Has Nigeria finally turned the corner?

Discussion in 'Africa' started by Unak78, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. HomokHarcos

    HomokHarcos Member+

    Jul 2, 2014
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why did Nigeria have a huge decline in the 2000's? At the 1994 and 1998 World Cups Nigeria played very well, in my opinion the best African team in history. In any case they looked like they had set themselves up to be Africa's best chance at winning the World Cup in the future. But since 1998 they have been poor at the World Cup only winning one game. I hope 2018 will be at least a return to form of the 1990's.
     
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  2. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  3. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Iwobi can't seem to break it to another level, but the most worrying is Guardiola's mismanagement of Iheanacho. A player with his scoring record and he can't even make the bench.

    Honestly Pep is probably the only coach in the world that would play players like Nolito or Navas over the guy that was just recently the best goalscorer in Europe and just 20... It's not even like Iheanacho did anything wrong...
     
  4. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #79 Unak78, Apr 6, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
    Not his type of player. Which would be fine if he would just sell or loan him. He's trying to fundamentally change the dynamics of City as a club, I get that. I just wish he'd just sell Iheanacho and not use a 20 year old as a contingency plan. Find a journeyman veteran to do that with. They could have kept Bony for that...

    I'm also worried that Iheanacho's father might be keeping him there bc he doesn't want anything less than City and is ignorant as to how this is hurting his son's career. He pushed Iheanacho from signing with Arsenal and Porto, both of whom would have given him a more honest assessment and found out where his potential lies by now. And, to be fair, under the previous manager, he was getting this. But this is City and there were no guarantees. Especially with the current state of African footie he has to prove himself. It could have more easily been done at a smaller club... a non-English club better still...

    Look at the US. Most Americans are still fans of the EPL, but the best young Americans who are abroad are in the Bundesliga because the skills that we need are taught better there. In addition, young players with intelligent handlers go to clubs that are known for bringing along their youngsters. EVERYONE KNEW that City has never been that type of club. The two clubs he passed over??? Both are clubs known for bringing along young players. Where did Christian Pulisic go? Borussia. Given a choice between Borussia and Bayern, Iheanacho's father would have pushed him to go to Bayern so that he could spend the next 3 years on the bench until he's transferred for 3 million euros to a second division team...

    We need to be smarter about where our young players are positioned for development. Let Iheanacho's story be a lesson. Look at Isaac Success. He went to a mid-table Spanish club. A league with strong technical aspects which a young player would do well to learn. He didn't have to fight for playing time and learned proper football. Iheanacho should not have gone to City... At this point, one might say that maybe the club had made promises to Iheanacho and this is why he has not made more noise about a loan move. But if he's still there after the summer window, then he may no longer care about his development and is happy getting a paycheck and being able to say that he's on a "big club"...
     
  5. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Biggest thing was a loss of creativity. You haven't seen Nigerian (or many Africans) in the mold of Jay Jay Okocho, Abedi Pele or others since the 90s. Many theories abound from the fact that Europeans have pegged African players into the Bouba Diop mould and creative attackers never get signed. That's a problem that should have a simple solution, since you can still see creative black European players like Dembele and Pogba get time. They also didn't get developed in England. So who knows why it happened, but it did happen. African football has struggled to re-define itself since.

    Ghana did well during this period but one of their biggest cogs in the midfield was born abroad in KPB. Sulley Muntari wisely avoided the EPL for many years in his career, choosing Italy instead. Boateng developed in Germany.

    For Nigeria, at least, we need to stop being so focused on England. At the moment, it has money but it is not a very technical league in comparison to Germany, Spain or even Italy. I would wager that a good winger in the Bundesliga could capably fill in a more central creative role in England. That's because everyone plays the ball at their feet and aren't having to resort to hoofing it upfield all the time. Everyone learns how to play properly there. That is not often the case in England. Even imported coaches struggle there because it's easier to compromise your ideas than to change the way the league has evolved.
     
  6. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    There are signs of such players with Sadio Mane a livewire player, South Africa's Keagan Dolly, Cote d'Ivoire's Jean Seri, but so far the high hopes I had for Adama Traore (the Monaco one, not the headless chicken one) and Bertrand Traore, but it hasn't exactly worked out for them so far. They are potential team leaders, but they need to be given the trust to be as such.

    As for Nigeria Kelechi Nwakali should be pampered to oblivion.
     
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  7. HomokHarcos

    HomokHarcos Member+

    Jul 2, 2014
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You've already brought this up, but a lot of players need to stop signing for the biggest clubs when they know they are going to end up on the bench. And when they do well, they need to not sign with a bigger club (Shinji Kagawa leaving Borussia Dortmund for Manchester United ended up looking like a terrible decision in retrospect). I also feel for James Rodrigues after joining Real Madrid. I'm not sure if this is wrong thinking on my part, but it seems like people from fringe soccer countries are held to higher standards and get judged more often. The Bundesliga does seem to be an exception.
     
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  8. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #83 Unak78, Apr 6, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
    The Bundesliga is a major exception which is why you're seeing so many Americans who have played or are currently playing there. England gave few Americans chances. Even ones with talent, would be given shorter leashes than like-wise challenged Englishmen. Right now Christian Pulisic is a potential world class #10. He wouldn't have gotten near the time to develop in the EPL on a club in a Champions League position. Not a chance. They'd have given Ross Barkley his minutes and insisted that Pulisic didn't understand the game as well.

    Smart handlers know this. They know where they may get the most money, but they usually have the long-view in mind. They instead send them where the initial money and prestige might not be quite as big, but the player will become a commodity going forward. I really really hope that Gernot Rohr leaves behind a small legacy that gets more Nigerian footballers looking at the Bundesliga rather than the EPL. This is the biggest change that could take place.
     
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  9. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Nwakali signed for an English club. He's already finished...
     
  10. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    That club is Arsenal which is one club that has a long history of promoting their youth players. In and around the first team there are some 9 players form Arsenal's youth ranks. Arsenal and to a lesser extent Tottenham are good development teams.
     
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  11. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Arsenal under Wenger has that history. Who knows how long it lasts if Wenger is pushed out after this year...

    ...still, given what he knew at the time that he signed, it is still a smarter decision than the one that Iheanacho's father made for him. But the other note is that we are too wedded to English football, which isn't the most technical and it shows with England's progressive regression almost mirroring that of Nigeria's during a period that saw more and more Nigerians start their careers there.
     
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  12. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    That why I think Osimhen will be a star. Right league, right club, right time (Mario Gomez their only striker is 32).

    All the Nwakali's, Iheanacho's and so on messed up bad with England. Italy, Portugal, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium is where to go.

    Especially look at Belgium, which is doing wonders for our young players. For one Wilfried Ndidi fully developed because of starting in Belgium. Now he's moved as a key player and is irreplaceable after 10 games. I expect the same from for example Henry Onyekuru.

    Holland: where else would a 20 year old goalkeeper in Andre Onana be a team starter for one of the top league clubs?
     
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  13. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Oghenakaro Etebo has progressed nicely on Feirense as well. I think that Nigerians buy into the marketing of the EPL and think that it's the pinnacle of football when all it is money declining substance. Especially in the mid-table where teams resort to simplistic tactics in order to stay in the league at all costs. These tactics affect the manner in which even the top clubs have had to adapt their own play in order to compensate which limits their ability to adapt in European competition. Chelsea have largely resisted this as much as possible due to the playmaking skills of Hazard, but who knows if even Hazard or Aguero's potential has been limited by having played in England as opposed to Germany or Spain for so many of their formulative years.
     
  14. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Italy is looking good for Nigerians. Nura Abdullahi has been unlucky with injury, Umar Sadiq however has been getting chances. But it seems like Orji Okonkwo hit the nail on the head with his move to Bologna. He should make the Bologna first team in no time looking at his progression there.
     
  15. Italy, their national team goalie is younger than Onana;)
     
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  16. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    But he is an Italian in Italy. Not the same.

    Btw what is it with Cameroon and goalkeepers? They always have good goalies and some world class. Even now Kameni is very good nearing on elite...
     
  17. TheHitman47

    TheHitman47 Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    I'm going to have to disagree about the EPL not being good for young players, or it not being a technical league. It is a good and technical league if you have the right tools, but the problem is about determination.

    In Kelechi Iheanacho's case, if City stuck with Pellegrini, we wouldn't have this comment about Iheanacho being wasted talent because he would be used properly and used to his strengths. Pep Guardiola is a tactically inflexible manager who is only good with a certain type of player. If a player can't fit that he doesn't use him.

    It also doesn't help with Iheanacho's shortcomings as well. He has a first touch that leaves things to be desired and apart from his finishing doesn't have much in his all around game. A team that can play to his strengths and give him the playing time to get where he needs to be is something.

    Also going to a big club as your first assignment isn't always wrong, it's about ambition. Some young players can make it off the bat in a big club, like Messi, but it comes down to the player and their ability to adapt to the system. Not all African players should settle with going to a lower league team if they have the talent and the ability to handle a steep learning curve.

    Iheanacho will be fine.
     
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  18. TheHitman47

    TheHitman47 Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    The EPL is also a good preparation for international football. Many of the World Cup winning teams in the past 25 years have had a significant contingent of players in the Premier League. It's a physical and fast league that is very similar to international football, I would even say even moreso than the Champions League.
     
  19. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    #94 zahzah, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
    Still looking at three talents Ndidi made the best choice:
    - Iheanacho started big, but got shafted by an inflexible coach (BTW I disagree with you because Iheanacho also has a good passing and long shot arsenal, so its not just finishing, plus he has an overall intelligence to his game)
    - Iwobi was given a steep learning curve and it was too steep
    - Ndidi started way below his talent level, excelled and now looks like Nigeria's first truely world class player in years.

    So far Success has been a big dissapointment. He still has the talent, but he can't seem to get his head straight. Now compare him to Onyekuru who now has all the hype because of his displays for Eupen in Belgium.

    Another problem with Nigeria and the EPL is that a lot of players can't play in the EPL because of the Brits labor rules. Kelechi Nwakali is playing well below his capabilities in the Dutch second division, but he really should be in a decent league fighting for a first team slot. He's off on low, because he couldn't get a work permit.

    You have to remember that unlike Messi who was trained in La Masia and also had a proper upbringing in Argentina or European or South American players in general, the Nigerian kids are brought up often from pretty poor living conditions and played in talent academies, then get thrown into the deepend in Europe where they either sink or swim. In these conditions its often better to work your way up and get accustomed to everything.

    BTW With all the hype surrounding Mbappe it's worth noting that Iheanacho has a very similar goalscoring rate...
     
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  20. TheHitman47

    TheHitman47 Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    You have a point on working you way up for African kids, but I've seen some of the backwater leagues that our kids play in and some of them are the same level as the Nigerian League.

    Iheanacho does have flaws in his game like his first touch which will improve but


    Also Iwobi was raised and trained in Europe so his case is much different than many of the players we talk about. He went a similar cycle to what most English players go through which means his progression should be similar.
     
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  21. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #96 Unak78, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
    Current rumors have Iheanacho being either loaned to, or sold with a buy-back clause to Hoffheim in the Bundesliga. Hoffheim are currently occupying a Champions League spot and the entire sale relies heavily on their keeping it. Another, far less likely, but eminently more desirable rumor has BVB interested, but I've only seen this in one article. That said, it's like the football gods are reading my mind, or Gernot Rohr is doing for Nigeria what Klinsmann did when he was in the USMNT, and pushing his prospects using any contacts that he has in Germany. I can't imagine that he has quite the pull that Jurgen does, but he has managed there and they would listen to him.

    But I have to disagree with @TheHitman47 on the EPL as a developmental league. Technically, the EPL suffers from the double-headed monster of it's own success and the identity crisis that is English football as a whole. Even in it's 1960's World Cup heyday, England has always been lacking in a defining style that could ever be said to have changed football. England may have invented the game, but owing to their own arrogance stemming from that fact, they were late to the party in international competition. Many of the current powers were involved from the first WC and beforehand. Because of this, you don't have a Cattenacio, Totol Football or the like from England. They've always been playing catchup and thus always seem to be constantly changing directions with the national team looking for traction in any direction. This is why you have so many foreign managers holding down jobs on their league's top clubs. The other factor is that, due to the league's popularity and tv contracts, clubs are a bit more evenly matched and thus the lower end clubs are less willing to simply play football with the upper tier clubs. Negative tactics are more engrained in the EPL, even among the mid-table clubs. Defensive tactics and direct play (by European standards) are heavily favored. This affects not only how the top teams must adapt their games to manage this, but also how foreign managers must adapt their own plans in order to succeed. Pep Guardiola's struggles here are most acute since he refuses to accept the reality that you cannot build a touch-style with false 8s up and down the pitch in attack that will succeed game in and out in EPL and accumulate the points needed to win the league consistently. Most foreign managers will almost always compromise a little of that to adapt. Italian managers tend to thrive well there since they're more defensively minded to begin with and know how to build successfully efficient countering football tactics.

    This affects the manner in which elite players develop here. It's one thing to develop your game in a more football-friendly environment where the ball is played to the feet more and allows them to focus on their dribbling and first touch while they're developing and then move to England. It's about how the competition differs between top clubs vs them and lesser clubs. Spanish clubs play more open tactics in their league and can take that same style to the Champions league and not have to adapt a way to play other top clubs. English clubs are forced to play a more direct style in their league and are less equipped to adapt. An this is a phenomenon that has been building moreso in recent years as the money up and down the EPL haas grown. A player like Jozy Altidore (even Bony) who did well in the Netherlands utterly struggled when transplanted to the EPL because he thrived when he had the ball played consistently to his feet and was unable to handle the role that Sunderland often needed him to in a lone striker position and often having to find ways of catylizing scoring opportunities off of set pieces or crosses in the air. The best players like Aguero or Hazard who came in mostly already developed are already good enough creatively to adapt, but it's clear that their game stagnates in this type of environment because, while they're strong enough touch-wise to create in an environment that limits creativity, they're also forced to change their mentality and economize their effect on the game vs more limited play with their feet so much that it's hard for them to switch gears in situations where the matches are more wide-open and less controlled, such as when playing other teams of equal or greater strength. They don't hold the ball as long as they might have playing elsewhere and have to think about affecting play in one or two dribbles and be more opportunistic. This has pluses since they are forced to act much quicker and create under less than optimal circumstances, however they also lose a bit of the skill that they naturally carry since they're not on the ball quite as much and are less lethal in more open situations than their La Liga or Bundesliga counterparts. CR7 developed at Manchester at a time where this effect wasn't as acute as it is today and it might also be added that he left the league while he was still rather early in his career and thus didn't take on alot of the habits that more long-term additions have had to. I have other opinions but this is the gist of my argument as it stands regarding developing in the EPL vs Germany, Spain, Portugal, or elsewhere.

    So I am actively rooting for Hoffheim to hold down their Champions League spot and move for Iheanacho in the summer. His purchase or loan will almost ensure him of consistent games not only in league play but also in the Champions League and the style of the Bundesliga will enable him more opportunities to play with the ball at his feet more and develop his first touch and dribbling while he's still young enough to benefit from it.
     
  22. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Unfortunately, Iwobi's problem is the exact opposite to Iheanacho's. He's an astute dribbler and has the ideal touch but his finishing is atrocious (perhaps in his head at this stage) and he doesn't see the field as well as Iheanacho and thus his assist rate leaves alot to be desired. If you could combine Iheanacho and Iwobi into a single player they'd/he'd be unstoppable.
     
  23. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    I might have been wrong about this. He seems to have found a way to work his style into the EPL (alot of cash helped) and even Tottenham seems to be following suit to some extent...

    It isn't a purely Spanish style, but it is fun to watch. I'm beginning to think they'll be finalists in the CL along with PSG (who ESPNFC hates for some reason...) so I have to give credit to Pep. He's still one of the more inflexible coaches and requires complete roster overhauls to do his thing, which managers like Conte and Mourinho don't but, in the end, his creations might be stronger overall. Then again, Mourinho has proven able to win CL titles with little tinkering outside of a few players here and there and some shuffling of the existing lineups.
     
  24. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Listening to the youth...



     
  25. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think Nigeria is going to be a pretty tough draw for anyone. Best team in pot 4 IMO.
     
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