HEADER statistics in football 2003-now

I never blamed Ronaldo for partaking in that team. All I said that the politics for call up where contradicting.

You must agree that in the end it;s not only the coach who will decide who to call up. CBF president has a lot voice in this. In the end the president must approve. And when Teixerra sees Romario on the prospectus list he could as well as disprove it. But this is my view not a fact.

On the topic though, Why a lightly injured Romario (still prolific striker) will be dropped last minute for WC98, when an out of shape and unfit (overweighted) Ronaldo will be included in WC06 is beyond me.

Ronaldo was way passed his best in 2006. He was fat and not regarded as the best anymore in that time. There was many other good strikers who could do the better them him but Parreira calls him up as a reserve. Consequently, he honoured Ronaldo play time to the expense of tactics so that he could score a personal goal record that would not do NT any benefit in the WC.

Now, we can show proof from media article explaining the reason behind Romario droppings and Ronaldo inclusions in both WC98 and WC02, but it still won't explain why Ronaldo was called up and given play time in WC06. And in my opinion WC06 was a big fiasco between pressure from the (R9) fans and sponsors (Nike) and favouritism from CBF executive (incl president Teixeira) who must have influenced Parreira's decision to include a fat and out of shape Ronaldo last minute. Ronaldo in 2006 had no place in NT squad for tactical reasons. But he was there. Why?

@Pipiolo @leadleader @Bruford

 

Exactly. So next time you and other R9 fans claim that Ronaldo was the better one, think twice. Take a pause for thought. And think out of the box. Cause there might be more then just the game on pitch that influence who's better or not.

Support for a player has more then often to do with how much attention the media will give a player. If a player receives more attention from media, Club and NT management will favour those players more for the profit potential. Pretty much like how politics work. "Favoutitism and clientelism". After all football is a business for profit. Entertainment business. Spectacle sport. It's all about image.

As I explained before, Ronaldo got on the scene right at the dawn of a mass media explosion. He benefited from it. His name was all over the place. he had the talent to back it up. Romario left Europe for Brazil. A less marketable spot. So Romario is less favoured by fans around the world. Which has an impact on voting polls and those magazines you keep quoting. Now you may say that Maradona and Pele played in an even less massed media environment, why are they regarded that high? Well it follows that Romario unfortunate situation is that his peak and prime somehow overlaps with that of Ronaldo era. thus he will always be compared with Ronaldo. pretty much CR7 will always be compared with Messi for playing in the same era. Romario turned on European football right at the time when mass media moved in on European football. Ronaldo was there Romario not.

But in the end either way you look at it and whether you like it or not, it was all image making. There's an extra cloak of magical fog (by the media) surrounding R9 image. And this fog influences how we see him. You may say i have no tangible proof. But actually I have presented some very strong and suggestive clues that my theory points in the right direction. Puck's Dutch video documentaries on Nike-PSV-Ronaldo relations? Which somehow you never responded to.

Ronaldo was more marketable then Romario. The same way Pele was more marketable then Garrincha. On the pitch, neither were better then the other in general. What made one become more popular and liked then the other is just image!

We have debated this standpoint many times before. @leadleader @Pipiolo all had the same views on this. And as i remember Celito also seemed to agree to some extend.

 

Since 92, Romário was regarded by many coaches of the NT as a necessary evil. If the team could do well without him, then he would be discarded. You surely know how problematic he could be. He demanded privileges (like no training), and challenged the authority of many coaches. Ronaldo, on the other hand, was easier to deal with. He had many injuries, but always worked hard to be in shape for major tournaments.
Then, after many years of great performances for the NT, Ronaldo became somewhat untouchable for the NT. Adriano was peaking around 04/06, but still the coach Parreira was not comfortable to bench Ronaldo and go ahead with Adriano-Robinho duo. In 2006 Ronaldo reached very low level of performance for his standards and the brazilian press put high pressure on Parreira for Ronaldo being sacked of the start eleven. Parreira endorsed Ronaldo and the pressure was even higher on him after two weak performances for Ronaldo in WC06. In the third game, he scored a brace against Japan and took down the pressure on Parreira.
I think Brazil could have done much better with Adriano-Robinho upfront, but we will never know.
A curious thing is that nowadays Parreira seems very regretful about some of his choices for WC06. Anyone can assume that he is talking about Ronaldo here (and Adriano and Ronaldinho too in a lesser extend).

"I can not do anything if players are irresponsible to the point of present themselves for a World Cup with those extra pounds. This has no place. In Germany2006 I had in my hands a team without commitment, without ambition, enriched players, not really worrying about the competition. Athletes who do not realize or have forgotten what it means to win the Cup. A team full belly. Tired of achievements. If the legislation Fifa permitted, I would have discarded some players."
http://esportes.r7.com/blogs/cosme-...-chega-disso-exclusiva-com-parreira-04062010/

 

Thanks, your explanation at least makes more sense then the usual responds from James. Ever praising Ronaldo's individual prowess instead of offering an alternative explanation independent of idolism.

Wlle if Parreira had his regrets it only means that @Pipiolo @leadleader were right in that Ronaldo had no place in NT06 on terms of a technical level.

But to respond to the Parreira comment on the squad being too full belly and "tired of achievements" I say that is a very sharp contrast to Spain NT. Spain NT have achieved a lot more then Brazil NT02-06 and they still keep their hunger alive for more. So why would a Brazilian NT composed of players like Adriano-Robinho who never won anything be "tired of achievements"? So its clear that Parreira was not referring to the new stars Robinho-Adriano-Kaka, but rather the veterans Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu etc.

 

[" a team full belly" = no more hunger!] It's not as black and white as this. Tell this to NT70 and see what they say.

What has the bulk of the team members of NT06 achieved that the team members of NT70 had not?

Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and a few others won Copa America 97,99 and WC02 and confederations cup and became "tired of achievements"?
While Pele had won three world cups (not only one), Copa America and a lot more with NT and was still hungry for more.

Pele's NT70 had won everything there was before the WC70 and yet they still showed aggressive hunger in 1970.

Spain NT has been dominating titles for the last decade and they still show hunger to win the next WC14. And beware, they might win it yet again for they're still showing much "Hunger".

So it wasn't NT06 that was "tired of achieving" but rather a few individual players in the team.

I disagree with Parreira since, a coach at his level should have known better, before calling up players who he knew had already shown no interest/ambitions for a few years before 2006. Those full bellies are certainly Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka and the likes. Expecially Ronaldo and Ronaldinho who were showing no interest anymore for some years. But Adriano and Robinho had no right to be sacrificed, instead they were expendables?

@Pipiolo @leadleader @Bruford

 

i am sorry but Ronaldo never won two world cups. Cafu played in WC94 but Ronaldo didn't so it's not fair to claim that Pele's 1.5 games played in WC62 won't grant him a WC while Ronaldo who set on the bench through the entire WC gets a second WC on his name.

I might get my stats wrong but I never deliberately distort information like you do to make my idol look better. R9 never won WC94!

If you grant Ronaldo WC94 for sitting on the bench then so we should grant the cook and physiotherapist of NT a WC on their names. Oh, and don't forget the medic and logistics staff. They all got a medal in the final of WC94.

Ronaldo: 1 WC + 2 copas
Cafu: 2 WC + 2 copas

 

For the question about the lost of ambition of Ronaldo, R. Carlos, Cafu: I guess thats true. I mean, brazilian players in general have the lack of hunger as a characteristic. Its a cultural thing. For most of the best brazilians players, win a WC is the ultimate goal for their career and, achieving that, they feel free to become less professional and have more fun (and Ronaldo was a notable example, you could see it on his weight post-WC02). And Pelé was a exception for this sad rule, since he was a true professional during his entire career.

About Brazil´06, I agree with James about Ronaldo, Cafu and Roberto Carlos: all of them should have been benched. Also, some people in Brazil complain about Ronaldinho´s position on that formation. I mean, Parreira did not build the team around Ronaldinho, the best player of that time. Ronaldinho was very comfortable playing as LW in Barça and Parreira put him as a AM alongside Kaká in the NT. Then, Dinho was a failure in that WC, as we know. Who knows if he could have done better playing on his favorite position, maybe yes.

About Parreira interview, I agree with you. The problem is that Parreira ia a very political coach. Nowadays he says should have discarded fat players, but back then Im sure he would never have taken a shocking decision, he has no courage to break certain rules. So, for him, if the biggest stars were out of shape or in good shape, it doesnt matter, all of them would have a place in the squad.

 

Without seeming to push to hard for Romario.

I am posting this video to show what I believe to be the very best one/first touch/trap player I ever seen.


Have you really seen first touch like this?

 

We are using the words in a difference sense here. Let me say, if hunger means just a simple will, I also have hunger to play like Pelé. However, Im not doing anything to achieve this goal, I just Wake up and go to work as a lawyer.

Now, if you compare Ronaldo or Ronaldinho concentration and ambition to be able to achieve their goals with Messi and C.Ronaldo´s, you will see a huge difference. The latter 2 are great professional. And thats why I believe Messi will challenge Pelé status at the end of his career and C.Ronaldo will be in Ronaldo tier (even with less raw talent). Both players work hard to improve their skills, while Ronaldo, Romário and Ronaldinho wasted their raw talents in some extend due to lack of concentration and true ambition.

About WC06, I agree that I dont think Ronaldinho and Kaká problem was the lack of ambition. They did everything they could before the WC to be well prepared to won it. However, Parreira did not help them. And Ronaldo, Cafu and Roberto Carlos condition also did not help them. Anyway, only Ze Roberto had a good performance that time, the whole team was a disappointment.

 

Great touch, but yes I've seen first touches like that from others. Another one that scored from a similar move was Cassano, after 4:30

 

Wow, ******** me!

That touch at 4:33 was just like the Romario one in my video but even more sensational.

Cassano played with passion, style, great touch, great vision, great pass. And after checking his records on wiki, I realise that for a "second striker" he had not bad a scoring record either. At age 31 he's still got some more to show.

 

Now you're being a bit inconsistent here.

First,
Maradona is regarded as Pele's equal if not better by many pundits out there. He only won a single WC right?

So Messi doesn't need two, but only one WC.

Second,
Now why does CR7 need 2 Euros, since Ronaldo never won one single Euro ever? (apart from irrelevant UEFA Cups)

Cruyff (better then all of these players) never won a single WC so why does CR7 need a WC to be better then R9?

CR7 is a UCL champion! So he already bettered R9 long ago.

In League football CR7>>>R9. Long ago!

@Bruford @Pipiolo @leadleader @Edhardy

 

Yes but it doesn;t matter if it was 90% or 70% or 50% of the time. The point is that Maradona has been on numerous occasions being regarded as equal by both pundits and fan polls alike.

Now, since Maradona won only one single WC and Cruyff and Eusebio won neither. You should be a little bit lenient on CR7 for not winning one.

Ronaldo won 1 WC but Cruyf and Eusebio and Puskas and DiStefano (who didn't) are still regarded higher then R9.

I guess you're using your magic stick again to judge players as usual.

Why has CR7 has to win a WC while Cruyff, Eusebio not?

Messi has no interesting NT performances and he's already way above R9! Don't quote me, it's 99% of the world's opinion!

@leadleader @Pipiolo @Edhardy @Bruford

 

Maradona won the most important poll of them all, the one sanctioned by FIFA and he obliterated Pele in the voting there

Of course Cruyff is a far greater player than Ronaldo, it's not even comparable. Even if he did not win the WC, his performance in it has become part of the collective consciousness, it is timeless. Winning the WC is great, but Luca Toni, Jorge Valdano, Pedro, are all WC winners

 

Yeah that's right Pipiolo I don't see the point James made.

And Toto Schillaci also won a World Cup and so did Paolo Rossi, Bebeto, Kaka, Klinsman etc. Are they better then R9?

According to your principle, of course not right?

So what are you saying here @JamesBH11 ???

 

Rossi, Bebeto and Klinsmann were excellent players all, in face legends. But also mediocre players will become WC winners, so it's good to see how they played, what their contribution was, plus the rest of their career. In all, Cruyff >>> Ronaldo, despite not having won the WC.

@greatstriker11

 

As I said sometime before, there is no way to think that Copa América has the same value of Eurocup. Only since Copa América 2007 all the the NT put their Squads A in the competition. Before that, only a few teams played with their stars. In Copa 97, only Brazil (which was already qualified for WC98), Bolívia and Paraguay played with Squads A. The other teams played with their Squads B, because their priority was WC qualifiers, not Copa América. And this same fact used to happen in almost every Copa América. I mean, the main player for Argentina in that competition was Gallardo. Chile had no Salas or Zamorano, etc. So, we have to find another way to rate South American players, because they can´t play Euro and Copa América has gained some prestige only in the last 5 years.

 

I agree. Good point.

 

Taking in count both Ronaldo and Cristiano overall stats in the highest level football competitions:

World Cup
Ronaldo - 19 games/ 15 goals - 0.78 GPG All time top scorer - 1 WC + 1 WC final
C. Ronaldo - 10 games/ 2 goals - 0.2 GPG
Note: Cristiano had 2 good Euro performances (04 and 12)

Uefa Champions League
Ronaldo - 40 games / 14 goals - 0.35 GPG (also has 2 games/2 goals in UCL 04/05 qualifiers)
C. Ronaldo - 97 games/ 59 goals - 0.60 GPG - 1 UCL + 1 UCL final

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/c...veiro/leistungsdaten/spieler_8198_gesamt.html
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler_3140.html