Has Nigeria finally turned the corner?

Discussion in 'Africa' started by Unak78, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #26 Unak78, Jun 24, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
    I heard about this. I'm a bit divided on this. Not because winning the Olympic Gold is important in the grand scheme of things. It's important to countries who've never won it before and Brazil only places emphasis on it this year for that reason and because it's in Brazil and might help to wash away the indignity of what happened on home soil in 2014. The only reason to want Iheanacho on that team is as a potential dress rehearsal for a future setup with the senior team in qualifiers and a potential WC in 2018.

    With that said, it is more important that he remain healthy going into his first offseason with Pep in charge at City. He cannot affort to miss any preseason games as Pep will undoubtedly buy another striker so it will be a challenge to maintain or improve his position in the selection. Being successful at City is perhaps even more important to the Nigerian national team as he will need to gain experience and confidence that he can bring to the National team in important games. The same goes for Iwobi but for him, since Arsenal rarely goes on spending sprees to offset players who show potential, his position is probably more assured than Iheanacho's. I'm actually happy with this, and City's reluctance to part with him for the Olympics is actually a good sign, showing that they see him as valuable enough to withhold from international competition. I'd be more upset if they didn't care if he came or went. This is also on the back-end of awarding him a new contract. He's got to earn that money now!

    ***

    On the coaching angle, early positive marks for Yusuf. Granted Mali and Luxembourg are hardly world-beaters, but these are games where Nigeria scored goals and it's not like Nigeria didn't struggle to score against these types of opponents just a few months ago. What is most positive is that, unlike Siasia or even Keshi (RIP), Yusuf is playing their most promising young players. Why it's taken so long for the Nigerian National team to succumb and give minutes to Iheanacho and Iwobi, I can't answer. If Nigeria had been an offensive powerhouse over the last decade with prolific strikers racking up goals and playing beautiful attacking football I would understand the need for them to fight their way into the squad but this was not happening and stalling their progress served noone but an imaginary sense of preeminence for strikers with "seniority" that had proven little up til now. Put the team in the hands of the players with the most upside so that they're firmly entrenched by the time qualifiers begin. Nigeria has the talent to qualify out of CAF and can potentially beat anyone but they have to build the team up to that and it starts with the youngsters who are potentially their best attacking options.
     
  2. Sportlad

    Sportlad Member

    Jul 12, 2016
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nigeria do look to have a positive future, with the players at their disposal. It's certainly about time an African team made the step up at senior level - I read an interesting article recently about the contrast in performance between African youth teams and the senior team. Let me find it...ahh! Here it is - http://www.thestatszone.com/article...replicate-their-youth-results-at-senior-level

    It certainly a big difference. Hopefully over the next few years we'll start to see more success from the African Nations at the World Cup.
     
  3. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The stark difference will be that we have bonafide youth players now. Plus countries like Nigeria actually have a functioning youth development system.

    The problem remains that players have primarily three routes:
    a) luck out and get a chance to develop in Europe in a proper club;
    b) get the first best contract in Europe, but with poor development facilities and with the risk of being a low-cost sub player;
    c) stay in the local league and thus never being able to realise the full potential due to lacking development programmes for over 18 players.

    Nigeria has really seemed to hit it big this time with an entire generation of players in route a). Moses Simon, Chidozie Awaziem, Sadiq Umar, Kelechi Iheanacho, Alex Iwobi, Wilfried Ndidi, Nura Abdullahi, Ahmed Musa already making the waves and featuring for the first team of their clubs, while loads of other youth players have been picked up by strong European teams (i.e. FC Porto, Arsenal, Liverpool, Stuttgart). I do not remember a time when so many 18-20 year olds of an African country were hot items all at once.

    Also interesting to note the Portuguese connection for Nigerian players.
     
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  4. HomokHarcos

    HomokHarcos Member+

    Jul 2, 2014
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really think out of all the African countriesthat Nigeria has the most potential to become a football powerhouse.
     
  5. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
  6. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Seems like the group forced their hand and they were scared of picking a local coach. Yusuf looked good in his few games, but it was a leap of faith. As for Le Guen... not sure what to think of this after the Cameroon fail...
     
  7. Robertoe

    Robertoe Member

    Jun 30, 2016
    Club:
    Everton FC
    I certainly agree with C and how that stunts development, but I still would have expected those have gone to A or B to have developed better than they have. My fear is mentality being a major factor and sometimes a lack of ambition. Just getting the move to France does not mean they have reached the pinnacle, and for me, too often players ease off the gas then.

    Thanks for sharing that article - interesting stats in there Sportlad
     
  8. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The article has one flaw however. Jugding Ghanaian and Nigerian players based on the French league isn't representative. They are no strong ties between Ghana and Nigeria in France, hence why they don't feature there often. France (and Belgium) was always a training ground for players from francophonic Africa.

    Ghana has strong ties (for some reason) with Italy, Nigeria is much more of a globetrotter, although they seem to be getting strong in the Portuguese league.
     
  9. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Considering that Cameroon didn't even qualify for the previous tournament and subsequently performed even worse in Brazil after his tenure, I don't exactly hold that against him. They've played well in the AfCoN but have failed miserably at the full international stage for much of the past decade. That's not all on Le Guen.

    But I agree on the group draw playing a big part in my thinking in particular. This is not the time to experiment, a known quantity is needed and I know that Le Guen can manage at a high level of football. So far only Stephen Keshi (RIP) has proven capable and that with a very conservative approach (practical the lack of attacking depth that he had).

    Nigerians seem to want to put the cart ahead of the horse where coaching is concerned. Other nations, even some US fans, do this, but not to the degree that it became part of the debate at the federation level. That should never happen. Their job should be finding the best coach possible, nationality not-withstanding. Some fans latched onto the narrative that no nation has won the WC with a foreign coach, which is only a good argument for those particular nations. Those countries are some of the pioneers of Intl football with almost a century of intl play behind them. For them thw benefit of domestic coaching is the existence of a stylistic setup and choice of tactics; Jogo Bonito, Catenaccio, Total Football, Tika Taka...etc. Nigerua doesn't necessarily get such a benefit from going local since local coaches just end up recycling mostly Northern European tactical setups. They don't bring anything revolutionary or intrinsically "Nigerian" or "African" to the table. Without that, the entire benefit of going local versus all other options, to me, is moot.

    And that bring me to my biggest problem with this debate. It takes the pressure off Nigerian coaches to push thier exposure, education in the game to the furthest levels. With Nigerua, coach a U-17 or U-20 team and suddenly you're the next Parreira or Scolari. What I liked about Oliseh is that, despite his lack of Nigerian-system experience, he globe-trotted to get certifications and exposure. But most Nigerian coaches are contend to sit in the Nigerian system (which only now seems to be revamping and enforcing it's liscensing process) and expect to be handed the job based on tenure. (An attitude that informs some of their ideas on player selection, sadly. Even Keshi had his favorites. Now even Mikel will have to fight for their place on the squad.) Nigerian coaching should be a goal that comes as a result of careful planning, vetting, and grooming of younger, talented minds.

    With that said, there is something to be said for what Siasia said about the lack of opportunities for African coaches in Europe. I was about to say that City seems to be grooming Patrick Vieira, but he's French, not African. But that still doesn't keep Nigeria from pushing for more club partnerships with the top leagues to gain more training for our club coaches, influencing (or paying) top clubs to take our most promising young liscensed coaches as assistants. I don't know much about Yusuf, but I've heard it said that he did do some globetrotting for experience in his formulative coaching years. Thia should be the norm.
     
  10. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    When I saw the news yesterday of Le Guen becoming the next coach, I thought to myself "old habits die hard. How does this guy still have a market in Africa?" Then I saw this morning that Nigeria got bailed out and the deal fell through. Surely there has to be a fresh mind out there that knows how African football works. Retreads that have bounced around several times within the past few years hardly ever work out.
     
  11. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    When was the last time Le Guen demonstrated he's capable of coaching at a high level? He hasn't done jack since he took over a Lyon squad that was set for success.
     
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  12. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The problem is one of time. Basically its down to one man: Yusug Salisu, who has only coached club football in his career.
     
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  13. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36842694

    Yusuf back in as coach. Le Guen turned down the job due to not wanting to live in Nigeria. Now they're searching for a technical advisor. This is horrible that they didn't have that detail lined up before making the coaching announcement.
     
  14. Jcc21

    Jcc21 Member

    Feb 3, 2015
    Toronto
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
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  15. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does anybody know how an MRI tests your age?
     
  16. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Not really worrisome given this happens every 2 years. The NFF does wide screenings, selects the best and then puts them through MRI testing. 1/3 fails every time (well... at least since 2013).

    Actually the message is exactly the opposite to what the articles are pointing to: Nigeria is cleaning up its act. Its not like the U17 team that won the World Cup in 2015 was screened and it turned out they were a bunch of cheats...
     
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  17. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    Most importantly some of their brightest prospects like Iheanacho, Nwakali, Success have all been through that staged without issue. Plus Alex Iwobi who played at that stage with England.

    Look, when Nigeria was ranked 5 in the World back in the 90s beating teams like Spain, Greece, a very strong Bulgaria team amd coming within minutes of beating the eventual finalists Italy, this was still considered an issue, but it jardly hindered their ability to farm out some World-class talent, so it's a huge cop-out to try to assume that this is an issue for them now. And overall their record at WCs has been good when the team is coached well.

    So the underage competitions are a zero factor. Players are able to be developed who can perform at the senior level. What is a problem is the type of player that have been developed by most West African nations over the past decade and a half. There was a time when AfCoN featured spirited attacking football, but at some point, when European clubs stopped buying creative attackers, African nations stopped trying to develop them. They also fell into a mindset that, as they may have leaned too much into the attack in the 90s, they had to overload with d-mids and defenders making thier teams overly defensive, extremely physical and reliant on direct play. There are real football reasons for Nigerias struggles. That isn't even on the radar.
     
  18. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #43 Unak78, Aug 5, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
    From what I learned in Anatomy and Physiology, it involves measuring the size of the growth plates in the long bones of the body. You see, during the growth stage of life, each of your long bones only actually grow in these two regions (at the edge before the round part on each side) because, rather than fully-ossified bone, these areas are still populated by the type of blast cells that pretty much was once all you were made up of. Once these blast cells die out, the growth plates ossify (harden) and all that's left of the growth plate is a line marking where it once was.

    So, like a CT, an MRI (there are also PET scanners which use positrons -ie antimatter- which is both scary as fvck, and awesome at the same time) which is a giant and powerful scanning device. However, since it scans magnetically rather than with x-rays it can give a much more detailed picture, doing things like highlighting the location of abnormal tissue (like cancer abnormal), or... differentiating between different types of tissue such as growth plate tissue inhabited by blast cells and the fully ossified remainder of the long-bone. If these exist, it's most likely that you're under 20 years old however, scientifically they can close anywhere from as young as 15. It all depends on your genetics. The only certainty is that, if you can remember when your final growth spurt ended, then that's when your plates were closed. The range of when they close is why this test is only practical for the U-17s.

    And one or two true 17 yr olds have probably failed. I remember reading about a either an English or American player, born and raised with proper documents and everything. But his plates had probably closed early, so he couldn't play. And they know that there is some margin for error baked into the test in line with the statistical variation which is a given within humans (or any other given species). But it's really the only possible means available to science at this time. As more research goes into age research and the role that our DNA plays in it (and it gets cheaper) I suppose we might one day be able to determine age by telomere length or presence/lack of sirtuans etc., but there's variation in all of that too. And, like the closing of our growth plates, telomere deterioration can be sped up by diet, environment, etc...

    E2A: I had to fact check myself a bit there... okay when I said that the growth plates where inhabited by blast cells, I wasn't exactly wrong or right. Four different types of cells for each tissue, genic, blasts, cytes, and clasts. Genic are embryonic and give rise to blasts. Blasts form cytes and cytes are mature cells capable of division. For example, the type of cancerous white blood cells that cause leukemia are blast cells. So what actually inhabits the growth plates are osteoblasts and chondrocytes (mature cartilage). One growth is finished, the osteoblasts kick in and replace the cartilage (chondrocytes) with osteocytes. So that's a bit of a correction.
     
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  19. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Unfair to that American Player that was to play for Nigeria. but you can't start making exceptions.
     
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  20. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #45 Unak78, Aug 5, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
    http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/24282432
    Yeah, I remember reading about it too. It sucks but, if he was good enough, he'll end up where he should be anyways. It's far, far more accurate, and based on better science than a polygraph; which, for some reason our country allows for use of testing for certain government jobs.

    It's not perfect, but I actually like it. And it's the best thing available. It's more a deterrent than anything and, if you can really play, you'll always get your chance at the senior level. Plus, with the testing there, the issue of cheating can be minimized. Even if more Nigerians get hit for it.

    But primarily, I actually think that Nigerians care far too much about winning the underage competitions. Look at the hoopla over Iheanacho and Iwobi being held from the Olympics. Most established, and even middling Euro and SA sides (except for hosting and mea culpa owing Brazil) barely even care about it other than as an final vetting ground for the senior team. So Nigerian coaches put more emphasis on playing to win where an Argentina, while also wanting to win, is focusing on implementing tactics and vetting players for the next level as well. I don't imagine that if we focused more on vetting tactics at each level, our senior sides would look more cohesive at competitions under almost any coach with a similar approach than like a bunch of millionaires who went to a park pitch for a pick-up match.
     
  21. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  22. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #47 Unak78, Aug 14, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
    So it will be Gernot Rohr of Germany who will be Nigeria's new technical advisor and will live in Nigeria for at least the next few months. It's unclear whether or not he will also be on the field carrying the coaching duties, but the specifics of his contract state that he is currently hired through qualifiers with the specific goal of getting them to the World Cup with incentives for a longer stint should he succeed. Not much known about him but he is clearly their 2nd or 3rd option at this point. Still German football seems a decent fit for where West African player development is at this point. Bottom line, Nigeria needs to be creative and unleash their young attackers while maintaining the defensive organization that they've shown in recent years. Granted alot of that defense has been the result of playing a more counterattacking style and they need to now show that they can do it while moving forward and controlling possession more than they've done in recent years.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-3731543/Nigeria-German-Rohr-technical-adviser.html
    https://www.naij.com/922086-5-things-need-know-new-super-eagles-coach-gernot-rohr.html

    The good; he's managed in France which was once a hotbed for African creative attacking talent. That center of gravity has moved more to the Premier League in England now. And he has also worked with the German FA on youth development.

    The bad; he's managed in Africa before as the coach of the continental giants Etoile du Sahel and was infamous for failing to make the CAF Champions League. He also has a mixed African international career as he managed Gabon to the AfCon Quarterfinals but also failed to get Niger past the group-stages. Granted Niger has never been a West African power in football. I don't know their overall qualifying record, but considering that Nigeria has struggled to make the tournament in recent years, then the fact that Niger was there may actually be a plus.

    It seems that he'll be advising on technical matters while Yusuf will remain coach so there will be some coordination between the two with Rohr living in Nigeria to oversee player development, squad selection, and advise on tactics. It all depends on whatever the difference between a technical director and a technical advisor is. I've never rally heard of the latter being used before. Technical directors are very directly involved in football matters whereas technical advisor gives me the impression that his input is strictly optional. None the less it adds an element to the qualification effort that will be interesting to watch going forward.

    Not much time now to prepare for qualifiers and the first match in Zambia will be an important one to gauge how much of a shot Nigeria has to turn around their recent performances. A win or even a draw there would be a huge result and set them in good position going forward as any away points immediately puts the pressure on Algeria to match them point for point. It's also possible that Zambia may actually be the third best team in the group with Cameroon rebuilding after having relied on older talent for many years. Getting off on the right foot with a big away result will be immensely important.

    Another big thing to watch will be any potential rule violations which could lead to forfeited matches skewing the results for one team or another in the group and thus potentially leading to an undeserving qualifier. This will be extremely important to watch for among the bottom two teams in the group at the latter stages of qualification as these teams will likely carry the bulk of suspensions and be under pressure to field higher quality lineups in the must-win matches at home against the better teams. One forfeited home match could spell the difference between qualifying and staying home for one of the two better teams. One hopes that CAF's dismal record in monitoring the ongoing card situation is rectified. I wish CAF would actually just replay these matches, but it is what it currently is. Compromising the competitive aspect of qualifiers is something that CAF seems to revel in.

    One positive thing to take from Nigeria's last two friendlies is that Iheanacho has found the net in each of their last two matches. A positive preseason and start to the premiership with Guardiola could prove important to Nigeria's hopes in qualifiers. The same goes for Nigeria's other young players. Iwobi looks good with Arsenal so far. I wonder how much better it would have been for Iheanacho to have signed with Arsenal and been playing full-time with his good friend Iwobi. He'd likely have a more certain role with that team and would get to dress-rehearse and link up with Iwobi on a more consistent basis setting up a template for Nigeria to use. Oh well...

    Speaking of Iwobi, I'm hoping that his injury situation is more day-to-day than long-term as it will be seriously problematic for Nigeria if he can't go by October. Still October is pretty far-off so only a serious injury would keep him out. And then Nigeria has to find an effective way to use him when the time comes. Here's hoping that he's up and fit for Zambia.
     
  23. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #48 Unak78, Aug 20, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
    Gernot Rohr's first Nigeria squad includes Mikel, Iheanacho, Musa

    http://www.espnfc.com/nigeria/story...t-nigeria-squad-includes-mikel-iheanacho-musa

    Okay, it's been almost impossible to figure out whether or not Rohr is the coach or merely the technical director. So now, apparently, he is the coach as mentioned in this article. So I'm sitting back and waiting for the Tanzania match. Smart to use this as an additional friendly even though both teams are already eliminated. Plus, with Tanzania having nothing to play for, a big win can instill the players with much needed confidence ahead of the start of WC qualifiers. A bonus is that, being located in a similar region to Zambia (they're neighbors), it can serve as a dress rehearsal for a game that Nigeria must get a result from in order to put pressure on Algeria ahead of their first meeting. His choice to not call up Alex Iwobi is surprising. There may be a bit of Arsenal influence there though, this game is essentially a friendly.
     
  24. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    #49 Unak78, Aug 20, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016

    Unfortunately I can't embed this with the starting point that I selected. This site simply doesn't recognize the code, even though Youtube does. So I'll just post the link here www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhmaRQx33gY&t=2m28s. Or you can just start the above video at 2:28.

    Biggest sign of progression out of Iheanacho I've seen since climbing to the senior team. One of the only flaws that I've noticed on him that seemed lost since his days on the EDS squad and Nigeria youth team is that he seemed much less confident and in control with the ball at his feet. He was an above average dribbler a level down and suddenly lost all confidence and rarely tried to make moves directly against defenders with the ball in order to create. His saving grace is that his finishing and his passing ability never lost a step. I can see Guardiola's fingerprints on this sequence. He likes players who can create on their own and he might be pressuring Iheanacho to re-establish this part of his game if he wants a chance to make the starting 11 on a semi-regular basis. His goals have been nice (some have shown amazing skill) but this sequence might be the best thing that I've seen out of him since joining City's senior team. It wasn't perfect (he still got bogged down by his defender) but he still managed to create an opportunity. If he continues to push this aspect of his game, figuring out what works for him and what doesn't, he can become a more effective player and useful in Guardiola's system.
     
  25. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Iwobi is injured. Rohr said he won't call up injured players. He needs to be sure of their form.

    Side note: Onazi scores a double in his debut at a new club.
     
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