Has Neymar jr surpassed Luis figo

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Oct 2, 2018.

?

Has Neymar equalled or surpassed Luis figo

  1. Yes

    21 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. No

    21 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Based on?
     
  2. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
  3. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018








     
  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar as starter:

    [​IMG]

    Neymar x Mbappe

    Neymar at PSG: 54 M, 45 W, 4 D, 5 L, 184 GF, 47 GA = 85,8% Points, 2.53 Goal Difference per match.
    Mbappe at PSG: 84 M, 63W, 10 D, 11 L, 237 GF, 76 GA = 79% Points, 1.92 Goal Difference per match.

    https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2018/may/using-big-data-to-analyze-soccer/

    https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.04987.pdf

    http://business-analytic.co.uk/blog/valuing-passes-and-thoughts-on-metrification/

    Neymar
    Team Results +8%
    http://www.football-observatory.com/-profile-42987-_none

    Mbappe
    Team Results +4%
    http://www.football-observatory.com/-profile-123187-_none



    Maybe that 2018-2019 was his worst season in Europe tho, I think his carrer is
    is already going to the end tho, each match he seems to be slower and fragile. I don't think he'll ever /have the energy of his first season at PSG.
     
  5. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar 2016/2017 - Dynamic Playmaker (Underrated)

     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar 2019 Overall

     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #182 carlito86, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019

    He could probably start a new career in boxing(in the flyweight division)

    His stance is a bit unorthodox,guerilla style (hit and run lol)
     
  8. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar = 352 Goals (~300 Non-Penalty Goals), 196 Assists.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    European stats or including Sao Paulo state leagues?
     
  10. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    European Competition and NT Stats: 216 Goals and 130 Assists in 340 Matches
    1.02 G+A/Match

    At Santos: 138 Goals and 65 Assists in 225 Matches
    0.91 G+A/Match

    All 138 Goals at Santos


    All 105 Goals at Barcelona


    50 Goals at PSG


    59 Goals with Brazil



    :thumbsup:
     
  11. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    PD: Transfermarkt

    https://www.transfermarkt.pt/neymar/leistungsdatenverein/spieler/68290
    https://www.transfermarkt.pt/neymar/nationalmannschaft/spieler/68290

    286 Goals (240 Non-Penalty Goals) + 180 Assists in 474 Matches (38882 minutes)
    1 Assist or Non-Penalty Goal each 92.57 minutes.

    That doesn't include the Paulista State League.


    Paulista State League: 53 Goals and 26 Assists in 76 Matches.

    Neither Copa do Brasil

    Copa do Brasil: 13 Goals and 7 Assists in 15 Matches.

    So that doesn't include: 66 Profesional Goals and 33 Assists.


    So he has 352 Goals and 213 Assists (OPTA stats) in 565 Matches.
     
  12. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar (2017- ) 2018 and (2018- ) 2019

    PSG and Brazil: 59 Goals (45 Non-PK Goals) + 39 Assists in 6591 Minutes (77 Matches). One Non-PK Goal or assist each 78.5 Minutes.

    At PSG 51 Goals (41 Non-PK Goals) + 29 Assists in 58 Matches (5048 Minutes)
    PSG Team Goals: 191 Direct Involvement: 41,9%, w/o including PK 36,6%.


    Neymar as a starter whoscored rating (UCL and Ligue 1): 8.71 (49 Matches)

    Overall Neymar is having a great performance in PSG, the problem is that he has always been injured .. but with him the PSG plays much better.
    I've him as the second best player nowadays, with Hazard as the third and Cristiano and Mbappe fighting for the 4º place. Messi is still the best player.

    Until few time ago:

    Neymar x Mbappe

    Neymar at PSG: 54 M, 45 W, 4 D, 5 L, 184 GF, 47 GA = 85,8% Points, 2.53 Goal Difference per match.
    Mbappe at PSG: 84 M, 63W, 10 D, 11 L, 237 GF, 76 GA = 79% Points, 1.92 Goal Difference per match.

    Neymar en el Barcelona
    186 M (74,73%), 139 W, 21 D, 26 L 78.49%
    500 GF (2,688) 151 GA 1,876 GOAL DIFFERENCE

    Barcelona (2017-2018, 2018-2019)
    113 M, 79 W (69,91%), 25 D, 9 L 77.22%
    271 GF (2,398), 88 GA, 1.619 GOAL DIFFERENCE.
    Even with Coutinho and Dembele.

    And Messi never worked so hard like in the last two seasons.
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...nt-than-ever-and-barcelona-is-more-dependent/

    Post 6521
    https://leforum.culturepsg.com/index.php?showtopic=7171&st=6520

    https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/3tn2xb/neymar_and_suarez_stats_with_and_without_messi/
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Hazard is almost 29 years old and hasn't scored or assisted 1 goal in the QF to final rounds of the CL
    Neymar hasn't done so since 2015

    IT was only last year ronaldo scored 15 goals in a single edition of the Champions League
    There is no player at this stage outside of messi who can comfortably be placed ahead of ronaldo (even at 34 years old he is still world class and a undisputed top 10 player in the world)


    Until neymar and hazard learn how to perform in big games (and neymar hasn't completed a full season in 2 years cmon Tropeiro be serious dude)
    Mbappe has just scored at a superior rate to prime edison cavani and almost at the rate of prime ibrahimovic
    He is 20 years old

    You and others are for some reason criminally underrating mbappe just because he doesn't fit your subjective criteria of what constitutes as a great classical player(with silky skills and weight of pass)
    If you remember how devastating Henry was in his heyday mbappe is primed to be even more devastating
    Mbappe at 22-26 years old (barring injuries) is a 40 goal+15 assist player
    Remember I said it ;)
     
  14. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #189 Tropeiro, May 27, 2019
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
    Well, he almost eliminated Liverpool in his CL group (Liverpool is ranked as the best club in the world accoding Elo methodology and is a 97 point team in the strongest league in the World, the EPL)
    https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...eague-2018-2019-Paris-Saint-Germain-Liverpool

    He was the MOTM against Napoli as well:
    https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...s-League-2018-2019-Napoli-Paris-Saint-Germain

    These are big games and yes he has many big games for PSG, Brazil and Barcelona now (against many TOP10 ranked teams and NTs)... just like Hazard has as well. I would put both over Ronaldo nowadays. Post 232, 242 and 246 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-players-of-18-19-season.2102576/page-10

    Btw, I'm hoping for Hazard in Madrid to see if he will increase his performance or not like Cristiano did, too bad that he is already 28 (and not 24-26) at end of his peak.

    Mbappe is already at Ibra's peak (-or at least PSG) level, probably even better since 15-16 Ibra is a outlier in his PSG carrer. But he isn't delivering good performances in the most important matches, as for example against Liverpool, Napoli, Manchester United and in the final of the French Cup, for example. Also his record is not as good as Neymars record, still. So I would place him below Neymar at the moment. Let's see next season.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Big games for a team ranked top 10 in the world are

    Champions League
    Quarter finals
    Semi finals
    Finals

    Cup (copa del rey, French cup, fa cup etc)
    Finals only
    ( at the SF stage and below super teams seldomly face challenges)

    What was hazard and neymars record in those matches
    (Groupstage performance shouldn't count here unless we are using a different measuring stick for CR)

    The difference between ronaldo and hazard/neymar is like rafa Nadal vs Murray/stan wawrinka
    In some years they are seeded higher for performing better at some tournaments
    In overall class/form they are still not definitely better (not even a 34 year old ronaldo)

    Mbappes output is at or close to the level of prime ibrahimovic
    Technically he is not there and frankly may never be
    Id say mbappe right now is of the same level as neymar 14/15 who was 22-23 years old (with mbappe being better in the league but worse than neymar in the Champions League-both played with a similar team edge of 160-180 team goals)

    I agree though neymars highest level is above mbappe(especially in playmaking not scoring necessarily)
    Thing is neymar hasn't been at that level since his injury in early 2018
    So in form mbappe is better than hazard and neymar even though in "class' he is worse (than neymar not hazard who never had a season as highly rated as mbappe and you can't even dispute this
    Take your pick from Dbs calcio,whoscored,opta etc
     
  16. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #191 Tropeiro, May 27, 2019
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
    Its OK to measure finals and the CL KO stages, but IMO all matches vs team ranked as TOP10 or even TOP20 in the ELO Ranking is a BIG Game, in terms of both teams being competitive. Btw if it wasn't Neymar, PSG was out in the Group Stage. No mistake here, Pool vs PSG and Napoli vs PSG were BIG Games. Point is that he plays less big games in France than playing for Barcelona or Juventus (in the Ronaldo class) or in the PL (like Hazard).

    Btw, don't compare Neymar and Hazard with Mbappe they are a different type of players it is like compare Maradona with Van Basten or Messi with 15-19 Ronaldo with the exception that Mbappe is not delivering good performances against TOP10-20 teams of Europe and seems to be better playing with Neymar behind him than w/o Neymar.

    Hazard for example is better than Mbappe at dribbling, passing, progressing the ball to the final meters, to carry his team etc.. the same apply to Neymar, except that Neymar has still more xG Build Up and Goals/Assists to his name.
    Mbappe has more athleticism and make more goals.

    [​IMG]

    Cristiano Ronaldo is still World Class (TOP4 imo), but Juventus didn't really improved with him compared with the last season.

    My TOP5 nowadays: 1: Messi 2: Neymar 3: Hazard 4: Cristiano 5: Mbappe
     
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You miss the point
    You are comparing form with class
    Even when I consider mbappe greater than cristiano Ronaldo this season it is based on form (2nd behind messi in golden boot race this season-32 league goals with 1 penalty at 20 years old)
    He is the best young striker since R9 and/or Jimmy greaves

    In form
    neymar has no place being near a top 5 list this season(even according to your own graph)
    "In class" neymar is a top 5 player in the world for his level between 15-18

    In form+class ronaldo is a top 5 player in the world (based on this seasons exploits and what he's done since 2007)

    What is hazards record in European competitions+top 6 PL teams this season?
    he has played further afield alot particularly in the first half as a false 9 with mixed performances
    He is inconsistent too (his record throughout a season deserves more scrutiny if you are ranking him so high as a top 3 player in all of Europe)
     
  18. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #193 Tropeiro, May 27, 2019
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
    He probably is, point is that he isn't included because of his insufficent number of minutes.

    Btw, my point is that in BIG Games he was better than Mbappe. In their NTs too. Neymar was better for Brazil than Mbappe for France (friendlies vs Nation Leagues), here even more clearly. Mbappe had some better matches than Neymar in the French League tho, even if Neymar couldn't care less in some matches.

    PD: Even in the PSG Forum they had Neymar over Mbappe for now and it is french based forum, it is not class, but form as well.

    We'll see next year, if Neymar stays in shape, without getting injured, and if Mbappe comes even better ... and especially if PSG is reinforced, because today is a unbalanced and mediocre team.
     
  19. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
  20. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Against the TOP16.

    ===> 2013-2014


    vs M. City (8º) Home, 0 Goals, Rating: 7.30, Barcelona Rating: 7.42
    vs Atletico (12º) Home, 1 Goal , Rating: 8.51, Barcelona Rating: 7.16
    vs Atletico (12º) Away, 0 Goals, Rating: 6.68, Barcelona Rating: 6.65
    vs Valencia (16º) Away, 1 Assist,Rating: 7.56, Barcelona Rating: 7.31
    vs Madrid (3º) Home, 1 Goal, 1 Assist, Rating: 8.24 Barcelona Rating: 6.81
    vs Madrid (3º) Away, 0 Goals, Rating: 7.31, Barcelona Rating: 7.18*
    *2 Assist (1PK caused) for Transfermarkt;

    Total: 6 Marches, 2 Goals and 2 Assist, Average Rating: 7.6, Barcelona Rating: 7.09
    For Transfermarkt, 6 Matches, 2 Goals and 4 Assist.



    ===> 2014-2015

    vs PSG (12º) Away, 1 Goal , Rating: 7.30, Barcelona Rating: 6.74
    vs PSG (12º) Home, 1 Goal , Rating: 7.81, Barcelona Rating: 7.11
    vs M. City (5º) Away, 0 Goal , Rating: 7.05, Barcelona Rating: 7.16
    vs M. City (5º) Home, 0 Goal , Rating: 7.99, Barcelona Rating: 7.48
    vs PSG (12º) Away, 1 Goal , Rating: 8.07, Barcelona Rating: 7.23
    vs PSG (12º) Home, 2 Goals, Rating: 9.59, Barcelona Rating: 7.38
    vs Bayern (2º) Home, 1 Goal , Rating: 8.54, Barcelona Rating: 7.51
    vs Bayern (2º) Away, 2 Goals, Rating: 8.34, Barcelona Rating: 6.80
    vs Juventus (9º) 1 Goal, Rating: 8.06, Barcelona Rating: 7.12
    vs Bilbao (15º) 2 Goals as Sub
    vs Madrid (1º) Away, 1 Goal , Rating: 7.67, Barcelona Rating: 6.45
    vs Sevilla (14º) Home, 1 Goal, 2 Assist, Rating: 9.33 Barcelona Rating: 7.40
    vs Atletico (4º) Home, 1 Goal , Rating: 8.49, Barcelona Rating: 7.34
    vs Bilbao (15º) Away, 1 Goal , Rating: 9.26, Barcelona Rating: 7.57
    vs Madrid (1º) Home, 0 Goals, Rating: 8.19, Barcelona Rating: 7.20
    vs Sevilla (14º) Away, 1 Goal, 1 Assist, Rating: 9.52, Barcelona Rating: 6.81
    vs Atletico (4º) Away, 0 Goals, Rating: 7.17, Barcelona Rating: 7.12

    Total: 17 Matches, 16 Goals, 3 Assists, Average Rating: 8.28 Barcelona Rating: 7.15


    ===> 2015-2016

    vs Leverkusen (15º)Home, 0 Goals, Rating: 7.39, Barcelona Rating: 6.94
    vs Arsenal (11º) Away, 1 Assist,Rating: 8.39, Barcelona Rating: 7.55
    vs Arsenal (11º) Home, 1 Goal , Rating: 9.45, Barcelona Rating: 7.37**
    vs Atletico (4º) Home, 0 Goals, Rating: 7.80, Barcelona Rating: 7.11
    vs Atletico (4º) Away, 0 Goals, Rating: 6.77, Barcelona Rating: 6.49
    vs Atletico (4º) Away, 1 Goal , Rating: 8.20, Barcelona Rating: 7.06
    vs Sevilla (6º) Away, 1 Goal(PK), Rating: 9.09, Barcelona Rating: 6.73
    vs Madrid (2º) Away, 1 Goal, 1 Asist, Rating: 9.70 Barcelona Rating: 7.65
    vs Valencia (8º) Away, 0 Goals, Rating: 8.16, Barcelona Rating: 6.94
    vs Atletico (4º) Home, 0 Goals, Rating: 7.11, Barcelona Rating: 7.13
    vs Sevilla (6º) Home, 0 Goals, Rating: 7.51, Barcelona Rating: 6.85
    vs Madrid (2º) Home, 0 Goals, Rating: 6.48, Barcelona Rating: 6.64
    vs Valencia (8º) Away, 0 Goals, Rating: 6.60, Barcelona Rating: 6.93
    ** + 1 Assist for Transfermarkt

    Total: 13 Matches, 4 Goals(1PK), 2 Assists, Average Rating: 7.90 Barcelona Rating: 7.03
    For Transfermarkt, 13 Matches, 4 Goals, 3 Assists.



    36 Matches, 22 Goals (21 NPK Goals), 7 Assists
    10 Assists according Transfermarkt.
     
  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    im not questioning the accuracy of your data but I have to ask
    Why top 16 Eloclub teams and not top 15 as you did with CR on the other thread

    Im going to pretend that there is no Brazil bias/free pass here
    In any case it's great work and would like to see seasons of suarez 13/14 and 15/16
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This was yet another great domestic campaign by hazard
    By my count that is 4
    2014/15
    2016/17
    2017/18
    2018/19

    if we're being generous we could also throw in 2013/14
    Lead in dribbles and chances created and was voted PFA young player of the season
    2015/16 detracts from his greatness if we are comparing to others who had multiple world class seasons

    Still though you cannot convince me here (about 21 year old CR vs 28 year old hazard)
    Until you can find me a winger who is the best dribbler and most technically gifted player in the world
    One of the best headers in the world
    One of the best crossers in the world
    One of the best FK takers in the world
    Than I can begin to even entertain the comparison

    Until then it doesn't make any sense at all to me
    Then after this stats come into the equation
    Hazard scored 1 open play goal in the europa league
    Ronaldo scored 3 goals+ 5 assists and a similar number of pre assists in the Champions League
    Like I said this isn't a serious comparison
    You are comparing apples with oranges

    Hazard played also played a large portion of this season as the furthest outfield player (striker or false 9)
    Manchester United in 2006/07 played with 2 traditional wingers ronaldo and giggs and 4 strikers on rotation
    Wayne Rooney
    Louis saha
    ole gunnar solskjaer
    HenrIk laarson

    Ronaldo assisted all these strikers
    Assisted Ryan giggs
    Assisted Micheal Carrick
    Assisted Scholes
    And still finished as his teams top scorer


    There is a reason I rate this as even better than some of his high scoring seasons in Madrid
    His goalscoring output from the position he played, his playmaking, his machine like consistency
    The fact that at 21 years old he was considered the best player of his league ahead of prime Didier Drogba, prime Terry, prime Gerrard, prime Lampard, prime alonso,cesc fabregas etc
    The fact that no one even disputed this(he was here the overwhelming winner)
    And to top it off won his domestic league
     
  23. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Just take Neymar impact in PSG as a example:

    Neymar en Ligue 1 en 2017 2018
    20 Partidos, 69 Goles (Promedio 3,45)
    PSG sin Neymar en Ligue 1 2017 2018
    18 Partidos, 39 Goles (Promedio 2,17)

    Neymar en Ligue 1 en 2018 2019
    17 Partidos 55 Goles (Promedio 3,23)
    PSG sin Neymar en Ligue 1 2018 2019
    21 Partidos 50 Goles (Promedio 2,38)

    That's the average Goal For of PSG in all Ligue 1 history: https://www.thefinalball.com/team_season.php?comp_id=13&epoca_id=0&ond=&id=127&o=

    2017/2018
    L'Equipe

    https://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Act...-la-saison-selon-les-notes-de-l-equipe/903415
    Neymar 6.9 (rated as 1º), Luiz Gustavo rated as 2º, 6.06.
    France Football
    https://www.francefootball.fr/ligue-1/etoiles/2017-2018/
    Neymar 6.35 (rated as 1º), Cavani rated as 2º, 6.25.

    2018/2019
    L'Equipe

    https://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Act...force-dans-l-equipe-type-de-la-saison/1022832
    Neymar 6.59 (rated as 1º), Mbappe rated as 2º, 6.41
    France Football
    https://www.francefootball.fr/ligue-1/etoiles/2018-2019/
    Neymar 6.67 (rated as 1º), Mbappe rated as 2º, 6.33

    :thumbsup:
     
  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #200 carlito86, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019

    What beautiful technique
    Mesmerising stuff
     

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