Has there been a better crop than 1987?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Madara Uchiha, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Good list, my picks for 1989-1999 would be:

    1989: Gareth Bale
    1990: Toni Kroos
    1991: Eden Hazard
    1992: Neymar

    These are pretty much guaranteed at this point unless something extraordinary happens. Griezmann has a shout for 1991 but I rate Hazard higher overall.

    After that it becomes very tricky

    1993: Pogba (Dybala, Kane)
    1994: Sterling
    1995: Sane (Martial)
    1996: Asensio (Dele Alli, Coman)
    1997: Dembele
    1998: Mbappe
    1999: Donnarumma

    To be honest there’s no way to guess yet. We need to see how their careers pan out.
     
  2. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    1965 xi
    Chilavert
    Des Walker
    Irwin
    Blanc (libero)
    Kohler
    Aldair
    José Perdomo
    Stojkovic
    Rai
    Riedle
    Hagi
     
  3. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    1935 xi
    Tilkowski
    Armfield
    Giacomo Losi
    Jan Popluhar (libero)
    José Ramos Delgado
    Ivan Dimitrov
    Luis del Sol
    Cliff Jones
    Luis Suárez Miramontes
    Lajos Tichy/José Sanfilippo
    Omar Sivori
     
  4. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    1926xi
    Carrizo/Grosics
    Virgilio Mendes
    Rafael Lesmes (do trophies count?:)
    Ockwirk (libero)
    Ivica Horvat
    Blanchflower
    Basora
    Di Stefano
    Victor Ugarte
    Ted Robledo
    Egisto Pandolfini
     
  5. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    I'd have Jonk at midfield then very probably.
     
  6. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    1918xi
    Erwin Ballabio
    Börje Leander
    Noronha
    Björn Spydevold
    Veikko Asikainen
    Angel Zubieta
    Vicente de la Mata
    Labruna
    Peyroteo
    Wilf Mannion
    Pedernera
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Somewhat surprising and strange to realize that Shevchenko has as many Champions League goals as the other three combined. Shevchenko has 48 in the main tournament ( + 11 in qualifiers), the other three combined 49 (17 for Totti, 16 each for the other two).
    Despite that, Ronaldo is the runaway and the obvious pick for this year. I think most would do (and I did the same, and still think so).

    Similarly, one would maybe expect Totti to have the most assists in the Champions League, but of this year Seedorf has that honor (born 1 April 1976), even with excluding set pieces, and from central positions. Not meant to argue against Totti's creativity though.
     
  8. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    It takes two to tango
     
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  9. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    1920xi
    Ignacio Eizaguirre
    Alf Ramsey
    Knut Nordahl
    Roy Paul
    Augusto Da Costa
    Danilo Alvim
    Ernst Melchior
    Gunnar Gren
    René Pontoni
    Fritz Walter
    Abe Lenstra
     
  10. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    1921xi (got goals?)
    Barbosa
    Ferenc Rudas
    Stankovic
    János Borzsei
    Roger Bocquet
    Sune Andersson
    Zizinho
    Nordahl
    Telmo Zarra
    Karl Decker
    Stan Mortenson
     
  11. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    It’s still early but 1993 has the potential to be very special

    Oblak
    Semedo - Varane - Umtiti - Guerreiro
    Pogba - Fabinho - Draxler
    Dybala
    Kane - Icardi​

    Bench: Butland, Pereira, Rudiger, Digne, Rafinha, Barkley, Joa Mario, Lanzini, Lukaku
     
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  12. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    1965 vs 1972?


    Chilavert vs Coupet
    Des Walker vs Markus Babbel
    Irwin vs Ziege
    Blanc vs Rui Costa (or Christian Wörns)
    Kohler vs Stam
    Aldair vs Thuram CB
    José Perdomo vs Zidane
    Stojkovic vs Figo
    Rai vs Rivaldo
    Riedle vs Hasselbaink
    Hagi vs Nedved

    This would be my favorite match-up.
    Obviously, 65 would win against this unbalanced side but with a few tweaks things could go the other way. 65 has the best creators but these arent as good at finishing as 72.
    A juggle by Rai, followed by some Stojkovic magic, only te be squandered by a Hagi longshot. Then a Coupet goalkick would find Rivaldo, who either chests it up for a bicyclekick finish, or cuts to his left for a canonball decider.

    What would your favorite match-up be?
     
  13. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    1901xi
    Zamora
    Karl Rainer
    Umberto Caligaris
    Johann Tandler
    Nasazzi
    José Leandro Andrade
    Luis Monti
    Leopoldo Conti/József Braun/György Molnár
    Julio Libonatti
    György Orth
    Raimundo Orsi
     
  14. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Yes, the crop of 1901 was arguably better. Despite that the players played a century ago, most of their names are still remembered today as pertaining to the best of all time.
    Of 1987 Messi, Suárez, Vidal will enter that category. And Higuain, Cesc may very well be remembered aswell. And Pique, Vertonghen might last locally.
    Of 1901 All players are mentioned atleast once on Tom Stevens' ballon d'or lists, many with podium finishes.
    Raimundo Orsi , Luís Monti, Andrade, Nasazzi and Zamora are alltimers of the first degree. James and Orth may pertain to this group aswell.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Past saturday:
    I was doubting a bit about the best way to do this, but wanted to make a better distinction between defenders and attackers.

    1941 Bobby Moore (Florian Albert)

    For more creative players I think the best alternatives are Gerson and Florian Albert. A pity that so little of Albert has been preserved (relative to contemporaries; also of his standout 1962 World Cup there's very little).
    Josip Skoblar is maybe next, or Mario Corso. For other defenders most probably Albert Shesternev, then there's a gap. From England you have Mullery and Hurst. As a sidenote: Alex Ferguson is from 1941 too.

    Possibly Florian Albert is a realistic option, but Gerson I'd say no (like Moore, he leans for a large part on his national team contribution).






    1945 Franz Beckenbauer (Gerd Müller)

    Realistically there is no alternative. Gerd Müller clearly, if there has to be one.

    Other somewhat bigger names are Wilfried van Moer (thanks to euro 1980, after four leg breaks in his career), Karol Jokl, Ilija Petkovic, Martin Chivers, Jupp Heynckes, Istvan Juhasz. After this group there is really very little.

    There are other defensive players of some name: Ladislao Mazurkiewicz, Pat Jennings, Peter Storey, Wim Suurbier, Romeo Benetti, Paco Sa, Dragan Holcer and Pablo Forlan (father of Diego Forlan).

    The fathers of Scandinavian icons Michael Laudrup and Jari Litmanen were also born in 1945 (Finn and Olavi - both footballers themselves). Odd Iversen was born in 1945 too, the father of Steffen Iversen.

    ---

    To be continued, feedback would be welcome. I'll highlight too years like 1957 (Bryan Robson, 'TalkSport' picked Hoddle) and 1958 (Hugo Sanchez).
     
  16. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I had a template for 58 with
    Mágico González
    Förster
    Rabah Madjer
    Kenny Sansom
    Terry Butcher
    Neville Southall
    Sören Lerby
    Hugo Sanchez
    Salah Assad
    Lakhdar Belloumi
    And Volodymyr Bessonov

    Go Algeria!
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thank you very much - yes, I wanted to make the picks a bit more transparent, show the thoughts, and make a better distinction between defensive and offensive players. You have covered it very well :thumbsup:

    From 1958 I have also, when broadening this (not in any order): Paco Buyo, Carlos Manuel, Bernard Genghini, Klaus Berggreen, Sergei Baltacha, Hugo de Leon, John Metgod, Volodymyr Bezsonov, Heinz Hermann (Switzerland), Tita (Brazil), Victor Diogo, Giuseppe Dossena, David O'Leary, Julio Cesar Uribe, Pietro Fanna, Juan Antonio Senor, John Aldridge, Di Gennaro, Olartichoechea, Luizinho, Roy Aitken.

    I thought/think Hugo Sanchez is the outstanding player from this group (also by watching him play - the only thing is that he occasionally could be inconsistent and a bit selfish and/or not in sync with the rest of the team).






    1958 Hugo Sanchez (Karl-Heinz Förster)
     
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  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    1948 Eddie Gray (Ray Clemence)

    'Talksport' picked Ray Clemence.

    Already some thoughts have been shared. Other players of this year are: Anastasi, Sandy Jardine, Trevor Brooking, Channon, Clemence, Delio Onnis, Colin Todd, McFarland, Koncilia, Haan, Sparwasser, Tomaszewski, Van Beveren, Geels, Stan Bowles, Panenka, Acimovic, Szmuda, Ancheta, Dietz, Flohe, Schwarzenbeck, David Hay, Laszlo Balint, Luis Galvan, Enver Maric, Josip Katalinski, Juan Jose Munante, Manuel Bento.

    I did have some doubts on picking two First Division players, but around this time the league was #1 in the coefficients so it is not totally wrong.

    Eddie Gray had a problematic international career (for Scotland) but that was not only his fault. Someone like Leeds team mate Peter Lorimer has only 21 caps too.

    This is his to-the-point profile for the 'national football museum' - it covers some of the points I'm tempted to make
    http://www.nationalfootballmuseum.com/halloffame/eddie-gray

    Here wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gray_(footballer,_born_1948)

    A major factor working in favor of Billy Bremner (who is always placed ahead) and Johnny Giles (who is sometimes placed ahead as a Leeds player), is that they were there from the very beginning of the Leeds success story, and still there at the end.

    Eddie Gray scored not as many goals as Bremner, despite being a winger. He also missed some of the finals (the 1965 FA Cup final when he was too young; the 2nd leg of the 1967 Fairs Cup final; 2nd leg of the 1968 Fairs Cup final; the 1971 Fairs Cup final; the 1973 Cup Winners Cup final). The 1970 FA Cup final is probably the best final he played.

    Giles is born 1940, Bremner 1942.

    It's not set in stone but I'm tempted to pick him for this year. There are a number of 'big' Leeds games in Europe where he stands out over his team mates, and where his technical class surfaces.



    Later in his career he became a left back, and was Leeds their player of the year in 1982.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #44 PuckVanHeel, Jan 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018

    On 'reddit' and youtube - not TalkSport - there are a few who would pick Batistuta for 1969, and before seeing that I thought about it too, since he is after all one of the leading strikers of his time (if not the main one).

    https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/62e93u/the_best_footballer_born_every_year_from_1970_1999/

    In the end I thought the goals would be a main part for Batistuta his case, to separate him - even if he wasn't like Lineker, or even Muller. He has around 325 career goals (including the one season in the Serie B), but Bergkamp has around 310 career goals. Batistuta has also at least 35 more penalties in his career (both were excellent penalty takers by the way, over 90 and 95% conversion, if we add the shoot-outs to get a decent sample size for 'The Iceman').

    The competitions and circumstances were obviously not the same, but it is of course possible to look at the competitions both played in an international setting (and since both are from the same year, we do evade the 'different era' problem this time).

    At the World Cup Batistuta scored 6 open play goals in 9 games (+ 4 penalties). His open play goals came against Greece, Japan and Jamaica.

    Bergkamp scored 6 open play goals in 12 games at the World Cup (no penalties). Four of those goals came against Brazil and Argentina (both well taken), and Yugoslavia and Ireland. The other two came against Morocco and South Korea.

    Then at international level for his club Batistuta has 12 goals in 43 (ratio of 0.28). Bergkamp has 30 in 94 (0.32), with the last four years taking down his average as a goalscorer (he also played deeper).

    Batistuta has three major topscorer titles, Bergkamp five. At the international level it is two each (in major tournaments).

    As an assister and pre-assister there is no comparison I think. Either at major competitions (Bergkamp top assister in at least four tournaments, Batistuta probably once or never) or at league level (Bergkamp among the top three assisters of the league nine times in his career, if not more often - with taking very, very few set pieces). As a rough illustration.

    I hope I am not biased but Batistuta is as an individual the solid #2 for me. I'm not going to mention club results/trophies or international results/trophies, because by that token Lothar Matthaus turns into a markedly greater player as Diego Maradona, and that is not how it works.


    1969 Dennis Bergkamp (defensive player: Oliver Kahn)
    (the next defensive player is perhaps Fernando Couto)


    Next I'll do is 1949.
     
  20. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    To shed the bias, it would be fair to only compare serie A and WC. Yet Fiorentina is not Inter, and nor is Roma.
    I recall that back in the day all young players wanted to be Batistuta. And his cannonballs were indeed stellar, not to say that for a few years he was regarded as the best player in the world.
    Bergkamp never reached such heights.

    However in 2002 I saw Batistuta live. His legs were gone and was completely static, despite the wintry weather. Bergkamp was still going strong, no contest.

    To conclude, Batigoal for peak career and Iceman for longevity. You can go either way.
     
  21. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Messi will be remembered as a top 3 player ever, at least, and the GOAT in the eyes of many.

    Suarez is the best striker of this generation (the 2010s)

    Vidal is one of the best b2b midfielders of this generation, who lead Chile to back-to-back Copa America trophies.

    Higuain will also be remembered as one of the best strikers of this generation who broke the Serie A goalscoring record.

    Fabregas is second behind only Ryan Giggs with the most assists in the Premier League. One of the best midfielders of this generation.

    Pique and Bonucci are two of the best defenders of this generation. Pique in particular has won everything there is to win in football.

    Khedira won the World Cup with Germany and the Champions League with Real Madrid.

    Vertonghen and Hart will be remembered as club heroes for Tottenham and Manchester City respectively.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    When was Batigoal seen as the best player in the world according to you? Which years? He was by many seen as the best striker of his time.

    In terms of young players aspiring: then I think more of Ronaldo Fenomeno who had that impact.

    Just asking
     
  23. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Logical questions.
    I have to rephrase my statement. Recalling TV interviews, personal statements and just googling that Simeone wanted to be Batistuta for a day:
    During the 2nd half of the 90s, many kids, including young players, wanted to be Batistuta. But this does not mean that he was seen as the best player in the world.

    I guess he made a good idol, with the goals, the look, the powerful style and not to forget the machine gun.

    (lol, now Im drawing parallels with how I, myself, wanted to be BA Baracus of the A-team. That look, the powerful style and not to forget the machine guns.)
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    1949 Teofilo Cubillas (Peter Shilton)




    Other offensive players of this year: Franco Causio, Paulo Cesar Caju, Leivinha, Hugo Sotil, John Toshack, Klaus Fischer, Carlos Bianchi, Leopoldo Luque, Brian Kidd, Seninho (Portugal), Lou Macari, Henning Jensen, Viktor Kolotov, Conny Torstensson, Kristen Nygaard, Carlos Babington, Juan Manuel Asensi, Quini, Antonello Cuccureddu, Bernd Cullmann, Dennis Tueart, Volodomyr Onyshchenko, Jupp Kapellmann, Manfred Burgsmuller.

    Other defensive players of this year: Per Rontved, Clodoaldo, Ruud Krol, Luis Pereira, Morten Olsen, Jerzy Gorgon, Evgeny Lovchev, Paulo Cesar Carpegiani, Ronnie Hellstrom, Enrique Wolff, Rodolfo Manzo, Emerson Leao, Anatoliy Konkov, Ivan Buljan, Daniel Killer.

    Arsene Wenger is also from 1949.

    I think Cubillas with his ability makes sense as #1. He has also done enough outside of the World Cups or Copa America to merit it.

    For defensive players I was doubting a lot between Peter Shilton, Ruud Krol and Ronnie Hellstrom. I flipped a coin and Shilton came out on top, but still think the other two would be fine as well.
     
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  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    1950 Roberto Bettega (Marius Tresor)

    The year 1950 is one I've changed. I changed Caszely in Bettega, although I still tend to think Caszely was the better footballer, and also did well when he played in the Spanish league (not that much worse as Mario Kempes).




    Bettega in the 1983 European Cup final




    Others of this year: Ubaldo Fillol, Bogicevic, McGrain, Yorath, Hector Scotta, Lato, Caszely, Ondrus, Brindisi, Ruben Ayala, Szarmach, Hartford, Currie, Humberto Coelho, Nelinho, Mauro Bellugi, Jerkovic, Sljivo, Paulo Pulici, Iordanescu, Marian Masny, Dudu Georgescu, Edvaldsson, Julio Baylon, Tom Lund, Klaus Wunder, Pavel Panov, Hugo Hovenkamp, Millecamps, Charlie George, Rolf Russmann, Kurt Jara, Vicente del Bosque.
     

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