Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Re Tostao, I am agnostic and more after the answers myself, he may have got the 1st on SAPoTY 1971 as it was the first year award and it was for more what he did 68-70 than 71 itself, same with high position in 72 possibley. Same with 73, Pele had an pretty good season but basically won because he was Pele !
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think it are a number of reasons but to pick two out;

    The first is that it was the first edition where the european championship had for whatever reason a major weighting. The one of 1968 didn't, 1964 to a minor extent and 1960 as well. As the retrospective of France Football noted: voters certainly felt Yashin would have been a worthy winner for 1960, and it was in their mind in 1963.

    A second important thing to note is that until 1974 no one retained their 'award'. Di Stefano, Eusebio etc. didn't. Eusebio came the closest actually (one point short), but had 5/22 first place votes with 12/22 for Charlton. Quite a few regarded him as the best 1996WC player but still did not vote for him on top. Winners invariably fell down the next year, no matter the 'hype' or how many million people (300m) watched a big final.
    When it was retained for the first time, Bayern Munich sporting director & Beckenbauer's personal agent Schwan claimed that Cruijff had cheated/bribed for the 1974 recognition - which if anything some found an ironic accusation (without future evidence, or later circumstantial evidence, of course).
    http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:011198855

    As far as lobbying and 'pitching' might be a factor (possibly only a minor factor): Netzer wasn't sponsored by the co-organizers of the award. He was individually sponsored by rivaling manufacturer Puma. Difficult to say though for specific years, other than that it can be a (small/big) factor.

    So the first two reasons are the most tangible ones: first european championship where it had a major weight (regrets over 1960, for sure); it wasn't retained for the first 19 editions, even if it were strong players with team achievements as Eusebio, Di Stefano, Charlton etcetera.
     
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  3. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1974

    Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Bremner, Billy (Leeds United, Scotland)
    Breitner, Paul (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Bochini, Ricardo (Independiente, Argentina)
    Chinaglia, Giorgio (Lazio, Italy)
    Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Deyna, Kazimierz (Legia Warsaw, Poland)
    Gadocha, Robert (Legia Warsaw, Poland)
    Edström, Ralf (PSV Eindhoven, Sweden)
    Figueroa, Elias (Internacional, Chile)
    Krol, Ruud (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Lato, Grzegorz (Stal Mielec, Poland)
    Maier, Sepp (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Müller, Gerd (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Neeskens, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Pereira, Luís (Palmieras, Brazil)
    Rensenbrink, Rob (Anderlecht, Netherlands)
    Rivelino (Corinthians, Brazil)
    Roberto Dinamite (Vasco da Gama)
    Sotil, Hugo (Barcelona)
    van Hanegem, Wim (Feyenoord, Netherlands)
    Vogts, Berti (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)
    Zico (Flamengo)

    Honorable Mention: Johnny Rep, Wim Suurbier, Wim Jansen, Wolfgang Overath, Uli Hoeneß, Władysław Żmuda, Andrzej Szarmach, Marinho Chagas, Ronnie Hellström, Björn Nordqvist, Bernd Bransch, Jürgen Croy, Branko Oblak, Josip Katalinski, Luis Aragonés, Ramón Heredia, Alberto Quintano, Jimmy Johnstone, José Eulogio Gárate, Conny Torstensson, Kenny Dalglish, Oleg Blokhin, Mario Kempes, Héctor Scotta, Carlos Babington, Ricardo Pavoni, Daniel Bertoni, Fernando Morena, Miguel Ángel Brindisi, Pedro Rocha, Nelinho, Dirceu Lopes, Rene Houseman, Wellington Ortiz

    As with most World Cup years the stars of the tournament must be included. The players with the best WC preformances that I ended up leaving out were Johnny Rep, Wim Suurbier, Wolfgang Overath, Andrzej Szarmach, Marinho Chagas, Ronnie Hellström, and Branko Oblak. There is limited space for players included based on non World Cup merits. I opted for some yound rising stars from South America with a number of spots. Zico broke through leading Flamengo to the State title and was named best player in the Brazilian Championships. His rating was second highest in the competitions history behind Falcao in 1979. Bochini was rated excellently in Argentina and led Independiente to another Libertadores after his star making moment the previous season in the Intercontinental Cup. Hugo Sotil was fantastic with Barcelona pairing with Cruyff and leading the famed club to La Liga title for the first time since 1960. Roberto Dinamite led Vasco to the Brazilian Championship and was the competitions top scorer. The final spot went to a European as Chinaglia led Lazio to their first Italian title ever and was the leagues top scorer. The best non world cup performances I had to leave out were Pedro Rocha, Fernando Morena, Ricardo Pavoni, Mario Kempes, and Jimmy Johnstone.

    The top three seemed clear with Lato the only other player I really considered.
     
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  4. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I'm skeptical about Chinaglia, Torstensson, Maier. On the other hand, Bonhof is a big missing. Also, Babington, Hellstrom, Hoeness are attractive.
     
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  5. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    No arguments re top three, re the top 23 I expected to Jurgen Sparwasser, famous for scoring the goal for East Germany to beat West Germany in the World Cup, but he was also the national Champion in East Germany and more importantly his side Magdeburg won the CWC, beating Milan in the final, Sparwasser scored a the winner in the semis to defeat Sporting Lisbon.
     
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  6. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1975

    Alonso, Norberto (River Plate)
    Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Blokhin, Oleg (Dynamo Kyiv, Soviet Union)
    Bremner, Billy (Leeds United, Scotland)
    Carpeggiani, Paulo César (Internacional)
    Chumpitaz, Héctor (Universitario, Peru)
    Cruyff, Johan (Barcelona, Netherlands)
    Cubillas, Teófilo (Porto, Peru)
    Figueroa, Elias (Internacional)
    Fillol, Ubaldo (River Plate)
    Geels, Ruud (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Heynckes, Jupp (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)
    Maier, Sepp (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Morena, Fernando (Penarol, Uruguay)
    Nelinho (Cruziero, Brazil)
    Netzer, Günter (Real Madrid, Germany)
    Piazza, Osvaldo (Saint-Étienne)
    Rivellino (Fluminense)
    Scotta, Hector (San Lorenzo)
    Simonsen, Allan (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Denmark)
    van der Kuijlen, Willy (PSV, Netherlands)
    Vogts, Berti (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)
    Zico (Flamengo)

    Honorable Mention: Marco Antonio, Gil, Paulo Cézar Lima, Pedro Rocha, Waldir Peres, Chicão, Palhinha, Zé Carlos, Falcão, Flavio, Lula, Roberto Perfumo, Juan José López, Mario Kempes, Rene Houseman, Oswaldo Ramírez, Juan Carlos Oblitas, Julio Melendez, Leonardo Véliz, Colin Todd, Hervé Revelli, Paolo Pulici, Dino Zoff, Franco Causio, Frans Thijssen, Grzegorz Lato, Kazimierz Deyna, Viktor Kolotov, Volodymyr Veremeyev, Santillana, Jose Antonio Camacho, Rainer Bonhof, Bernd Hölzenbein, Henning Jensen, Jürgen Grabowski, Zdeněk Nehoda, Ivo Viktor, Anton Ondruš, Marián Masný, Brane Oblak, Josip Katalinski

    This was a year with a lot of great candidates for the 23 but not a lot for the top three. Some of the toughest players to decide about there inclusion were some of the big names like Cruyff and Beckenbauer. They had disappointing domestic seasons with their clubs, good runs in Europe Cup, and I think were decent with their national teams but not sure.
     
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  7. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    What do you think of Carlos Bianchi in Ligue 1, usually leading the scoring charts there during this time. Also, I would include Wellington Ortiz and Ricardo Bochini as honorable mentions.
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    :thumbsup:

    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...bundesliga/1974-75/topspieler-der-saison.html
    http://football-ratings.blogspot.com/2012/12/memory-lane-la-liga-1974-75.html
    http://football-ratings.blogspot.com/2012/04/average-ratings-in-clasicos-1970-80.html
    http://www.bdfutbol.com/en/p/j5282.html?cat=-&temp=1974-75&equip=-&rival=-&noj=1

    I think both had mixed performances on those two stages.

    European Cup 1974-75;

    Cruijff good against most opponents, especially against UEFA Cup holders Feyenoord, but not so good against Leeds (despite 1 assist and a couple of dangerous moments at the very end of the tie). Possibly injury or whatever but still.

    Beckenbauer not good against Magdeburg (defensive errors, judgements; short/long highlights on YouTube), handful errors in final against Leeds (one careless challenge in own penalty area too), but superb semi final performance against St Etienne where he scored one of his most classic goals I'd say (and best goals given the stage and opponent, plus comparative quality of own team at that month).

    National team 1975;

    Cruijff was imho bad away against Poland (had the assist for the important away goal though; 4-1 loss), but good at home against Poland, including pre-assist (3-0 win; head to head advantage, important at UEFA level)

    I think Beckenbauer had a couple of solid (Turkey) and quite good performances (Bulgaria at home), but the two most questionable were the games against England (example) and against Greece (examples: 2.18, 3.44). In the latter match the commentator even says explicitly that it wasn't an incident by the defense (as a whole).

    -----

    My sincere opinion and/or observation. As I said some time ago against PDG1978, I'd give this season/year to Blokhin (for the European players at least).
     
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  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Netherlands did not have head to head advantage over Poland, as it was 4-4 global.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Away goal rule exists since 1965. You should know that.

    Secondly, without that away goal both teams end on +5 goal diff. Then Poland would go through anyway because of the goals they scored and h2h.

    He was because of 2nd yellow suspended for the 1975 away game in Italy (and unlike other players, no cancellation was ever arranged). At home fairly good.
     
  11. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Alonso is interesting choice. how about Georgescu, Pirri, Breitner, Edstrom as HM?
     
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  12. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I just noticed no Breitner, first year in Spain and a La Liga and Copa del Rey double, I think that went some way to helping him finish 8th in Ballon d'or that year.
     
  13. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I'm uncertain, I heard that Brietner didn't play well in Madrid.
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #489 PuckVanHeel, Apr 18, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2016
    I think because he has already included Netzer, Camacho and Santillana of the team (plus another one?). I would swap Netzer with Breitner, at least for the first 64. Netzer struggled more, but also Breitner had it tough to deal with the rough play (his own words!). I think he played significantly better though. From what I saw, heard and read.

    http://www.bdfutbol.com/en/j/j3137.html

    It's worth saying that foreigners were ineligible to play in the Copa del Generallisimo (even some of the 'Oruindi'). So the Spanish core won that on their own merit (retaining their trophy of 1974, where they beat Barcelona with 4-0 in the final).

    http://www.linguasport.com/futbol/nacional/copa/copa75.htm
    http://www.linguasport.com/futbol/nacional/copa/copa74.htm
     
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  15. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    What Breitner said in his 1980 autobiography was that he was used to play without shin pads and when he first played in Spain (the first match) his opponents were aiming specifically his shinbones. The first few occasions when he was fouled he was looking to the referee in disbelief but he did nothing about it. So after 10 minutes he went out to the bench "begging for shin pads" otherwise, as he stated, he would have died that day. He never played without shin pads afterwards and called himself "insane" for not being willing to use shin pads up to that point (he had been warned by his teammates).
     
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  16. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I just finished reviewing all the lists of the decade of the 30's. It was expected that Giuseppe Meazza and Matthias Sindelar were the most frequently mentioned of the decade, but I'm a little surprised about how many times Cliff Bastin was chose.

    Pulling for home, it's very interesting to see 3 Peruvians in the list of 1939, although I thought Segundo "Titina" Castillo and especially Teodoro "Lolo" Fernández will have another mention in previous years. I also believed that Alejandro Villanueva could appear once.

    The most frequently mentioned of the 30's:

    7 - MEAZZA, Giuseppe (ITA)
    7 - SINDELAR, Matthias (AUT)
    6 - BASTIN, Cliff (ING)
    5 - NEJEDLY, Oldrich (CHE)
    5 - SÁROSI, György (HUN)
    5 - SASTRE, Antonio (ARG)
    4 - ANDREOLO, Michele (URU)
    4 - FERRARI, Giovanni (ITA)
    4 - HAPGOOD, Eddie (ING)
    4 - MORENO, José Manuel (ARG)
    4 - ORSI, Raimundo (ARG)
    4 - PIOLA, Silvio (ITA)
    3 - AVAR, István (HUN)
    3 - BICAN, Josef (AUT)
    3 - BRAINE, Raymond (BEL)
    3 - BROOK, Eric (ING)
    3 - CROOKS, Sammy (ING)
    3 - DOMINGOS da Guia (BRA)
    3 - ERICO, Arsenio (PAR)
    3 - JAMES, Alex (ESC)
    3 - LÁNGARA, Isidro (ESP)
    3 - MONZEGLIO, Eraldo (ITA)
    3 - NAUSCH, Walter (AUT)
    3 - PEUCELLE, Carlos (ARG)}
    3 - PLÁNICKA, Frantisek (CHE)
    3 - SCHIAVIO, Angelo (ITA)
    3 - SVOBODA, Frantisek (CHE)
    3 - VARALLO, Francisco (ARG)
    3 - ZSENGELLÉR, Gyula (HUN)
     
  17. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    From 1920 to 1939:

    8: MORTON, Alan (SCO)
    7: MEAZZA, Giuseppe (ITA)
    7: SINDELAR, Matthias (AUT)
    6: BASTIN, Cliff (ENG)
    6: GALLACHER, Hughie (SCO)
    6: McGRORY, Jimmy (SCO)
    6: ORSI, Raimundo (ARG)
    6: ORTH, György (HUN)
    6: PESEK, Karel (CZE)
    6: SCARONE, Héctor (URU)
    6: ZAMORA, Ricardo (SPA)
     
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  18. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Thanks, it may be his 8th position in the Ballon d'or was somewhat based on his previous season's sucess from all the accounts I am reading.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Can you share those accounts?
     
  20. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I mean the posts on here from Raute and yourself re not in Cup, although having read Raute's post again he was non comittal. Just trying to ascertain was Breitners first year in RM warranted of 8th in Ballon d'or or was it in fact because he was a big name and WC winner the previus year.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Hmmm yes, it is not always clear cut but I'm pretty certain he played better than Netzer, and adapted better. He has the better ratings for what's worth. Tom Stevens had already three RM players included. He was a big name (the most prominent foreigner) at a big club indeed, that is true. It was only their second double after 1961-62, but as said non-naturalized foreigners couldn't play in the cup (until the end of 1976-77).

    When PDG made his own ranking I disagreed with his top two but I also replied to him that he isn't blatantly wrong.
    Show Spoiler
    As for 1975; I was paging through the old World Soccer magazines next to 1975-1977 editions of IFB and it lends credence to both views I suppose. Many seemed to have been sincerely impressed by Blokhin his playing, and also how he managed to ghost past seasoned Italian defenders (see picture above) - giving sweeper Facchetti headaches.
    As mentioned there are remarks of a decreased level by top stars (including the finals) and that Spain has been a rough going for Netzer, Breitner and many other yesteryear stars (in particular players outside the Madrid clubs, some said). Unlike Blokhin, it's also Cruyff's his only European season without goals, although he created eight direct (narrow) assists of course. On the other side: on google books I found out Observer Magazine had a report in 1975 and followed Cruijff for a dozen games or so. They quote Rinus Michels just before the end of that season, before he resigned: "Without Cruyff I have no team." Though it seems he himself feels football doesn't work that way.

    Pelé ('whose place he has taken as the world's top player') said somewhere in 1975: "Cruyff fills the gap left in the [Spanish] game by Di Stefano." Apparently the 'Clasico' games of that year were rather OK, a view supported by the various grades posted and shared on 'football-ratings.blogspot' (you know the website? you can search on that). And next to that 'World Soccer' also made great noise about the euro76 Poland game that you mentioned, though he didn't win anything that year. Norman S. Barrett in a book: "Possesses all the qualities essential for a striker in an era of massed defences. But he is more than a mere striker [...]". "Blokhin hasn't been forced out of the country" (Ukraine). Don Kowet (book/work from early 1976 though) "Then, in 1974 and 1975, his first two seasons with Barcelona, he dominated the competitive Spanish league the way no player had since di Stefano and Puskas."


    Belgium voted him behind Blokhin and Cruijff, and cited his Real Madrid team achievements.

    Finland voted him behind Beckenbauer and Lato, and mentioned Real Madrid.

    Portugal voted him behind Blokhin, Maier and Georgescu. Mentioned Real Madrid.

    Sweden voted him behind Blokhin, Netzer and Oblak (just as others he indicates he wants to see a new podium).

    Czechoslovakia voted him behind Blokhin.

    Five voters in total (of 26). All 26 mentioned Blokhin by the way.


    In 1975-76 Real Madrid was doing well again until the month April. They had a strong start and that might have served Breitner too. Then they lost between 07/04/1976 and 30/04/1976 four of five competitive matches: including - in order of date - the domestic cup against Tenerife, the European Cup semi final against Bayern Munich, 2-0 loss against Athletic Bilbao, and lost 0-2 at home against rivals Barcelona (the sole match they won was 1-0 at home against Salamanca in the league). Still retained their league title though.
     
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  22. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    It's been a while since I read the "Kicker" reports on Netzer's time in Madrid but I seem to remember that in his first season in Spain (1973-74), the problem Netzer faced was that the playing style of Real Madrid was very different to that of his former team Borussia Mönchengladbach. M'Gladbach was a team that preferred quick counter-attacking tactics and Netzer was at the heart of this, as almost all offensive actions were channelled through him. His most famous feature of course being his excellent long-range passes from a deep position or himself surging forward with the ball at his feet. Real Madrid did not rely on a counter-attacking tactic but tried to keep possession and preferred a more 'conservative' approach. Netzer struggled immensely to adapt to the new situation and he also had to be content with his teammates not automatically passing every ball to him like he was used to in M'Gladbach. Netzer did better in the follow-up season 1974-75 but I do not remember if this was caused by Real adapting to Netzer's wishes (unlikely!) or Netzer somehow adapting better to Real's system (more likely).

    Regarding Paul Breitner: he definitely had it easier adapting to Real's system because it somehow resembled the Bayern system far more than Borussia's system.
     
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  23. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1976

    Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Cruyff, Johan (Barcelona, Netherlands)
    Ćurković, Ivan (Saint-Étienne)
    Džajić, Dragan (Bastia, Yugoslavia)
    Figueroa, Elias (Internacional)
    Gallego, Américo (Newell's Old Boys, Argentina)
    Gatti, Hugo (Boca Junior, Argentina)
    Gil (Fluminense, Brazil)
    Graziani, Francesco (Torino, Italy)
    Jairzinho (Cruziero)
    Keegan, Kevin (Liverpool, England)
    Neeskens, Johan (Barcelona, Netherlands)
    Nelinho (Cruziero, Brazil)
    Ondruš, Anton (Slovan Bratislava, Czechoslovakia)
    Passarella, Daniel (River Plate, Argentina)
    Platini, Michele (Nancy, France)
    Piazza, Osvaldo (Saint-Étienne, Argentina)
    Pirri (Real Madrid, Spain)
    Rensenbrink, Rob (Anderlecht, Netherlands)
    Rivellino (Fluminense, Brazil)
    Valdomiro (Internacional, Brazil)
    Viktor, Ivo (Dukla Prague, Czechoslovakia)
    Zico (Flamengo, Brazil)

    Honorable Mention: Paulo Isidoro, Toninho Cerezo, Reinaldo, Palhinha, Joãozinho, Narciso Doval, Paulo Cézar Lima, Direcu, Roberto Dinamite, Falcão, Lula, Dadá Maravilha, Manga, Sócrates, Ubaldo Fillol, Osvaldo Ardiles, Rene Houseman, Mario Kempes, Daniel Bertoni, Gerd Müller, Sepp Maier, Gérard Janvion, Christian Lopez, Dominique Rocheteau, Arie Haan, Trevor Brooking, Emlyn Hughes, Ray Clemence, Carlos Bianchi, Paolo Pulici, Ruud Geels, Willy van der Kuijlen, Willy van de Kerkhof, Rudd Krol, Klaus Fischer, Kenny Dalglish, Dieter Müller, Rainer Bonhof, Berti Vogts, Roberto Bettega, Giancarlo Antognoni, Allan Simonsen, Karol Dobiaš, Antonín Panenka, Zdeněk Nehoda, Marián Masný, Tibor Nyilasi

    Top three was pretty even between 5 players, Beckenbauer, Figueroa, Rivellino, Zico, and Rensenbrink. Zico's club year lagged behind his other seasons, while Rivellino was excellent for club. They were both great for a very strong Brazil squad that beat Uruguay twice, Argentina twice, England, Italy, and the Soviets. It was a big year for Brazil overall with another dominating Brazilian Championship from Internacional. Cruziero became the first Brazilian team since Pele's Santos to win the Libertadores and they did it in style proceeding to the final undefeated before taking two of three from River Plate. Fluminense and Atletico Mineiro had great squads as well.

    In Europe things are a bit muddled with no clear cut top players. The Czechs were very impressive beating the two big name/reputation European teams (Germany and Netherlands) to win the Euro, but they were more of a excellent team that came together at the right time than a team with star power. Rensenbrink was fantastic for club but had a disappointing showing in the finals of the Euro after looking great the round before.
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Is it 1975-76 for club and the year 1976 for country, or is it 1975-76 for country as well? Sometimes it's a bit confusing but maybe it's my fault.
     
  25. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country is for calender year. It was easier in the beginning as a season was far less well defined especially in south american.
     

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