Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Of course they were on a different level, but still De la Torre a reliable defender but different type of players anyway, with De la Torre, Chumpitaz played the technical role and at CA 1975, he played a more rude role.

    Didi thought in lined up a 4-2-4 similar to his playing days and performing the jogo bonito, so the two most technical mids (Chale and Mifflin) played in most matches during Didi's era.
     
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  2. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Surprised not to see Overath in there, I read a few reports that say he was West Germany's best player at the WC, he must have been pretty good for them to state that given Muller's exploits.
     
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  3. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    #428 Raute, Apr 11, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
    3 writers; Danish, Italian, Yugoslavian voted for Overtah in 1970 Ballon d'Or. IMO, he was one of best midfielder in 70WC.
     
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  4. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Out of interest, how do you know how individual nations voted in the Ballon d'Or?
     
  5. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    #430 Raute, Apr 11, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
    Kicker 1971 Nr. 2 p. 13

    @comme if you wanna full list, I will type it just after ate meal.
     
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  6. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    1970 Ballon d'Or voting results

    Belgium
    1. Muller
    2. Moore
    3. Rivera
    4. Overath
    5. Van Hanegem

    Bulgaria
    1. Muller
    2. Banks
    3. Dzajic
    4. Riva
    5. Djorkaeff (father of Youri Djorkaeff)

    Czechoslovakia
    1. Muller
    2. Moore
    3. Riva
    4. Overath
    5. Schesternev

    Denmark
    1. Overah
    2. Banks
    3. Muller
    4. Cruyff
    5. Riva

    East Germany
    1. Moore
    2. Riva
    3. Overath
    4. Muller
    5. Israel

    West Germany
    1. Muller
    2. Dzajic
    3. Beckenbauer
    4. Riva
    5. Lee

    England
    1. Moore
    2. Beckenbauer
    3. Hurst
    4. Muller
    5. Schesternev

    Netherlands
    1. Seeler
    2. Muller
    3. Israel
    4. Riva
    5. Moore

    Finland
    1. Riva
    2. Rivera
    3. Muller
    4. Eusebio
    5. Moore

    France
    1. Muller
    2. Domenghini
    3. Moore
    4. Riva
    5. Overath

    Greece
    1. Beckenbauer
    2. Moore
    3. Dzajic
    4. Seeler
    5. Riva

    Ireland
    1. Muller
    2. Beckenbauer
    3. Riva
    4. Facchetti
    5. Israel

    Italy
    1. Overath
    2. Moore
    3. Mazzola
    4. Muller
    5. Facchetti

    Yugoslavia
    1. Overath
    2. Riva
    3. Moore
    4. Dzajic
    5. Skoblar

    Luxemburg
    1. Dzajic
    2. Moore
    3. Riva
    4. Israel
    5. Kreische

    Norway
    1. Moore
    2. Muller
    3. Lee
    4. Riva
    5. Kindvall

    Austria
    1. Riva
    2. Muller
    3. Van Hanegem
    4. Mazzola
    5. Moore

    Poland
    1. Riva
    2. Muller
    3. Kindvall
    4. Ball
    5. Beckenbauer

    Portugal
    1. Muller
    2. Riva
    3. Cooper
    4. Beckenbauer
    5. Cruyff

    Rumania
    1. Riva
    2. Moore
    3. Overath
    4. Dzajic
    5. Dinu

    Sweden
    1. Riva
    2. Muller
    3. Moore
    4. Beckenbauer
    5. Skoblar

    Switzerland
    1. Moore
    2. Cruyff
    3. Overath
    4. Beckenbauer
    5. Muller

    Spain
    1. Moore
    2. Beckenbauer
    3. Cruyff
    4. Muller
    5. Rexach

    Turkey
    1. Moore
    2. Riva
    3. Cruyff
    4. Muller
    5. Mazzola

    USSR
    1. Muller / Schesternev (no 2nd voting)
    3. Dzajic
    4. Mazzola
    5. Ball

    Hungary
    1. Beckenbauer
    2. Moore
    3. Riva
    4. Dzajic
    5. Hasil
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Peculiar lack of consensus for 1970, even when it's limited to World Cup players only (games that everyone watched; none was included in more than ~75% of the lists). Or a number of frontrunners; eight different players received first place votes. Very scattered.

    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-worst-ballon-dor-winner.2012564/page-4#post-31353053

    And it was a memorable World Cup at that (for some the best edition ever), not a 'less shiny' edition like 1978 where Keegan had a few intangible bonus points from 1977 in his pocket (which became 'transferred' to 1978).
     
  8. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Brilliant. Thank you very much for this!
     
  9. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    I think you will find all Balon d'Or results like that in "Kicker" going back to 1956.
     
  10. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I already find it. However, sadly, they inform only final standing except 1970. So I am waiting that sp1873 uploads France Football.
     
  11. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Probably because it was the first time a German won it.
     
  12. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I agree with you.
     
  13. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Overath was one the first guys outside the 23, but I feel you are right and I should try to fit him in.
     
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  14. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1971

    Ancheta, Atilio (Nacional, Uruguay)
    Artime, Luis (Nacional)
    Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland)
    Bianchi, Carlos (Vélez Sarsfield, Argentina)
    Boninsegna, Roberto (Internazionale, Italy)
    Bremner, Billy (Leeds United, Scotland)
    Chumpitaz, Héctor (Universitario, Peru)
    Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Cubillas, Teófilo (Alianza Lima, Peru)
    Džajić, Dragan (Red Star Belgrade, Yugoslavia)
    Gerson (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
    Keizer, Piet (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Lima, Paulo Cézar (Botafogo, Brazil)
    Lopez, Direcu (Cruziero)
    Maravilha, Dadá (Atletico Mineiro, Brazil)
    Mazzola, Sandro (Internazionale, Italy)
    Morales, Julio César (Nacional, Uruguay)
    Netzer, Günter (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)
    Pastoriza, José Omar (Independiente, Argentina)
    Sotil, Hugo (Deportivo Municipal, Peru)
    Skoblar, Josip (Marseille)
    Tostão (Cruzeiro, Brazil)
    Vogts, Berti (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)

    Honorable Mention: Felix, Lula, Marco Antônio, Zequinha, Toninho Geurreiro, Pedro Rocha, Pablo Forlan, Cesar Maluco, Ademir da Guia, Rivellino, Vanderlei, Ricardo Pavoni, Miguel Raimondo, Manga, Ildo Maneiro, Ramon Mifflin, Charlie George, Ray Kennedy, Martin Chivers, Terry Cooper, Gerd Müller, Franz Beckenbauer, Rinus Israël, Wim van Hanegem, Velibor Vasović, Gerrie Mühren, Johan Neeskens, Wim Suurbier, Paul Van Himst, Raoul Lambert, Wilfred Van Moer, Ferenc Bene, Antonis Antoniadis, Mimis Domazos, Hans-Jürgen Kreische, Pirri, Yevgueni Rudakov

    The top three this year was a puzzle. Cruyff is clearly #1 although this was not his best season. After that it was a total wash. The South American footballer of the year voting makes no sense to me. I can't find any reasons why Tostao would win the award. Cruz failed to win the state league, did not make the final group in the Brazilian Championship and the national team had a pedestrian year. Individually all his goal scoring numbers for club and country were down. Mazzola was second in the European Footballer of the year but I slightly prefer Best and Netzer. Open to any suggestions.
     
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  15. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Looking at Tostao some more and I am honestly considering not putting him in the 23. Anyone with info on why he was award South American Footballer of the Year would be greatly appreciated.
     
  16. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Tostao would have won Bola de Prata (brazilian championship ranking) at 1970, but at 1971 he was faaaar behind Dirceu Lopes, the #1 brazilian that year.
    Maybe a retroactive or consolation award for him at 1971 SAPotY.
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/placar-rankings-brazilian-league.1979379/
     
  17. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Maybe Dirceu Lopes
     
  18. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Great list, one thing I noticed that was for the first time since probaly the war years, players based in South America outweighed those in based in Europe, 12-11.

    Also I see Muller and Beckenbauer did not make the 23, a bit surprising given they were 5th & 6th in the Ballon d'or, again they may have finished that high due to being big names and I do agree that Netzer and Vogts had better seasons hence made the list.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #444 PuckVanHeel, Apr 12, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
    Definitely agree it was not his best season (last season with Michels as manager). It was a season and one of those moments though where possibly a tiny glimpse of his influence was visible. Except for a brief 15 minutes cameo, he missed the first 9 rounds of the league. Ajax was 6th in the table when he returned, and 6 points behind the leader. Then he returned against PSV (1-0 win), played the remainder and they nearly won the league. Little wonder that he became superstitious about his 'lucky' #14 jersey that he wore for the first time.
    They really proper way to do this is btw for whole career (which no one has done so far; even 'GoalImpact' only takes his 1973-1978 and 1981-1984 years).

    If you're looking at calendar year rather than seasons then George Best is for 1971 a good call for a podium. For the 1970-71 or 1971-72 seasons less so though, but the 1971 calendar is exactly when he has strong numbers and quite some vintage performances (amazing goals too). Despite being less mobile, off-the-ball movement and with-ball movement, than he was before. If it's necessary/appreciated, I can post some of these strikes (but given that you're British, I assume/guess you are very familiar with it). 34 goals in 54 games at the 1971 calendar year.
     
  20. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Just in the process of going back over some seasons and Gerhard Hanappi scored 25 goals in 25 games in 1955/6 as Rapid Wien won the league. For a man primarily known as a wing-half that was an incredible achievement. Also won the title the next season.
     
  21. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Excluding Beckenbauer & Muller is quite surprising, especially Beckenbauer. why?

    Bayern was Bundesliga runner-up, DFB-Pokal champion, and reached Fairs Cup quarterfinal. Beckenbauer was 5th place in Ballon d'Or, and 2nd place ahead of Netzer in German Footballer of the Year(Vogts 225, Beckenbauer 154, Netzer 133). He was picked 13 times Kicker's team of the week, it was best records with Berti Vogts in 1970/71(Netzer 9). His NT records were also good.
     
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  22. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I tend to agree with this, I think there is an argument for 4 Germans in a possible top ten this year, there is an argument for good argument for 3/4 Germans in a top ten from 70-75, this was refelcted in the Ballon d'or those years.
     
  23. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Completely agree re Best, top 3 potential for calendar year but for 70-71 season, borderline top ten, I think we walked through the stats in more detail before but 15 league goals before Xmas in 71-72 season but a pretty substantial drop off in the later half of the season would not get him in top ten for the 71-72 season in my view, what also aided his Ballon d'or finish in 71 was a a couple of spectacular goals to add to his prolificy.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I agree too - like the others - they should be among the first 23, somehow and in some way (in particular the 2nd name for 1970-71; promoted to captaincy etc.). But the excellent Andrew Jennings pointed once at a weakness of such awards (as the Ballon d'Or was sponsored and lobbied by the same company since the mid 1960s). Book excerpt from 1992:
    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]


    Among other weaknesses and subjectivities of lists.
     
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  25. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Thanks for the links, and interesting read but they do however only refer to thier off field shady dealings as opposed to any Ballon d'or conspiracies, I do however agree that lobbying takes place and would effect votes, whether Muller and Beckenabauer were big enough names in 71 to benefit largely I am not sure. A slight aside I would be very interested to see the vote breakdown for 1963 and whether it was dominated by Eastern block votes for Yashin, I know we have talked about career awarding Ballon d'or winners and this was I think the worst case, others for Matthews in 56 or Albert in 67, both also had strong seasons and for Albert the lack of a stand out candidate also worked in his favour. I would not say Greaves or Rivera were robbed in 63 but had far stronger cases in my view.

    It is not that unsimilar to todays voting that gets heavily skewed byt "poor voting", some players who had a good major competition or year then get votes the next couple of years from certain coaches and players mainly whether they have had a good year or not, purely as they became a big name in thier stella year.
     

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