the performance of the team which caused his early departure from the UEFA Champions League and his only dramatic 4th place in La Liga contributed to the Brazilian didn't occupy more headlines than those that gave him his famous hat-trick against Valencia. Perhaps the memories of my feelings aren't so reliable, but his numbers are also very good: in La Liga scored 23 goals (5 of them from penalties), only 2 less than Raúl, the top goalscorer, playing as support striker/attacking playmaker, while he also scored 6 goals (without penalties) in the first phase of the UEFA Champions League (3 of them against AC Milan) finishing just only a goal from Raúl, again the top goalscorer.
To be more precise, I'd say that the 1st place would practically have to be decided between Figo and Raúl. I think I agree that Figo was more the catalyst of their team, but I find a bit strange to think giving him a 1st place now when I've no doubt that I saw his best in Barcelona (which I'd also have to reconsider on the 2000's podium).
Thanks. I took a look at the Leeds performance (not sure if I watched at the time but I don't recall it clearly anyway) and yes I can see if that was his typical form then it is not sub-standard for making the 23 or better even. I feel like he'd lost a bit of agility (not for overhead kicks lol, but fluidity in moving with the ball etc perhaps) since say 98, but he still had good and deceptive ideas, instinct and body movements and the way he takes his goal is a great example. He's also playing an integral and central role in that team too yes. I'd taken a look at his goals from that season on Youtube before my question, and noticed a handful of penalties, but a few impressive goals too (not only on the last day!). I can't claim to be any expert regarding his form anyway so it was more an open question, as obviously the likes of Sheringham and Larsson that I mentioned had very impressive seasons themselves, and I wondered actually whether they'd be more consistent that season as I do tend to think Rivaldo's form could be a bit variable even in the same periods and at times he could seem a bit lethargic and his touch not as good as at other times etc (I think his display away to Atletico including his half-way line goal, albeit in defeat, in 97/98, was vastly better than for example a game against Real Madrid in 01/02 - both on Youtube like the Leeds one I think but neither relate to 00/01 of course). So yeah, I understand the consistency point in terms of impacting consecutive seasons notably, but I wasn't sure about consistency and quality of displays (outside of goals) overall through the seasons and particularly after 98/99. I would have assumed a place in the 2002 list might depend on the WC, because I think he was said not to have been in his best form in 01/02 generally, but like I said I'm not an expert and didn't really see enough or read enough even to be very sure. I suppose I was just intrigued as to why he might be deemed so close to a podium (but I guess there are fine margins; I probably also would have assumed Shevchenko could be right up there among 99/00 choices and your explanation made sense in terms of what he brought to the game I think, but I can see how comme could contrast Phillips's omission from the 23....and maybe it can be like that for Rivaldo vs Sheringham/Larsson etc....but if his form is verified as not far below his best then I don't see that I'd be suggesting Rivaldo's removal from the 23 or anything and didn't really think I would be doing that anyway). Seeing where he was placing in Don Balon's ratings or team of the season selections might still be helpful and indicative though I guess....
He was included in the Don Balon team of the season in 1996-97, 1997-98, 1998-99 and 2000-01. In some years the competition was perhaps tougher than in others. In 1998-99 he was put ahead of Fran (Deportivo la Coruna, finished 6th) and Stankovic (Mallorca, 3rd) for example. He was not considered for the top three in his position in 1999-00 and 2001-02. He was a fantastic game winner in some seasons (leadleader said he declined early as an individual, in 2000, and something like his GI chart does bear that out), but not always a great team player. In the way Larsson, Sheringham and Shevchenko were in their particular roles. Larsson helped to get the best out of other players. The 1999 Don Balon guide wrote about him: "Star of the team and one of the great figures of the league. He needs absolute freedom to feel at ease and to perform to the fullest. He has a dribble and powerful shot with the left." He certainly clashed with Van Gaal, who later remarked that if people see Cristiano Ronaldo as selfish and no regard for team shape, that they should have a look at Rivaldo again. As I said above, personally I think Rivaldo has a stronger case for the 23 in 2001 than a Baggio or a Riquelme. But he's also in every list around the 5th to 15th region (Europe wide). Not at the very top (Owen, Figo, Raul etc.) but in a tranche lower. It's a pretty solid case for being included.
Yes, it looks like 99/00 (the 2000 list - I left him out my sketch but can see it's feasible not to still) and 01/02 (the 2002 list - I think it depends heavily on the World Cup probably, but maybe he can complete an inclusion of all '3 Rs') are the most debateable. Probably 1998 and 1999 his best cases for top few/podium possibilities I'd suggest, but I'm understanding a bit more how he could make a case for 2001 even too (I do remember another poster highlighted the positives that season of his performance vs Real Madrid also in a high scoring draw Barca could have won was it after a debateable call, though Figo had notable moments and quality assist IIRC I think in that game too) and 1997 was a good one for him at Deportivo of course and could be an under the radar candidate a bit (IIRC comme decided on a high placing among 96/97 players for the summer to summer period at club and NT level combined).
Potentially 'bad' form at the start of 2001 could relegate him a bit in some votes for 2001 calendar year awards I suppose too to be fair.
Well, I actually agree. Maybe I didn't express it well before, but I was thinking on Rivaldo consecutively in the lists between 1997 and 2002 because he didn't lose protagonism in general terms in a consistent way, although in the last list (about the 2001-02 season) sustained mainly by his performances at the World Cup since I'd definitely say that was the season that marked his decline with Barcelona (despite a very good start). My apologies, I've already made some changes in this respect (Phillips is in that list and Totti is instead of Shevchenko in the top 3), only I expected to publish them here in the final review of the decade (although I've updated it in the blog in which I compile all the lists until now). Yes. Actually, I started a thread requesting such information, but still unanswered. At this point, I feel that it isn't so longer indispensable because my memories are already better detailed by then and there are several other sources, but it would be a very interesting source to support ideas.
Well, perhaps I wouldn't have greater differences. Until now I've thought on this tentative order: 1) Luís Figo 2) Raúl 3) Zinedine Zidane 4) Michael Owen 5) Rivaldo/Francesco Totti Well, that season Riquelme was champion of the Torneo Apertura 2000, although Boca Juniors only had a regular Torneo Clausura 2001, while concentrating all his efforts in achieving the second consecutive championship of the Copa Libertadores (which they did). He was voted as the Argentine Footballer of the Year (best player of the Argentine League) making 10 goals and 10 assists and as the Best Player of the Copa Libertadores Final against Cruz Azul, besides the Intercontinental Cup that you mention against Real Madrid (played in november 2000). At the end of the chronological year (2001) he was voted for first (and only time) as the South American Footballer of the Year (beating his teammate Óscar Córdoba and Romário).
Larsson his years when he was 33-36 years old for Barcelona and then briefly for Manchester United do help to take away some doubts but I'd include him among the 23 for 2001 I think. He has roughly 1 goals per game across all levels that year/season. In the league, in the cup, in Europe and the national team all around 1 goal per game. 62 goals in 60 if we add it all up. It was by a 13 goals margin the most prolific season of his career. He's also all-time topscorer in the UEFA Cup, when it was still somewhat relevant as a competition. Can we really be totally sure it was by a distance markedly worse than a Romario at PSV who never had more than 19 non-penalty goals in a league season? Probably you had seen it but Four Four Two placed Larsson as 4th in 2008 among "best foreigners ever in British football" and they did write it factors in his brief but impressive spell (and immediate adaptation) at Manchester United in 2006-07. For 1995 - 2005 I did immediately think of him as an 'HM' when I made such sketchy list (I had 'best', 'top' and HM category as you maybe remember for 2000 - 2010, with Ronaldinho and Henry as the 'best' candidates). Thoughts?
My first thought and instinct might be to agree he could get a place (and perhaps Sheringham too given being considered worthy of awards in England where the league was by then a contender as top one perhaps, not to say the clear choice as such by any means IMO). But when I'm not making a list (I did have my own attempt, with thought/research put into it for the prior years ofc) it's easy to agree 28 players should make the 23 man list if you know what I mean haha! I included Brian Laudrup in other years, and Peru did at least once IIRC, while a Rangers player. So that sets the precedent in a way, in suggesting players playing in Scotland can feasibly get in (as opposed to perhaps a Stojkovic in Japan not having an easy case to make despite great form?). Of course many players from Scottish football made Tom's lists too, but not exactly apples to apples to compare over all generations.
The 2000-01 season is not only Larsson's most prolific season, but himself seems to think it was the best of his career. When I started to elaborate this list I assumed that this would be his greatest opportunity to appear in one, but finally he has been one of those who I basically had to leave only for the rigid limit of 23 players despite I believe he's at least on the same level as the last I incorporated (the most outstanding of the honorable mentions): Ryan Giggs (Wales & Manchester United) Henrik Larsson (Sweden & Celtic) Bixente Lizarazu (France & Bayern Munich) Javier Saviola (Argentina & River Plate) Mehmet Scholl (Germany & Bayern Munich) Teddy Sheringham (England & Manchester United) Damiano Tommasi (Italy & AS Roma) I think anyone of them has a fair case, but I can't say one of them should replace one of the 23 in the list (a bit difficult between the chosen forwards: Crespo, Henry, Owen, Raúl and Shevchenko). Do you have any idea how you would accommodate him? A weak option in the list?
It's probably tough on defenders to suggest skewing the list towards attackers too much, but how did you feel the centre-backs Ayala, Hyypia and Nesta compared to each other this season/year Peru? Is this considered the/a prime season of Ayala? I have a better idea about Hyypia's level and contributions overall of course, but if looking to make space (without having really thought about my own list this time) maybe I'd be of a mind to compare the two and leave one out. Maybe I also wonder whether Crespo would be a cert for this season/year with other attacking options (maybe even Henry and Shevchenko could be questioned but not sure I'd likely exclude them - the former was still evolving I suppose, and the latter possibly with not quite as good a season as the previous one although more CL impact to be fair), but I haven't even refreshed my memory or researched before adding this comment!
Yeah, possibly Ayala is the one I'd most likely question, but I only remember him in general rather than having a pinpoint accurate overview of when he excelled the most. I'm thinking it might not be surprising if he made the 2004 list, but yes for 2001 if he has a case for a more notable/impressive season that Larsson (as hard as it is to compare defender to attacker and with the knowledge that a few defenders normally do understandably appear in the 23 man shortlists in recent years in reality) then he'd have had to have played very well and been very influential indeed individually. If I assume he might at least be in contention for best centre-backs maybe my attempted best XI and reserve XI (for 00/01 plus 2001 calendar year internationally) might be like this: GK - Kahn (Buffon) RB - Cafu (Babbel) CB - Nesta (Ferdinand) CB - Hyypia (Ayala) LB - R.Carlos (Candela) DM/CM - Vieira (Effenberg) RW/RM - Figo (Beckham) AM/CM - Zidane (Riquelme) LW/LM - Nedved (Pires) SS - Totti (Raul) ST - Owen (Shevchenko) Extra - Baggio So not too much deviance from ESM selections probably. For just an XI with subs to represent a selection for that year as if chosen to play a game, maybe in late 2001: 1 - Kahn 2 - Cafu 3 - R.Carlos 4 - Nesta 5 - Hyypia 6 - Vieira 7 - Figo 8 - Zidane 9 - Owen 10 - Totti 11 - Nedved Subs: 12 - Babbel 13 - Buffon 14 - Ferdinand 15 - Effenberg 16 - Rui Costa 17 - Raul 18 - Larsson So I still left out Rivaldo in both choices in the end, but I do see he probably at least has a good/solid case for a 23 player list. The formation I used probably doesn't suit him so well anyway necessarily. I don't think I'll attempt a list myself still but tend to think it wouldn't deviate much from Peru's choices anyway now.
It's really complicated for me, but I certainly feel more and more that Larsson deserves the mention. I also chose to replace him with a defender and apart from Nesta, who I think showed a somewhat higher category, I definitely couldn't decide between Hyypiä and Ayala only as an observer of their abilities. For the various ratings I've endorsed I think Hyypiä was probably more consistent in all the tournaments he played while Ayala had a progressive growth especially in the final strecht of the UEFA Champions League (I guess that might be the reason he was chosen as the UEFA Club Best Defender of the Year). I guess Hyypiä has the most "merit" for the whole year, so I'll agree with you: Larsson instead of Ayala. I couldn't say when Ayala was better (if in the 2000-01 or 2003-04 season), but I feel he may have had more recognition for his performances in the UEFA Champions League in the first while in the second he was perhaps more consistent throughout the season and he was already considered more a leader of his club. I hope I can put him in that list (2004) (I'm not sure yet) because I feel a certain injustice for leaving him out here. 2001 BAGGIO, Roberto (Italy & Brescia) BECKHAM, David (England & Manchester United) CAFU (Brazil & AS Roma) CRESPO, Hernán (Italy & Lazio) EFFENBERG, Stefan (Germany & Bayern Munich) FIGO, Luís (Portugal & Real Madrid) HENRY, Thierry (France & Arsenal) HYYPIÄ, Sami (Finland & Liverpool) KAHN, Oliver (Germany & Bayern Munich) LARSSON, Henrik (Sweden & Celtic) MENDIETA, Gaizka (Spain & Valencia) NEDVED, Pavel (Czech Republic & Lazio) NESTA, Alessandro (Italy & Lazio) OWEN, Michael (England & Liverpool) RAÚL (Spain & Real Madrid) RIQUELME, Juan Román (Argentina & Boca Juniors) RIVALDO (Brazil & Barcelona) ROBERTO CARLOS (Brazil & Real Madrid) RUI COSTA (Portugal & Fiorentina) SHEVCHENKO, Andriy (Ukraine & AC Milan) TOTTI, Francesco (Italy & AS Roma) VIEIRA, Patrick (France & Arsenal) ZIDANE, Zinedine (France & Juventus) 1) FIGO, Luís 2) RAÚL 3) ZIDANE, Zinedine All lists
Ok Peru - seems reasonable to me, but of course if others still came with arguments another way I am not certain enough to suggest discarding them (not that I would anyway but in other words my own opinion on the replacement option isn't set in stone or informed enough....but yes Larsson for a defender and possibly Ayala seems a fair and realistic enough change probably).
Since I did it for 2001, here is an idea for 2002 too: Kahn (Toldo) Thuram (Cafu) Nesta (Ferdinand) Lucio (Hyypia) R.Carlos (Riise) Baraja (Makelele) Beckham (Ljungberg) Zidane (Ballack) Pires (Giggs) Totti (Bergkamp) Van Nistelrooy (Henry) Extra: Ronaldinho And a select XI with subs (tried to vary things a bit where feasible to add more names): 1 - Kahn 2 - Thuram 3 - R.Carlos 4 - Nesta 5 - Lucio 6 - Baraja 7 - Beckham 8 - Zidane 9 - Van Nistelrooy 10 - Totti 11 - Pires Subs: 12 - Ferrara 13 - Toldo 14 - Edmilson 15 - Ballack 16 - Valeron 17 - Ronaldinho 18 - Ronaldo
And yes, I remember now, Puck did post teams of the season from Don Balon extending into this period, at the bottom of this page: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/la-liga-rankings-1975-93.1813986/page-9 Which also refreshed my memory of Joaquin, and made me feel perhaps I could put him as second option at right wing, with Ljungberg moving to 2nd at left wing (and it sort of makes sense to have two from one club in that position just because Pires had a great season till injury and then Ljungberg took that role and had a great end to the season). But Giggs did have one of his better seasons too in general, and was rated very highly on average by DBS Calcio's sources...so I'm not sure, but Joaquin might just be, along with other Spain internationals, in the discussion for a 23 player selection anyway.
I was pretty uncertain and conflicted again regarding centre-backs I think. Not necessarily convinced about Nesta for this particular season. Maybe Desaiily can even be in the equation, but perhaps not, though I wouldn't rule out that I could have a PL first choice pair in Ferdinand and Hyypia probably. Lucio does seem an obvious one and a likely inclusion in any 23 to me though. The other striking thing might be that I left out Raul, and it could be I still hold back on rating him so high for any years this century (while acknowledging 00/01 is still a good call), and stick to my perception the 90s might have seen his best (the ESM selection tallies helpfully posted yesterday do somewhat point to that too though). For the 2001 list my idea might have even been not only Figo as probable 1st, but then with Zidane and Totti maybe edging Rui Costa and Nedved for podium places - I think domestic performances of Serie A stars were very good that season. And for 2002 (01/02 plus 2002 Intl games) it would probably be Zidane I'd put on top, and then maybe Pires and Van Nistelrooy edging Totti and Ronaldinho for podium places in my estimation.
Hmm, no, I think potentially for a 2002 podium I'd go with Ronaldinho ahead of Van Nistelrooy, who actually got a goal per game at Intl level in the 2001 calendar year but was less productive during 2002.
Good info. To be honest, that Roberto Ayala has been elected in the ideal team of the 2000-01 La Liga causes me doubts about his inclusion/exclusion again because I supported more in his performances in the Champions League than in the local league. That was ranked equally well in Spain could give him a better advantage. @PuckVanHeel and/or @msioux75, I'd be very grateful to know if you've and could provide info on Don Balón's ideal teams during the 21st century such as the scanner.
All of them in my short list for now (Joaquín, Ljungberg and Giggs) (I've Pires as a safe option). Again, I think it's a complicated year. Many seem to have very similar cases from different perspectives.
It's good to read it because I've the same dilemma. Lúcio is my only safe option for now, then I try to solve several questions. Alessandro Nesta was chosen for the third consecutive time as the Serie A Defender of the Year and I've already mentioned him 4 consecutive times in these lists (1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001), but this time I certainly don't find such a solid case to include him automatically. I still think he had very good matches as against Inter Milan at the beginning of the 2002, but not such a striking global brilliance as previously (although I think my impression might have to do with the not so good campaign of Lazio). On the other hand, there's Walter Samuel. Although my impressions only remembered him as a possible candidate since the 2003-04 season, I've noticed very good ratings for him, to the point of seeming to be recognized as the best centre-back of the 2001-02 Serie A and having been chosen in the ESM Team of the Month 3 times. I think he has very good performances, but I still don't know if I'm seeing him from a complacient perspective.