Bit surprised that you throwed Scifo into the mix but yes France Football had him among the top rated players for the World Cup (per Tom Stevens his top 10 average grade list) although I think he was a tad below Gascoigne for example (who was by far the best dribbler of the competition). He was also foreign player of the year in France, when the French league was rising and a few stars were playing there (the main alternative to Serie A, the Spanish top two and Real Madrid in particular, Bayern). I haven't really checked whether that is correct but I did see a few UEFA Cup games from around that time (and this season). He had 5 goals (1 penalty) in this UEFA Cup campaign although not against great opposition. That placed him third in the scorers chart. Overall, thus not only the World Cup, he has probably a stronger case for 1989-90 club season plus 1990 internationals than a Gascoigne. He was also 6th in the Ballon d'Or with his national team exiting at the round of 16. I agree with Peru that Matthaus has to be placed over Maradona in this format, and not because he won. At this point a more impactful, more consistent and influential presence (in the same position). He ticks basically the same boxes, performed alongside similar dimensions, only that they shine a bit brighter (even?). A Baresi ticks slightly different boxes I'd say, for the reasons expressed above.
Yeah, my thoughts on Scifo were similar - the UEFA Cup goals are on Youtube mostly I think. For 1991 using Tom/Peru's method/periods I think similarly I might go with: 1 - Savicevic 2 - Papin 3 - Caniggia or Matthaus But maybe even with more doubt about the order of 1 and 2, and more feasible options for number 3 too.
My feeling about Romário is similar for the 1992-93 season. Unfortunately for me I was still a child and my first memory about the Brazilian was in the 1994 World Cup, so I've to base my opinion completely on a retrospective review and it's difficult for me to inquire very thoroughly about the Dutch League, just only the matches of the Dutch clubs in European competitions. For that reason, watching videos gives me the feeling that Romário showed more spectacular skills than Bergkamp, but I can't say much about their influence and consistency during that season (and general opinion inclines towards the Dutch, I know). My recent impressions might be inclined to this: 1993 1° Baggio 2° Laudrup 3° Bergkamp - Boksic - Stoichkov
I don't know what PDG's ideas are but I can go a long way with this idea. One of the recurring themes is that Laudrup had all the skills in the world but was inconsistent or not important. This was him however at his prime and everything is pointing at that he was important and consistent, and made his team win. I already said something about Baggio and that I don't think he was a better team player. However in the later rounds of the UEFA Cup he showed up, and the two finals were even a lot better than the semi finals (where he was also decisive). He also scored and assisted against all top six opponents in the league. PDG made in the other thread an interesting observation about his grade, and that this is even underwhelming compared to other Ballon d'Or winners (MvB, Matthaus, Papin, Weah) and other attackers or strikers. Overall though I think it is difficult to look past him for this year, this format. That this is not easy is highlighted by the fact that Bergkamp is actually the only player who features in all four top 10 lists of 1992 and 1993 (for Ballon d'Or and FIFA I mean). 3rd, 7th, 2nd and 3rd. Stoichkov and Schmeichel the closest to make it in all four too (2nd, 2nd, 12th and 5th; 5th, 5th, 12th and 4th). Not saying these lists are the best but they were the most famous. Those goals against England in the World Cup qualifiers were real quality imho. There is also a video showing all his national team goals and the comments below notice that he was faster before his Arsenal move (before his injuries at Inter). Luckily there is more and more good stuff around (as with Laudrup). Atm there are interesting debates going on about Robben vs Bergkamp and I agree with those people that this is a more sensible discussion than (what e.g. ex-footballers as Wim Kieft suggested) comparing Robben with MvB (who was strangely voted out of the 60 years Eredivisie team by the public - this country has really gotten insane and can use a dose of relaxing marihuana indeed; funnily this has now become fully legalized thanks to a family member of him). Most tend to be open to his arguments concerning rule changes however. So with 1990 and 1993 now essentially covered I'll think about 1991, 1992 and 1994.
Maybe I should look/research deeper even to try and decide but atm I might be more conflicted on second place for that season/year, with (maybe you agree/know this to be the case) Bergkamp a bit better and more effective for the NT perhaps compared to Laudrup? I think you said once Laudrup's start to 92/93 was perhaps slightly slow and maybe (along with not playing Euro 92, and perhaps not having a really outstanding EC Final despite one potential match-winning assist when Stoichkov hit the post) that cost him some votes for the 92 Ballon d'Or? I do think in general he was in full assist-maestro mode though probably, though maybe 91/92 was better overall still (ratings say yes but fairly marginally). 1 - R.Baggio 2 - Bergkamp or M.Laudrup 4 - Romario (other possible but doubtful contender for 2 or 3) Similarly for 94 with Tom/Peru's method/periods perhaps I go with: 1 - Romario 2 - R.Baggio or Maldini 4 - Cantona (other possible but doubtful contender for 2 or 3) Maybe I don't even see number 1 so clearly ahead either, but with NT too those two seem to be obvious/fair choices probably. Baggio's (good but not great) Serie A ratings for 92/93 and Romario's CL ones for 93/94 indicating the possible route to making a different choice though I guess. So that leaves 92 for me to offer my idea and I'll say: 1 - M.Laudrup 2 - Van Basten 3 - Stoichkov or Bergkamp I notice this has just been uploaded but I haven't watched it yet (Bergkamp vs Auxerre 92/93 Uefa Cup):
I think for this year in the Ballon d'Or and FIFA list there were a few really good performers slipping under the radar a bit, like Roberto Mancini of championship winning Sampdoria (has a very good grade at dbscalcio too, and gazzetta). Also a number of players who got recognized the following two/three years (in FIFA and BdO that is). For the 1991 national team games there was one who was head and shoulders above the rest and that was Papin. However he wasn't among the best footballers perse (not saying he's bad) and it was already noted at the time that club level showed more sophisticated and better rehearsed tactics. Darko Pancev is similar to Papin, but then for club level albeit to a lesser degree outstanding. Agree that of the Red Star players Savicevic has the best papers for top position and he was also good for the national team. It looks as if consistency wise he has to be over Pancev or Prosinecki, but Prosinecki was really good in the semi final and to a lesser extent also the final. On that basis Prosinecki was the only Red Star player to feature in the top 10 of both lists, but agree that the available evidence points towards Savicevic as the best performer over the full season and year (not counting the 1991 supercup, that has become a trademark game of him, which is outside the scope). Prosenicki his headline role was maybe also contingent upon the fact that the players playing ahead of him got closed down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_FIFA_World_Player_of_the_Year So I'd say something like: 1) Savicevic, 2) Papin, 3) Matthaus, Prosinecki, Caniggia, Pancev. Also a nod to Belodedici and Mihaijlovic who were for that team what Busquets is for Barcelona. edit: this is from Gazzetta dello Sport http://football-ratings.blogspot.com/2011/12/memory-lane-serie-1990-91.html
To summarise my idea for the top end for 95 to 98 too (23 players already named ofc though): 95: 1 - Klinsmann 2 - Sammer or LItmanen or Savicevic (ditto 3 and 4 - I'm most satisfied Litmanen is near the top, while Savicevic doesn't have NT games and lacks a really 'full' season more too, while for Sammer I'm still not sure of the complete picture between 94/95 and 95/96) 96: 1 - Weah 2 - Blanc or Litmanen (I see Litmanen as only real rival to Weah so in that sense see him at 2 but feel Blanc is a punt that might be feasible too when factoring Euro 96 significantly and depending just how imperssed I'd be if seeing all his end of season 95/96 club games where I think he was more of a proper libero than for France and surely key in helping Auxerre win the championship) 3 - Litmanen or Sammer or Blanc 97: 1 - Ronaldo 2 - Zola 3 - Suker or Bergkamp or perhaps at a stretch Zidane 98: 1 - Ronaldo 2 - Bergkamp 3 - Zidane probably, or Rivaldo or Del Piero And for 99 like I said I was really not sure which ones put in the 23 from many options (and I intended to stop the 23 player lists soon anyway, to let Peru carry on with his own more from scratch) I think I have a top 3 in mind: 1 - Rivaldo 2 - Shevchenko 3 - Figo (Maybe the Copa America helps to decide on Rivaldo at number 1)
About to finish my first sketch list for 1997, I've to say exactly the same. Apparently I'll end up with 7 Real Madrid players included and I find it too strange because, in theory, for a single club to take up almost a third of the list should have been a very dominant on all fronts in the season and that's not the case, however, one by one I think their cases are very solid. I've to suppose an idea like you expose.
Very interesting point. From my retrospective review I think I perceive very well the nuances of your idea. I already had similar impressions on the matter (a kind of irregular season to analyze individualities) and I'm not so convinced by the World Cup in Italy for the order relation: 1° Matthäus (Champion) 2° Maradona (Runner-up) 3° Baresi (3rd Place) Maybe it's more a coincidence (or maybe my subconscious). I consider Maradona almost a wild car in this uncertain case because I think he had several genius moments during the conquest of Serie A with Napoli and a very stellar role at that side, although apparently it's also true that just by changing small events the initial reference from which to base an opinion could have left him out instead of a player like van Basten. What happens is that I also feel that under a certain perspective in which a set of geniuses and influence on a specific team have a greater importance Maradona could even 1st. It's difficult for me to face feelings with uniformed and structured criteria here.
I could easily see Maldini in that top 3, but seems a bit strange that immediately afterwards you don't consider Stoichkov. Could you expand a little on your impression of him that season?
I'm guessing actually this could be the reverse case to 96, and AD78 might feel I have Cantona too high now (in comparison to Stoichkov indeed)!, but as I've said elsewhere I do think isolating that season, although he was already very influential in the previous one, goes very much in his favour, unlike a 1994 calendar year list for example. Talking of genius (as you did with Maradona) I feel Cantona had various moments that fit that description in a football sense probably, and was also very much a 'string puller' that aided the Man United style of play in terms of cohesion. Against his case are that it was isolated to the English league, and he did have some sendings off too (whether Stoichkov did that season too I'd need to check). So it's probably more that I'm putting Cantona ahead, moreso than saying Stoichkov was clearly better in 91/92 than 93/94 (the latter does seem better at Intl level too, even late in the year when he scored against Wales for example too which does fall in the scope of 1994 Intl games). I know he was a big part of Barcelona's success (which was I think a team effort very much, and with a few stand-out star players, still including Laudrup who of course made a great impression on Romario himself too). I know some ratings even favour Stoichkov over Romario, but in the end I think even at club level Romario's expert scoring makes his case and then I do think his WC was better overall (I know you don't question Romario over Stoichkov though). I know he was clearly very effective for Barca (except in the CL Final anyway; likewise Romario) and used his speed and dynamism to score some individual goals and also play his part in the service of Romario from the wide areas at times (they also linked together very effectively vs Man United in 94/95 but that's not to be considered here for 1994). He's I think with the likes of Hagi (whose case is more difficult to make because he played in Serie B) as notable players of 93/94 (+ WC), but yes Cantona's case was quite compelling to me, and of course I did witness that more closely first hand (Giggs I also don't have so very far behind I think again btw).
It will be good to know what PDG thinks but in comparison to Matthaus (and I agree that probably none were as talented as Maradona although in a way difficult to compare a defender or all-rounder to him) I do think his "influence" was on the wane. As I clarified above, in my view Matthaus played about the same position and performed in the same competitions, only (a bit) brighter in all. In all available match grades (La Repubblica, Guerin Sportivo - both available on the football ratings website; DBScalcio) Matthaus is put significantly ahead. On top of that, Matthaus scored 10 non-PK goals in the league and Maradona 9 non-PK goals. (with regards to Matthaus vs Baresi there's not a consensus, as well as some other league players) There are also a few modern statistical metrics showing that his influence declined considerably (next to other Serie A players; but also next to all other multiple Ballon d'Or winners except Keegan and Rummenigge). That might appear as a lot of inaccessible abracadabra, but in a more accessible example: he missed the first four league games of the season, Napoli was first in the league table after those four games (won three, drew one). Also later he missed three, and they won two. Of course the team results were there and it would be foolish to ignore it. It sets the parameters of the assessment. But both for club and at the World Cup he had a handful (no pun intended) unusual things helping him - for ex. the handball vs USSR - exactly because he was Maradona, and because he was the player of the 1980s. Because he was a dream for people, and a dream for the guys running the show (or some of those dudes, at least). Recently leadleader had a thread where he showed his increasing relative inconsistency over time, with videos made by the fans themselves. What he observes there (and I said in that thread he's exaggerating it in my view) is even more true towards the very end of the 1980s. It is somewhat difficult and tricky to look at 'neutral' articles. Also thanks to actions by himself it is a Gordian Knot (SI article below also goes into how he dealt with the press and match-graders). But possibly the American perspective is a useful and mostly neutral one, for the most part without confounding variables. An American assessment about his form (and also think about the soccer demographics/background in that country). https://www.si.com/vault/1990/05/14...is-which-maradona-will-show-for-the-world-cup I might see where one is coming from in the comparison with Baresi (or also a Scifo for that matter), since Baresi ticks different boxes and played a different position, but next to Matthaus I don't see the idea for the #1 spot. Because, like I said, Matthaus played on the same position - albeit with different skillset - and has the same performance profile, only brighter in both the league, domestic cup and world cup. Despite the superior 'talent' I tend to go along with PDGs selection, for the top two.
Yeah, I don't want to try and suggest I/we can make a really definitive/authoritative judgement, but probably my estimate factored in I'd say a better WC for all those I named except MvB, despite obviously the moment of genius or we could just say quality/inspiration to make the goal for Caniggia vs Brazil. And aside from that, I felt that while in his prime he was the pick of those players in best form (mVB also extremely good though), by that time he was not really in his prime while arguably all of those were. Perhaps from what I saw, the balance shifting from some inspirational assists around 1988 towards more in the way of set-piece assists (not to say those are worthless by any means, but I suppose many players can be good at them). Players like Alemao and Careca surely helped him win Serie A (as vice versa too ofc) so maybe the 'one man team' narrative fits least that time compared to other major trophies he won? (not that it's ever 100% true of course, but one great player can make all the difference, sure). I don't really have enough insight into possible influence being put on jounalists re: match grades, or 'match fixing' type things affecting the outcome of the championship, but obviously they could play a part potentially yes. If I named an extra player (like an 'original' Ballon d'Or vote except not based so much on calendar year in full or nearly full) might it be him though? Yes I think it could well be. I wouldn't be sure, but I'm not sure I should keep him out a top 3 either really, and it's not a shock to see Peru (and Tom too was it?) haven't left him out a proposed top 3.
Yes you express it quite well but what I really meant to say is that one has to look past the unusual events and it does psychologically help (has an effect on referees and the ones appointing them; remember that those weren't trained professionals until 1992) that he was who he was, at least arguably so. Technically also what happened to other teams, the fact that Milan got three red cards (very, very unusual) doesn't make him better or worse.
Yes, true, if someone tries to look into his form and not the fact Napoli were Champions at the end, then it shouldn't make any difference in that sense. I know Peru indicated he knew that the Championship could easily have gone to Milan anyway (just as vice versa in 1988 I suppose - whatever influences were or weren't exerted I think we can say for sure both times it was a close run thing between Milan and Napoli).
One thing that struck my eye a while ago is that France Football didn't make a remark about Romario when Stoichkov won the Ballon d'Or in 1994. Unlike Belanov-Careca-Maradona in 1986 and Keegan-Kempes in 1978. Then I started to search further and I indeed saw two Guerin Sportivo articles (two issues that I had for the Serie A grades) with remarks about Stoichkov as best attacker playing in the European leagues at the moment. I think it is difficult to look past Romario his skill, who was playing on a higher level than Stoichkov or half-injured Baggio (who was bad in the group stage) at the World Cup. But Stoichkov was likely about as good in the league (Don Balon thought better; his end-product G+A is comparable to Romario indeed) and certainly two classes better in the Champions League. He was possibly the best forward in the CL+UC+CWC combined, at least in the Champions League. I have some reservations about Baggio, esp. club but also the World Cup (OPTA stats are not great). 1. Romario (Stoichkov) 2. Stoichkov 3. Maldini (Baggio, Cantona) Need to research better for Baggio perhaps. Were there matches that caught your eye? Or match ratings or other votes? (maybe easy to conflate with 1993). Also here maybe a few that went under the radar but surfaced in the subsequent years (Weah, Litmanen) or re-valued again (Bergkamp, Klinsmann). Weah did win the 1994 African Ballon d'Or, also organized by FF. From what I saw that made sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FIFA_World_Player_of_the_Year
These are maybe two of the most notable for Baggio? It might be worth trying to count up assists and (shown) chances created using individual videos like the top one (no overall Juve 93/94 available video I don't think). One thing that might go against him a bit I suppose is contributions for Italy in 93/94 during 1993 are not relevant for this thread. I think when he was handed the Ballon d'Or he was possibly still thought of as best in the world. Gullit might even be considered, just like Mancini for 1991.
He has a decent number of spectacular goals, including free-kicks. But a lot of penalties overall in his tally too.
I meant they are not relevant for the 1994 selections anyway, of course! This is another game where his inputs are crucial to an away win (I'm assuming he probably picked out Conte, but anyway a nice assist with the wingplay and cross before his goals too - one being a penalty but with involvement by him in build-up with the key/cutting pass): The goal at Inter (swerving volley) helped earn a point for example too, although at the end of the season I guess that didn't make much difference. But I don't really feel like he's challenging Romario for 1st place so much (especially with contributions for Italy during 1993 like assists vs Scotland taken out), but more like being one feasible choice for 2nd place (not to try to say everyone has to agree on Romario 1st although I suspect there might be a lot of common agreement and might have been at the time as indicated by awards albeit calendar year ones - the voters mostly factored what he did before and in the summer I'd be fairly sure....and as often/always some or all of his play and goals from the earlier part of 93/94 might have come into their minds too, unless certain voters really did stick to just the calendar year to date when they voted).
Thanks, this is one of the games I haven't seen. I will watch that in full. I saw that that Periodic Table book was also wondering "what all the fuss is about" with regards to Baggio and his games in his pomp, and how effectual he was. For 1993 as a whole I fully understand now because of his UEFA Cup run and his goals for the national team. Also this game for example:
Just to clarify that I still think of him as probably the stand out player of the 1990s (1990 - 2000) but that this is only about ~ 1993 to 1995 roughly. Seen over a longer stretch he's still my pick (Maldini, Keane and Bergkamp also very good options, which Ballon d'Or also bears out; not the least they were valuable in years where they or their clubs weren't at their very best.). Anyway, maybe Peru FC is also thinking of 1993-94 games. http://inbedwithmaradona.com/journal/2017/2/17/pasadena-to-bordeaux-the-redemption-of-roberto-baggio
That's a nice piece and insightful/detailed I think. @leadleader might like to see it, after asking what he did on the other thread re: ratings too. This bit stands out as feasible 'excuse' for inconsistency in his best times maybe (but yes it doesn't mean he should be judged on what he could have done otherwise when it comes to threads like this): "By his own admission, due to the precariousness of his limbs, Baggio was never match fit for more than three or four games per season" Some sort of parallel to Van Basten there perhaps like I suggested before. Interesting that he might have partnered MvB in Milan too (also at Fiorentina who had wanted to sign Van Basten earlier too). Potentially as good as most/all number 9 and 10 partnerships all-time (if not for the fitness effect anyway). Ancelotti also sold Zola to Chelsea of course, so indeed didn't see the need for a trequarista at that stage as a manager it seems (Gullit was not really that so I can see the Sacchi-team reasoning there - but Milan in his time were still comparatively attacking and entertaining/open in that way for an Italian side). It's good that we don't always agree on everything I think lol (also Baggio/Stoichkov for the 94 list potentially) or see completely eye to eye as it were, but probably I pick Giggs as a Man United player for the 90's over Keane (and over Cantona if the longer/whole period is considered, as you were doing in that exercise ofc, rather than only peak form). Maybe Schmeichel too but hard to compare a GK's impact the same way.
Now I go back and look at this, firstly I see why I repped it, and secondly I remember that indeed Rai could be in the mix for the podium (I still have the least overall info/footage on him compared to the others I'm sure though). As discussed before, maybe the last top 3/5 case for a South America based player (pending Riquelme, Neymar etc having an outside case occasionally maybe) although looking at 1997 I did think Romario might well be up with the likes of Figo and Raul on the fringes of possible top choices at least. I'm sure Rijkaard, Maldini, Baresi of Milan can all be close for 1992 too for example (and in that sense I remember Puck's suggestion of Milan of 91/92 for the Fantasy Club tournament threads did have merit definitely!), but Tom's 5 choices do seem very good to me. If I complete 5 choices for each year for the 90's period after my previous post maybe I suggest Maradona indeed for 90, then also Pancev (1991), Cantona (1993), Hagi (1994), Vialli (1995), Maldini (1996) and actually maybe both Beckham and Yorke of Man United indeed (1999) as we are talking of the 98/99 season in full.
Fitness is a good point but then it's still strange that he in his best years (also age-wise) wasn't that well rated, even compared to a 'lesser' year of other star forwards. Then in his thirties at Bologna and Brescia he's suddenly very well rated. Your ideas? I have sympathy for these views but it has to be remarked too that there's an overwhelming consensus for Stoichkov and MvB as top two. Ballon d'Or, FIFA, Rec.sport.soccer had MvB as #1 and Stoichkov as #2. Michael Laudrup wasn't close to the podium. World Soccer had MvB as #1 and Stoichkov not in the top 15 (Bergkamp as #2); the Onze readers vote had Stoichkov #1 and MvB at #2 with two percentage points behind (i.e. very close). Give a shout if I forget one, but in none of those Laudrup was close to the podium. The question arises why that is. For the domestic league and domestic cup the evidence is pointing at M. Laudrup, but remarks by FF voters also reveal that Stoichkov was thought as the better and more decisive performer in the semi final and final of the European Cup. M. Laudrup is also punished for not being there at the euros. MvB wasn't playing in Europe, but he didn't play in the games that got Milan banned. It also helps that he and Stoichkov had a strong start of 1992-93: http://www.bdfutbol.com/es/p/j1037.html?temp=1992-93 Also for the national team (Stoichkov vs France in late 1992; MvB vs Italy in late 1992, thus also against his team mates!). Meanwhile, Laudrup wasn't playing. France Football shows MvB with solid ratings for euro 1992. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-players-of-euro-92.2018223/page-2#post-34914846 So I think the question needs to be asked why M. Laudrup wasn't put in that company by all awards. Might be wrong, might be right. Potentially Stoichkov remains a solid choice for #2. It's easy to think that MvB was (predominantly) a product of a super team. Yet, the goals and unbeaten streak dried up after his injury despite many solid replacements (Gullit, Papin, Simone, Massaro, Savicevic, Raducioiu). The involvement - any arguable involvement - into the Calciopoli scheme started late 1993/early 1994 it was later revealed (and evolved with the years). Conclusion: Overwhelming consensus appears to be for MvB and Stoichkov as #1 and #2, a consensus that was not as self-evident and recurring as it is today. Agree that Laudrup and Bergkamp are the best alternatives. What are Laudrup his best games in the EC? This was Laudrup in the 'de facto' semi final against Benfica: The crucial play off against Kaiserslautern: Bergkamp in the UEFA Cup final: Unfortunately no compilation of his euro 1992 campaign (where he was dribbling well). Although enormously helped by the space that his team mates created, I believe he was among the better players there, maybe the best.
Yeah, it's fair to say that 'mystery' (although any rating of over 6.2 is getting into ballpark territory of very good probably) re: Baggio is intriguing - whether he played a more conservative style/role in later years is perhaps a factor. leadleader suggested that the 'hero/legend' factor could make the jounalists become more sympathetic to older-age Baggio in effect I think - possible that can happen. Laudrup was great vs Dynamo Kiev at home certainly (you saw that before I remember). Him and Stoichkov split the domestic Spanish awards didn't they (msioux I think or yourself posted the rating list with Laudrup on top). I suppose Laudrup particularly impresses me as a player too, and I wouldn't want to try to over-write consensus, but I suppose should also offer some personal idea and not just be a data analyst etc if you know what I mean.....unless like on that other thread I literally am listing ratings and suchlike. I suppose getting the balance right is tricky, but yes while I think it might be feasible to suggest Laudrup ahead, I certainly don't say rule-out Stoichkov (not that I would have so much influence anyway lol!). I do feel that several Barca players cited Laudrup as the genius of the team (including Stoichkov himself, but eg Bakero) and picking one season as his best this might be it, all things considered. Some Bergkamp dribbling/control Euro 92 clips might be scattered on other videos IIRC (possibly on that channel you posted recently that had been taken down).