Higuain vs Maradona at Napoli

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Bada Bing, Jan 25, 2016.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Such touch maps also exist for Pelé of course; that does not necessarily demonstrate he performed two positions at once ("at elite level"). Besides, the above is an average over 7 games - it does not show the changes per game or the 'standard deviation' (whether all games look like this average; or that the average is a result of playing as a 'striker' in one match and 'central midfielder' in another - to give an extreme example).

    Pelé vs Italy in 1970
    [​IMG]

    Or here at page 2 for Cruijff: http://documents.mx/documents/johan-cruyff.html
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That link also shows other graphs, and also spot the positioning of striker Alloffs/Völler here, and Rummenigge (who was indeed always a little bit more of a striker compared to a Maradona).

    That happens when you play against stronger opponents at a worse venue, and the referees like your 'handy' moves and your team ;) :p

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...azhp-8fmg5BbiFCtPzKME/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0
    http://ussoccerplayers.com/2013/01/by-the-numbers-great-world-cup-performances.html
     
  3. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    I have seen Pele's heat map, it's not quite the same criteria as Maradona's graph accounts for number of touches on the field. But even just looking at Pele's map, it's nowhere near as impressive as Maradona, especially in midfield and below.

    As for standard deviation, it's supposed to measure variability. As most WC teams have done, Argentina in Mexico did not vary its tactics from game to game. In any event, it's an average of seven matches and being that Maradona was the focal player in each match for Argentina, there is little reason to believe there were any drastic changes.
     
  4. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    #54 Pipiolo, Jan 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
    Thanks for the first link, lots of stuff to look at and it's quite interesting. Making some comparisons, Maradona 86 completely owns Pele 70 (the writer on the second link has no clue what he is talking about). The few advantages for Pele are small, whereas Maradona shows many significant differences in his favor, also Hagi 94 looks better than Pele in almost everything except chances created and assists.

    For an attacking player, Kempes 78 owns clearances/blocks/interceptions, only Cruyff comes somewhat close. I can interpret this as them doing a lot of counter pressing on the opponent's defenders or midfielders. Rivaldo and Ronaldo are neck and neck for WCs 98 and 02, Ronaldo has the advantage in the flashy categories (goals and assists) but overall it shows how valuable Rivaldo was to their success, and no one comes anywhere close to his aerial prowess. Romario 94 numbers are actually underwhelming though his passing is excellent, so are Baggio's for the same WC, although he is near the top on recoveries with Cruyff and Hagi. Falcao 82 looks better than Zico 82 except for assists and chances created, and better than Rossi 82 except for goals and chances created. I have yet to find anyone with impressive crossing however.

    What does "recoveries" mean, not sure how it's different to clearances/blocks/interceptions plus tackles won? Also, do you have the numbers for Pele 58, Garrincha 58, and especially Garrincha 62?
     
  5. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    @Bada Bing (aka Dancing Traitor) has posted this topic in Xtratime as well. Many good replies but I enjoyed this one:

    I think it is at least clear by now that DT is not a Messi fanboy with an agenda. Because this thread certainly isn't beneficial for any Messi fanboy. The stats prove he had somebody who's close to Maradona's prime level sharing the pitch with him for the NT and he still couldn't win the World Cup or the Copa America!!! [​IMG]

    http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=417137&page=3

    PS: @Bada Bing, what music do you dance to and who have you betrayed?
     
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  6. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Hahaha, I like how it's IMMEDIATELY obvious that they're the same person when you read just one post.
     
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  7. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Now you are just being mean! Do you know the amount of fun they poke at him on XT? It is enough to turn any other regular fan away, but he sticks around. Not to mention Dagoods is active there. The sheer horror. :D

    We have to give it to Bada Bing. He is to Messi fandom what Messi is to world football. :p
     
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  8. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Country:
    Argentina
    Just read the thread again, what a freaking killing field. Carcases everywhere. :whistling:
     
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  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    That's what I like about XT, it has way too many active posters for any one with a narrow agenda to sabotage the forum. Sadly, it's not quite the case here.
     
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  10. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Country:
    Argentina
    Updated, Higuain with 3 consecutive first team goals. And still standing important with 14 rounds left.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Question for you:

    Do you believe that Higuain is playing better than Messi did in 2009-2010? After all, his involvement rate is higher, and Messi's team won La Liga, while Napoli is leading the Serie A. Based on the criteria you use, Higuain is superior to Messi 2009-2010, right?
     
  12. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Country:
    Argentina
    #62 Bada Bing, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
    Nope, as said before this isn't who was the best, but who's was more important on team results or who "carried" the team more in the league, based on direct contributions. Messi 14-15 is the best Messi has been, yet carried the team less than in 11-13, because this team had also Neymar and Suarez.

    I'm just killing the myth that Maradona "carried" Napoli to first Scudetto, relatively.
     
  13. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Fair enough. I completely agree that he didn't "carry" Napoli to their 1986-1987 title. In fact, many publications did not even rate him as their best player that season.

    It is true, though, that a lot of what Maradona did doesn't come through in stats. He was a fantastic dribbler and very good at setting the tempo in midfield in general. So comparing his "goal involvement" to a player like Higuain (who really doesn't do a whole lot that isn't captured by stats) is a bit of a biased comparison. Basically, looking just at Maradona's goal involvement is akin to looking at Iniesta's goal involvement and concluding that he was unimportant to the team. The problem with it is that, while they're both great passers, a lot of their importance isn't encompassed by goals and assists.
     
  14. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Country:
    Argentina
    Updated statistics. Three consecutive wins for Napoli, Higuain scoring the first goal in every game. Also added Mahrez.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    @frasermc, let us mention @Bada Bing's answer:
    so, @frasermc, the same reasoning can be said in regard to the opposition: The performance of individual would be the same no matter what kind of performance his opposition had.
    Then, all the 'arguement' @Bada Bing was repeating in regard to Pele was based on a false assumption? 1 example:

    So, in this hypothetical scenario of Bada Bing , Messi would have scored the same number of goals he scored in actual reality because the performance of individual will always be the same regardless of how his team played, how his opposition played.

    Bada Bing loves logic, when the topic is Messi outer factors do matter but when it is someone else, everything is nothing, does not matter.
     

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