Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Henning Jensen was no.1 Bundesliga foreigner on 1975/76 by Kicker-Rangliste. He got WK-1 & IK-1, but Simonsen had only WK-2 & K-8. also I think Bonhof must be in top 23.
     
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  2. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I think Cubillas has a good shout, he was now in Portugal with Porto and scored 28 league goals and 36 in all competitions, given he was not eligble for thr Ballon d'or, and not allegable for SA PoTY as he was playing outside of SA he may have dropped of the radar, he had a great season though.

    I do agree with the top three though this year although the others you mentioned in for top five had a good case, I would say getting a top 10 for this year is more difficult as a bit of a drop from the first five or six to the rest.
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Oh OK. Then I understand this sentence: "In Europe things are a bit muddled with no clear cut top players." Defensive record of Beckenbauer (both for national team and for club) is not as strong as it was in many other years. It's interesting to hear the disagreements/arguments between Jackie Charlton and the lead commentator during the 1976EC final (as an aside).

    Other than Beckenbauer, I think Keegan, Platini, Cruijff, Rensenbrink and Vogts were the best (not necessarily in that order). For European players. Looking at the goals + assists in big games as well. All of those played some very strong teams and delivered while winning or losing.

    Zico is easy to overestimate. His numbers are somewhat inflated by scoring 11-13 penalties (at least). I don't dispute he has a strong record (except for his club against international teams, arguably), but I wonder how many international observers and experts saw him as one of the world's best players by that point. He wasn't playing for the 'wrong' low-key teams, agents and competitions. He did become the best paid player of the Brazilian league, for sure, at the end of 1976 (December 1976). I agree Rivellino should likely be placed over him.

    My 2c.

    Simonsen is not a strange inclusion (someone had to score and create goals for the domestic champions...), but of course above all a man for 1976-77 and the 1977 calender year.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #505 PuckVanHeel, Apr 20, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
    Nice call for Dzajic by the way. He didn't play in Europe for his club this time but he was scoring well and international magazines noticed it (particularly 1976-77 and at end of calendar year). In the calendar year as a whole he scored 20 goals in the league.

    He only played two national team games in 1976 but he had direct contributions in both (free kick and goal).




    Viktor, Ondrus and Nehoda were the outstanding players imho. It did not help them, probably, that they had to show their abilities in torrential rain (in one of the two matches played). Maybe it helped them to win the semi final (possibly advantageous for them, also the type of challenges in the match) but not for showing abilities other than the goalkeeper who showed it in both matches.
     
  5. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    By 1976 Zico has risen to the level of biggest idol in Brazil, enough of a reference to be considered arguably top five in the world.

    http://apaixonafutebol.blogspot.com/2012/09/o-jovem-zico-parte-2-de-1973-1979.html
     
  6. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Thanks for this, some of these old threads are getting hard to find as all the links in the stickied thread are not working.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #508 PuckVanHeel, Apr 20, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
    Really disagree with this 'by default' reasoning; just as with the other (Brazilian) players, domestic performances in itself are not enough. Idolatry isn't always entirely related to performances either, same in Brazil and especially for that club team at the time.

    By the way, his 'Placar' ratings (not included in Bola de Prata as well) are not spectacular either for this specific year, compared to other/later years. So there's really some logic beneath it (even your favorite Vegan10 argued/showed so). In later years he has also the international performances for his club, be it in 'friendlies' or in competitions. Zico has been subjected to great (upward) revisionism since the masses-driven internet age started.

    Your link doesn't show what you claim. It has pictures and that is all. If you can show something else, how he's (inter)nationally regarded by 1976, that would be nice.

    N.B. I know that match grades for attackers can sometimes have oddities, even by so called 'reputable' magazines.

    edit: even the title of the photo collection doesn't match with the proposition.
     
  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The title of the blog post itself says it:

    O JOVEM ZICO ( PARTE 2 ) DE 1974 A 1976 - A ASCENSÃO DE UM ÍDOLO

     
  9. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    What are your thoughts on Geels this year?

    He had a high ballon d'or rating of 6th but I feel this may be influenced by the fact he scored over ten UEFA Cup goals between Sept and November 75, i.e just before voting, as opposed to his 74-75 season as a whole?
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #511 PuckVanHeel, Apr 20, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
    It's a bit too high, but comments reveal he got it for his surrealistic numbers across all levels (he only started two games for the NT though). I do think those record-breaking European goals served as a primer, and helped a great deal. But none of the voters make a specific remark about it... They remark his numbers and ability/skill. He was the european silver boot winner of 1974-75.

    edit: in 1975 he also scored 5 goals in one match against Feyenoord, which is still a record (for an Ajax player).
     
  11. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1977

    Bertoni, Ricardo (Independiente, Argentina)
    Bettega, Roberto (Juventus, Italy)
    Bochini, Ricardo (Independiente, Argentina)
    Causio, Franco (Juventus, Italy)
    Cerezo, Toninho (Atletico Mineiro, Brazil)
    Cruyff, Johan (Barcelona, Netherlands)
    Cubillas, Teófilo (Alianza Lima, Peru)
    Fillol, Ubaldo (River Plate, Argentina)
    Fischer, Klaus (Schalke, Germany)
    Gatti, Hugo (Boca Junior, Argentina)
    Hughes, Emlyn (Liverpool, England)
    Keegan, Kevin (Liverpool, England)
    Nyilasi, Tibor (Ferencvaros, Hungary)
    Passarella, Daniel (River Plate, Argentina)
    Pereira, Luis (Atletico Madrid, Brazil)
    Platini, Michele (Nancy, France)
    Reinaldo (Atletico Mineiro, Brazil)
    Rensenbrink, Rob (Anderlecht, Netherlands)
    Roberto Dinamite (Vasco da Gama, Brazil)
    Simonsen, Allan (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Denmark)
    Velasquez, Jose (Alianza Lima, Peru)
    Vogts, Berti (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)
    Zico (Flamengo, Brazil)

    Honorable Mention: Dirceu, Marco Antonio, Ze Maria, Waldir Peres, Chicão, Darío Pereyra, Serginho Chulapa, Eder, Paulo Cézar Caju, Rivellino, Joãozinho, Nelinho, Roberto Mouzo, Alberto Tarantini, Rene Houseman, Juan Carlos Oblitas, Hugo Sotil, Hans Krankl, Ray Kennedy, Ray Clemence, Marius Trésor, László Fazekas, Marco Tardelli, Dino Zoff, Claudio Gentile, Gaetano Scirea, Romeo Benetti, Francesco Graziani, Giancarlo Antognoni, Ruud Geels, Ruud Krol, Kazimierz Deyna, Grzegorz Lato, Danny McGrain, Kenny Dalglish, Manfred Kaltz, Rainer Bonhof, Dieter Müller , Sepp Maier, Felix Magath, Rubén Ayala, Johan Neeskens, Mario Kempes, Juanito

    Another year where the South American Player of the year award makes no sense. Rienaldo was a force of nature and Mineiro dominated the Brazilian Championships, finishing the tournament undefeated but in second place. They lost the final in a 0-0 shootout and Reinaldo was not allowed to play for political reasons after scoring 28 goals in 18 games in the tournament. Again not sure why Zico rated so highly for the award. Did not win state or national titles, only played about half the internationals and scored most of his goals in a route of Bolivia. Zico seems overrated in 76 and 77 and underrated in 74 and 75. Bertoni seems to have had a great season for club and country and I would have him higher that many of the people above him on the SAPOTY award.

    In Europe there is group of about 5 at the same level on top. Cryuff and Keegan edged it for me with Bettega, Platini, and Simonsen right behind.
     
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  12. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Zico didn't win any major title, but Cruyff also couldn't lift trophy. It's not fair. I guess Simonsen is better candidate. By the way, It seems El Mundo's SA PoY had not considered Honours. Not only 1977 Zico, also many winners don't have trophies.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #514 PuckVanHeel, Apr 21, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2016
    It's right that the SAPOTY (more so than the EPOTY of those decades) didn't consider team honors a lot, but individual performance wise Zico doesn't tick the same number of boxes as some others (or Simonsen).

    Zico was well-rated domestically, especially next to 1976 (Bola de Prata all-star team, 4th best rated 'Ponta de Lanca' by Placar), and his numbers were inflated by only six penalties this year in Carioca (2 penalties for Brazil), but didn't have the international performances. He disappointed against England and West Germany in 1977 (that was the overwhelming consensus) - no goals or assists either. He scored his international goals against Colombia, Bolivia and Scotland. He didn't score internationally for his club (competitively or in friendlies). Tall order to beat Keegan in this dimension, or Simonsen, from an individual delivery perspective. Despite that, it is probable that Zico had improved as a player compared to 1976 (in individual honors and in production, with the half amount of penalties).

    Someone as Cruijff also played well domestically (player of the season by three different publications - and some quite decent talent passed by the league in 1977 and 1978), assisted and scored well (not inflated by penalties). His team came one point short for the domestic title, aided by a (controversial) three match ban where Barcelona lost five points. As a non-naturalized foreigner he was ineligible to play in the 1976-77 cup (it was opened for foreigners in 1977-78, and then Barcelona won). He delivered vintage performances against England, and twice (in qualifiers) against a fairly good Belgium team whose clubs lived through a 'golden era' in Europe. With five goals and four assists he performed very well in seven UEFA Cup games (incl. two regular time goals in the quarter final match his team lost, against later finalist). He also had five goals and four assists (too) in club friendlies against foreign club teams (nine matches in 1976-77 season).

    Simonsen is a good call too. He scored goals against Sweden and Poland, the only goals his team scored. Thanks to 'politics' his NT appearances were limited to two matches, but he didn't 'fail' individually when he played. He ticks the domestic and international boxes. Scored too from open play in the 1977 EC final, even though his team lost the match.
     
  14. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Yep, I did notice he was top scorer in the Dutch League but previously or since this has not seemed to carry much weight and he had a glut of goals at the start of 75-76, Plus Ajax had only finished third and not performed great in that well in European and actually were out before the start of 1975. I thought it might have been similar to a Lewandowski in 2015 and his purple patch at the start of 15-16 season lead to a 4th place finish in the Ballon d'or but in reality his 14-15 season was probably borderline top 20, I may be wrong hence the questions.
     
  15. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Completey agree re SA PoTY, Reinaldo somehow did not make the top ten once which seems crazy given his status, this years omission is the worst, same with Toninho Cerezo not making the list.

    Not sure what Rivelino did this year to warrant 2nd (happy to be corrected and I know he played a whole bunch of International games). Also Pele in 4th for playing in the US ????

    Re Ballon d'or, Keegan I feel almost lost the award following a slow start in Hamburg, had he remained at Liverpool he would have had a better chance and he did recieve more first palce votes than anyone, it sounds like despite not winning anything Cruyff had a great season, he finished some way off the top however, again not sure for the reason for this, maybe a drop in from pre voting? But as he was a big name I had thought being big name would work in his favour.

    This year I feel is the hardest to pick a winner and also top ten as seems to people with similar cases.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, I agree with this (top 15, top 20). Strangely no voter mentions his UEFA Cup goals, or five goals against Feyenoord though.

    He was also a guarantee for spectacular images and pictures.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    At times he cleaned himself during half-time (his trousers, his shoes etc.) so that it looked better on camera and photos. :laugh:

    He broke a bone in his leg in a 1977-78 pre-season friendly (Hamburg, 6th minute) and then missed 6-8 weeks, struggled to build up fitness. He had after another collision in the league also a problem with his elbow. Consequently there was a drop in form but he was still a useful and valuable player for his teams of course (in 1977-78).

    He was a big name (still observed as the world's best, or one of the two world's best), but as said back then repeated wins or near-wins were rare (be it consistent players as Di Stefano or Eusebio). He had already the record, and he was already the first - and only until Keegan - to win back-to-back recognition. I think 1976-77 was one of his best seasons, but eventually not winning a team trophy in 1977 (league or Europe, as he couldn't play in the cup) doesn't help. He came one point short in the league (three match ban), and scored two goals but lost against the later UEFA Cup finalist (who was defeated on an away goal in the final). The Ballon d'Or comments of 1977 by the voters were extremely complimentary (one mentioned him but didn't vote IIRC), but this didn't help of course.

    You see the something similar with successful Di Stefano in 1960 for example.
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Definitely - I translated the 'France Football' comments here:
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-worst-ballon-dor-winner.2012564/page-6#post-31630479
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-worst-ballon-dor-winner.2012564/page-6#post-31631484

    Simonsen had two nice goals against Red Star Belgrade at late 1977, progressing a round further (see YouTube).

    Keegan also lost it because of not qualifying for the World Cup, and observers felt he was thoroughly outplayed by his successor Dalglish and Cruijff on Wembley when it was also billed that way (as "Dalglish versus Keegan" shortly before the vote took place). Despite that, Keegan had his value in the qualification matches, and it is arguable that England would have lost more points without him playing and without his goals (goal + assist against Italy in 2-0 win, but it was not sufficient as Italy won 3-0 against Luxembourg in the remaining match).
     
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  18. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The issue is not that he did not win honors, it is the fact that I can't point out any specifics on what makes him worthy to be SAPOTY. He was rated well in the Brazil Serie A, but other players were rated significantly better and they had far more team success as well. He was top scorer in the Carioca but Flamengo failed to make the final group. Internationally he played about half Brazil's international games and scored most his goals in an 8-0 route of Bolivia and had no performances of have heard of that were classics vs good opposition.
     
  19. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Reinaldo was good and as a striker has the stats to show for, but Toninho Cerezo was considered the team's best player, and in fact, the greatest player in the club's history. He is probably the worthier candidate for the top three this year. Some very impressive names on this year's list of 23 and honorable mentions, just shows how much more competitive the game was back then in comparison to this era. I would add Antonin Panenka and Juan Manuel Battaglia to the HMs.

    PS: Should be Daniel Bertoni ;)
     
  20. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Cerezo big picture was probably a better player for Mineiro that Reinaldo, but that is mostly because Reinaldo was injured so often and had consistency issues. In this season there is no way I would take Cerezo over Reinaldo despite Cerezo being rated better. Ratings always are harsh on out and out goal scorers compared to the other positions.

    Ricardo Bertoni... trying to fit two players into one slot.
     
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  21. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1978

    Ardiles, Osvaldo (Huracán, Argentina)
    Bertoni, Daniel (Independiente, Argentina)
    Bettega, Roberto (Juventus, Italy)
    Cubillas, Teófilo (Alianza Lima, Peru)
    Dalglish, Kenny (Liverpool, Scotland)
    Deyna, Kazimierz (Legia Warsaw, Poland)
    Dirceu (Vasco da Gama, Brazil)
    Falcão (Internacional, Brazil)
    Fillol, Ubaldo (River Plate, Argentina)
    Haan, Arie (Anderlecht, Netherlands)
    Kempes, Mario (Valencia, Argentina)
    Krankl, Hans (Rapid Vienna, Austria)
    Krol, Ruud (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Maradona, Diego (Argentinos Juniors, Argentina)
    Passarella, Daniel (River Plate, Argentina)
    Prohaska, Herbert (Austria Vienna, Austria)
    Rensenbrink, Rob (Anderlecht, Netherlands)
    Roberto Dinamite (Vasco da Gama, Brazil)
    Rossi, Paolo (Vicenza, Italy)
    Scirea, Gaetano (Juventus, Italy)
    Shilton, Peter (Nottingham Forest, England)
    van de Kerkhof, René (PSV, Netherlands)
    Vogts, Berti (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)

    Honorable Mention: Johnny Rep, Willy van der Kuijlen, Willy van de Kerkhof, Batista, Marco Tardelli, Claudio Gentile, Bruno Pezzey, Robert Sara, Hector Chumpitaz, José Velásquez, César Cueto, Rolf Rüssmann, Rainer Bonhof, Ricardo Bochini, Norberto Alonso, Ray Clemence, Terry McDermott, Phil Neal, Emlyn Hughes, Julien Cools, Raoul Lambert, René Vandereycken, Franky Vercauteren , Viv Anderson, John Robertson, Carlos Bianchi, Santillana, Pirri, Dieter Müller, Heinz Flohe, Harald Schumacher, Migueli, Uli Stielike, Careca, Zenon, Renato, Miranda, Paulinho, Zico

    Top three was clear cut for me. Three stars of the world cup who all had excellent club years as well. Only other possibilities would be some of their teammates (defenders/midfielders) who were also excellent for club and country.

    Only a few non world cup slots available. Wanted to give one to a Guarani players as their achievement of winning the Brazil Championships as such a small team seems unique to this point. Could not pick one out though, as none made Bola de Prata (which seems kind of strange as they were not fluke winners, the accumulated the most points over the entire course of the tournament). Careca is obviously the big name but is very young still and while he was excellent I got the impression that Zenon, Ze Carlos, and Renato were the biggest players for the team in this tournament. If anyone has a clear answer I might try to find a way to slide one in the 23.
     
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  22. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    No Keegan, even in HMs?
     
  23. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    No, don't see the need as we are looking at the club season of 77-78.
     
  24. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I suggest Ronnie Hellstrom in top 23 / Kevin Keegan, Marius Tresor, Antonio Cabrini, Johan Neeskens, Franco Causio, Nelinho, Leopoldo Luque in HM.
     
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