There might well be some truth in this but it's very hard to tell. It seems very unlikely to me that football was objectively worse after the war than it had been before, though there is of course the danger that some potential future stars (the only contemporary big name that I know was killed was Leigh Richmond Roose) might have died. I know that a lot of people looked at the interwar years a being a worse period in general terms in England, a failure to deliver on Lloyd George's "Land fit for heroes" line. Meanwhile I know that you posted previously that Sharpe had posted that 7 of the best England players from up until 1952 were from that era, and of course it was the era in which he played. I sort of think there might be some nostalgia on his part, like a recently retired player thinking it was "better in my day". I also think it's quite hard to look at Hungary's results and think they were in any way superior to England until at least a bit later. The English amateurs had thrashed them 7-0 in 1912 and yet only five years later it is all change? Celtic might have lost twice on a tour but again, it's difficult to determine the precise strength of that. Was it a full team? Was it a serious contest? The Scottish league, as I said, struggled against their English counterparts.
Overall I agree in the strenght of the leagues at the 1920s, having into consideration that a local based players was the rule worldwide, with these exceptions: England (main importer), Hungary & Scotland (main exporters), also Argentina & Uruguay having two leagues for some years. I'd say that Spain was equal or better than Italy this decade. I also take out the likes of France and Yugoslavia (I think they were behind Belgium, Wales and Switzerland)
Just trying to be conservative (due to uncertain understanding in this era) and guiding by the countries strenght at this point, 1920. Definitely, I miss at least 1 scottish into the 23-list. Even being a bad year, Scotland was a top country at 1920. Two players from german league seems to much (arguably any regional league was weaker than Paulista/Carioca for example, at this point). I read german keeper was rated among the better in Europe, but which could be said was his best season? I think he didn't make a great impression at NT level this year. Hungarian Szabo is a debatable choice aswell, since playing in german regional league and being uncapped. For the same reason I probably leave only one brazilian. Probably take out 1 hungarian and also 1 or 2 englishmen of the 23-list. As candidates with further research 1 player from Denmark or Netherlands or even Wales, Italy, Sweden or Switzerland (not of each side)
In terms of league strength I agree England is on top, especially in the mid and late 20s when most of the big British stars all play in the English league. The Scots Gallacher, Jackson, McMullan, Ferguson, Gibson, James, and Halliday among others all moved to England and were some of the best players in the world at their positions (Not to mention all the best Welsh players, who made up an excellent national team). To me the Scots are clearly the best national team of the decade. I am unsure of your rankings after England. With Argentina and Uruguay having split leagues I am unsure on how to rank them. I would definitely rank the three central European power (Austria, Hungary, Czechs) on par with the second tier, and I would say their best teams might be better than the Scots, Argentina, and Uruguay as the power in those central European leagues seems more concentrated in a few teams. Also Italy despite being an importer is a level below for me until the end of the decade. The first six or so years of the decade Italian national teams are way behind Spain, Austria, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia. Another think i wanted to discuss is MTK. I often hear them mentioned as the top continental team of the time seen as on par with Sparta. The Hungarian national team, which is basically MTK in the first half of the decade were clearly inferior to Austria and Czechoslovakia for example. I am not sure what their reputation is based on. Did they have a great record in club friendlies at the times?
Yet you seem to have no trouble putting England as one of the top, or the top, NT of the 40s despite losing to the amateur USA and then Uruguay in WC50 and exiting in the first round.
I agree on the players from the German Leagues being debatable choices. This was more built on the idea of Nuremberg's unbeatable team, they had yet to get whacked by Sparta and still had the aura of invincibility. I believe they won the German Championshsips (a national competition) without conceding a single goal. Much of this is attributed to the arrival of two Hungarians, Schaffer and Szabo. Schaffer was the bigger star but only played the regional portion of the season not the German Cahmpionships. I agree that Szabo is the weakest player on the list and I should probably replace him with a Scot. Also I am not sure the German league is weaker than the Carioca. The Paulista league supplied all the top Brazilian players of the time, an time Brazil rolled out a Carioca based team to a Copa America they got smashed and seemed to be on the same level as Paraguay, a whole level below Argentina and Uruguay. The Paulista based teams were at least competitive with the top two and could sometimes beat them, especially at home.
I would say at this point we can only speculate, and honestly that's all an educated voter of the time could do as well. With no regular international competition at the club or country level you are left to guess. I would think even educated voters of the time that had access to information about all games would likely still vote with regional bias. Why wouldn't Germans think Nuremberg were the best team in Europe in 1920? They dominated the German League to massive extent. They, and the rest of Europe did not know they were inferior until Sparta showed them a year later.
For which there is some pretty strong evidence (multiple wins against high quality opposition like Italy, Sweden, France, Scotland, Belgium, Wales, Portugal). What is the evidence that Hungary had overtaken England by 1920?
Hungary's rise to the top of football begins in the late 1910s. Likewise, you have no certain proof that England was better than Hungary during this decade.
I'm discussing this in, hopefully, a pleasant manner with Tom and Peter, so I'm throwing ideas around. The fact that England didn't lose to any continental opposition until 1929 and then thrashed Spain 7-1 in the rematch of their first narrow loss is a decent indicator that they were of the top rank around 1920 (maybe not the best but one of the best). Hungary meanwhile had a relatively patchy record for most of this period. Of course I have no "certain proof" in this period and if someone thinks that Hungary are better, they're entitled to that view, but the common view would be that England would be superior in this era. Meanwhile England's record in the late 1940s was imperious and they were deservedly ranked among the best sides in the world in that era.
It's always pleasant as long as it's your point of view agreed on . In any event, I was arguing against the proof that you offered to discredit Hungary, when you are very well reluctant to apply the same standard to England. Football was much more global by the 1940s and two teams from the American continent beat England in the first round of WC50. I have trouble accepting the best NT of 1949 loses to a group of factory workers the very next year in what is the biggest competition of all, I'm sure others will too.
1924 Abegglen, Max (Grasshopper, Switzerland) Andrade, Jose Leonadro (Bella Vista, Uruguay) Braun, Jozsef (MTK, Hungary) Buchan, Charlie (Sunderland, England) Davies, Len (Cardiff City, Wales) De Vecchi, Renzo (Genoa, Italy) Gallacher, Hughie (Airdrieonians, Scotland) Kalb, Hans (Nurnberg, Germany) Keenor, Fred (Cardiff, Wales) Konrad, Kalman (Amateur Vienna) Morton, Alan (Rangers, Scotland) Nasazzi, José (Bella Vista, Uruguay) Orth, György (MTK, Hungary) Petit, Rene (Real Union) Petrone, Pedro (Nacional, Uruguay) Romano, Ángel (Nacional, Uruguay) Russell, Moses (Plymouth, Wales) Rydell, Sven (Örgryte, Sweden) Scarone, Héctor (Nacional, Uruguay) Stephenson, Clem (Huddersfield Town, England) Wadsworth, Sam (Huddersfield Town, England) Walker, Billy (Aston Villa, England) Wieser, Gustav (Amateur Vienna, Austria) Honorable Mention: Hans Horvath, Frank Moss, Willie Davies, Ted Vizard, David Jack, Stan Seymour, Heinrich Stuhlfauth, György Molnár, Francisco Gamborena, Harry Dénis, Kees Pijl, Tore Keller, Nilo, Alfredo Carricaberry, Domingo Tarasconi, Pedro Cea, Santos Urdinaran It was a big year for the continent with the Olympics a major proving ground. Traditional powers and favorites the Czechs and Hungarians both failed, Hungary in especially shocking fashion. Iron Sparta also came to an end with Slavia claiming the title. MTK were still comfortably the best in Hungary and the national team actually had a very good year outside of the unexplainable loss to Eygpt in the Olympics. Spain, another highly thought of team also dropped out quickly while less well established teams like Sweden, Netherlands, and Switzerland and preformed very well. Austria did not participate in the Olympics but had a strong international year, with Amateur winning the double domestically. The big British story this year is the success of Wales, who won all three games of the tournament. The core of that team played for Cardiff who lost out on winning the English league by fractions of a goal differential. They finished the season tied with champions Huddersfield on 57 points. Huddersfield won their first of three consecutive leagues and Newcastle won the FA Cup. In Scotland Rangers were once again champions by a convincing margin but a new arrival, Airdrieonians achieved 2nd place, paced by their star striker Hughie Gallacher. In South America Uruguay are obviously the story, not only did they wow Europe in the Olympics, they won the South American Championships as well. Because of the wealth of top candidates this year the top achievers from Argentina domestically got left out. The first major challenge of this season was whittling down to a 23. I left of a number of good players for Wales. I felt like the main ones that needed to be included were the players who also played very important roles for Cardiff, Len Davies and Fred Keenor. If Vizard and Willie Davies were thought of as more important to the national team than I am giving them credit for I could sub them for Russel or another player. I felt bad about leaving out Brazil and Argentina, but with so many deserving Uruguay players dominating the vote it was tough. Especially considering some of the continental players who I could not get on the list: only one from Sweden and Switzerland (looking at the quality of teams they beat this year I really feel like they should have more players in but I am not sure who) and none from Netherlands. Horvath scored 9 goals in 8 games for Austria who had a very successful international season but I feel he is a bit down the pecking order of guys trying to make the final 23. The final three was interesting. I think the obvious choice is Andrade, who would probably win the vote as well. I like Billy Walker this year as well, but I am open to changing him to a Welsh/Cardiff player if there was one star, but it seems to be more of a well balanced team than one star carrying the team. He led Villa to the Fa Cup final and 6th in the table as well as scoring four in three games for England, including a famous equalizer against Scotland. The final spot is a tough choice. Again is a Wales player stood out maybe that would make sense. A second Uruguayan is very tempting with Scarone and Petrone the obvious candidates. I think a guy like Rydell has a good case to be made, he scored 18 goals in 9 games for Sweden. Abegglen ia another who was great in the Olympics and the Swiss knocked out some excellent teams in the Czech, Italy, and Sweden. He also scored in a 4-2 win over Hungary prior to the tournament.
The more I am looking at this year I am considering dropping the two Hungarians and possibly Wadsworth for another Swiss, Swed, and a Dutch player. Any input on who the top candidates are is welcome.
Perhaps this is less about the English and Hungarian national teams than about their individual players in the 1920s. I have Jimmy Hogan's biography (by Norman Fox) in front of me. Hogan on Orth: "The most versatile, greatest and most intelligent player I have ever seen". Hogan saw plenty of British players. The book also mentions a combined Budapest side beating Bolton 4-1. I am trying to track down more details but Bolton are described as ex-Cup winners and they won the FA Cup in 1923 so it must have been some time after that. Regarding English football after WW1, it was not only the loss of those killed in action, but also four years' loss of development necessary to reach the highest levels. The cricketer Jack Hobbs said that he found it much easier to score runs after the war because the bowlers were either too old or had not had the opportunity to develop properly. Of course the footballers of the old Austro-Hungarian empire also suffered in the war. But they were back playing in 1917, a couple of years before the British. And MTK had a proper coach in Hogan, who was not in charge of the national team. Hogan again: "I only wish that the British player who argued with me a few months ago that swerving and feinting were natural gifts which could not be taught had the opportunity of playing against these two wonders (Orth and Braun). They would very quickly have changed their views on the matter... this body control was only learnt by simple exercises...Could you imagine asking a British player to do anything like this? Yet this is what Continental teams - who keep on beating English League XIs - are doing to prepare their players for the battle of football supremacy." It sounds as though British clubs were losing regularly in Europe, though details are not easy to find. James Catton, editor of the Athletic News Football Annual, writing in 1923: "If England is to retain her prestige in the face of other nations, all players, whether they be forwards or backs, must use more intelligence, and by constant practice obtain control and power over the ball with the inside and outside of each foot. Unless players get out of the rut into which they have fallen, the game will lose its popularity and Great Britain her fame." Catton was succeeded as editor by Ivan Sharpe: "They [the Continentals] coach, we don't, and until we do coach - and coach properly - we shall not control the ball and play high-class football. We shall just muddle through." South American football was less affected by the war and seems to have developed very quickly. At the 1924 Olympics, Uruguay also took preparation much more seriously than the British. Quote from Roger Macdonald's Soccer: A Pictorial History [Collins, 1977]: "Perhaps as startling as Uruguay's achievements on the field were their preparations behind the scenes. They brought with them a doctor and a physical training expert, and apart from the occasional press conference, they remained in seclusion at a villa outside Paris in the quiet village of Argenteuil." With England (and Scotland) not playing any of the leading nations outside the British Isles between 1919 and 1929, there will always be doubts about their place, and that of their players, in the footballing hierarchy. But my own view is that England and her players fell back in the 1920s before recovering during the next decade.
Fred Keenor is always regarded as the iconic player of the side but a top 3 in the world would be a big stretch. He was primarily a dogged worker of a player rather than a really classy individual.
I agree with the general premise of the last sentence, it is hard to tell how far back they fell in the 20s but they seemed to clearly be a top team in the 30s, probably on the same level as Italy and Austria, as seen from the close home victories over them. I would say everyone improved from the 20s to the 30s except maybe Scotland, who seemed to have a golden generation of players in the 20s.
This is the same impression I got, he was the iconic player but more of an emotional leader than a great footballer. Anyone have more info on Stan Davies? Was he close to the caliber of a top player in the world or was he seen as below the top English (Buchan, Walker, Jack) and Scottish (Gallacher, James, Jackson) forwards of the time?
Just found msioux excellent Olympics thread with great match reports from 1924. I am making notes of revisions and will post them at the end. In 1924 I will add Putte Kock (SWE), Hary Denis (NET), and Rudolf Ramseyer (SWI) to the 23 at the expense of Kalb, Wadsworth, and Orth.
Looking for Bolton Wanderers matches. Some interesting tests around 1923: 1923 - FC Servette - Bolton 2:2 1923 - Zürich XI - Bolton 1:5 1924 - Sparta Praha - Bolton 1:3 1924 - FC Nürnberg - Bolton 0:4 1924 - Aberdeen - Bolton 1:3 (neutral venue) 1925 - Hakoah Wien - Bolton 1:2 1925 - M.T.K. - Bolton 1:1 1925 - First Vienna - Bolton 2:4 1925 - Ferencvaros TC - Bolton 4:1 1925 - Praha XI - Bolton 2:0 http://rsssf.com/tablesb/brit-ier-tours-prewwii.html
Maybe could be interesting to check the english vs scottish clubs matches In the first years of the 1920s not many top sides are cited. http://rsssf.com/tablesa/angloscot-club.html#1920
1925 Andrade, Jose Leonadro (Nacional) Errazquin, Juan (Real Union, Spain) Friedenreich, Arthur (Paulistano, Brazil) Gallacher, Hughie (Airdrieonians, Scotland) Gamborena, Francisco (Real Union, Spain) Gillespie, Billy (Sheffield United, Ireland) Goodall, Roy (Huddersfield, England) Jack, David (Bolton) McGrory, Jimmy (Celtic) McStay, William (Celtic, Scotland) Meikljohn, David (Rangers, Scotland) Morton, Alan (Rangers, Scotland) Orth, György (MTK, Hungary) Pešek, Karel (Sparta Prague, Czechoslovakia) Roberts, Frank, (Manchester City, England) Rydell, Sven (Örgryte, Sweden) Samiter, Josep (Barcelona, Spain) Scarone, Hector (Nacional) Seoane, Manuel (El Porvenir, Argentina) Tunstall, Fred (Sheffield United, England) Wadsworth, Sam (Huddersfield Town, England) Walker, Billy (Aston Villa, England) Zamora, Ricardo (RDC Espanol, Spain) Honorable Mention: Giuseppe Della Valle, Angelo Schiavio, Pedro Petrone, José Nasazzi, Nono, Américo Tesoriere, Hans Horvath, Jan Vanik, Alex Jackson, Tommy Cairns Scotland dominated the home championship as a new nucleus was formed that would rule British football for the rest of the decade based around Alex Jackson, Alan Morton, and Hughie Gallacher. Gallacher scored in all three games including a brace in a 2-0 win over England. For club he again took Airdrieonians to second place in the league, only three points back of Rangers. He also starred with the Scottish League 11 scoring 5 in a 7-3 win over the Irish League and a brace in a 2-0 win over the English League. in England Huddersfield won their second straight title on the strength of a defense that only allowed 28 goals in 42 games. Sheffield won the Fa Cup with inspired performances from Tunstall and Gillespie. On the continent Spain had an amazing international year. They won all five of their games played without allowing a single goal. Even more impressive was the fact that four of the five games were away. They beat Portugal 2-0 in Lisbon, Switzerland 3-0 in Bern, Italy 1-0 in Valencia, Austria 1-0 in Vienna, and Hungary 1-0 in Budapest. The Czechs also went undefeated winning all three games convincingly in a three game home stand. The big happenings in South america actualy took place in Europe as three major tours happened, a Brazilian All Star team centered around Paulistino, an Argentina all star team centered around Boca Juniors, and a Uruguay all star team centered around Nacional. Nacional's tour was probably the most impressive and extensive (38 games!), with good results against top teams in Spain and Austria. Scarone was the star scoring 26 times in 26 games and was bought on the spot by Barcleona after seeing him play. Boca's tour hit some major bumps against top Spanish teams, with a 4-0 loss to Real Union and a 4-2 loss to Atletic Bilbao. Argentina won the South American Championship that was missing Uruguay. The top three is difficult again this year, with Gallacher being the only sure thing in my mind. A Spanish Representative seems warranted but I am torn between Samiter and Zamora. Obviously Zamora's international performance must have been great, and likely Samiter's as well. Samiter also led Barcleona to the Copa del Rey. Scarone seems like a good candidate based on the reactions to Uruguay's tour. Seoane is also a good candidate. He was the top scorer in Boca's tour and starred in the watered down South American Championship.
Predictably there is very little known of him in Wales among general football supporters. Like so many of this generation he has been entirely forgotten.
1926 Andrade, Jose Leonadro (Nacional) Blum, Josef (First Vienna, Austria) Brown, George (Huddersfield Town, England) Buchan, Charlie (Arsenal) Castro, Hector (Nacional, Uruguay) Cherro, Roberto (Boca Juniors, Argentina) Fogl, Karoly (Ujpest, Hungary) Gallacher, Hughie (Newcastle, Scotland) Harder, Otto (Hamburg, Germany) Hirzer, Ferenc (Juventus) Jack, David (Bolton) Jackson, Alex (Huddersfield Town, Scotland) Kohut, Vilmos (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Konrad, Kalman (Amateur Vienna) McGrory, Jimmy (Celtic) McInally, Tommy (Celtic, Scotland) McStay, William (Celtic, Scotland) Nasazzi, José (Bella Vista, Uruguay) Orsi, Raimundo (Independiente) Samiter, Josep (Barcelona) Scarone, Hector (Nacional, Uruguay) Seoane, Manuel (Independiente) Wieser, Gustav (Amateur Vienna, Austria) Honorable Mention: Ferdinand Wesely, Jan Dvořáček, Roy Goodall, Billy Walker, Dixie Dean, Clem Stephenson, Jimmy McMullan, Jozsef Braun, Karoly Fogl, Virginio Rosetta, Angelo Schiavio, Sagibarba, David Arellano Scotland won the Home Championship, sweeping all three games without conceding a goal. Alex Jackson scored the winner vs England and starred in the English League, helping Huddersfield to their third consecutive title. In the Scottish League Celtic ran away with the first division led by rising star striker Jimmy McGory and captain Willy McStay, who marshaled a defense that allowed a league low number of goals. He also captained Scotland in all three of its home championship games where they did not concede a single goal. On the continent Austria and Hungary had excellent international campaigns. In Hungary MTK was finally unseated by new champions Ferencvaros after winning 10 consecutive titles, due in large part to career ending injuries to Orth and Braun. In Austria Wieser and Konrad led Amateur to their second double in three years. Spain was quite on the international front only playing one game, but Samiter led Barcleona to another Copa del Rey in impressive fashion. In Italy Ferenc Hirzer had a great season leading Juventus to the title scoring 35 in 25 games. In South America Brazil had entered a period of isolation and did not seem to produce many great players for the rest of the decade. Uruguay reasserted their dominance in South America. They broke the streak of home team domination by winning the South american Championships in Chile and defeated rivals Argentina. The won all 4 games with a 17-2 goal differential. In Argentina Roberto Cherro emerged as a new star and Led Boca to another title, while Seoane famously led Independiente to an undefeated championship. The top three again has one standout candidate in my opinion, Alex Jackson who from what I have read was seen as the best player in the world at this time by the British and excelled for both club and country. A second Scottish player is tempting with Gallacher and McStay the prime candidates. Gallacher had a slow first half of the season with Airdrieonians before transferring to Newcastle part way through the year where he scored an amazing 23 goals in 18 games. He also bagged a hat trick vs Ireland but failed to score against Scotland's more serious rivals Wales and England. McStay is a very interesting case, captaining Celtic to the title and unseating the dominant team Rangers (Rangers won the three previous titles and would win five more consecutive after this) with authority winning the league by eight points. Scotland's performance with him as captain speaks for itself as well. I am just unsure if he is viewed as the type of player to receive top three type of recognition, it usually takes a special defender to place highly in these types of awards. Any input here would be greatly appreciated. The final spot seems like it should come from South America, Seoane or a Uruguayan getting the nod. Andrade seems like a good bet as does Scarone. Hirzer is an interesting wildcard for the top three but I still feel like the Italian league was likely seen as slightly behind some of its continental counterparts.