Handling Question

I think that the key here is "moves his/her hand". If they go into a tackle, or are part of a wall, and their hands are already covering their junk, that's a natural position.

But, if the player has his/her hands down, and moves them up, that's a deliberate action. It's not a natural position, because they were moved there. Creates a lot of grey area as well, if it's allowed in the rules.

In practice, though, I'm not going to penalize someone for protecting their parts...

 

I work with a guy who calls everything like this a handball at every level. I'm talking U10 kiddos covering his face. "It's still a handball", I disagree, unless it drops to their feet and they take off with it.

I'm curious as to how other people call it. Obviously, age group/skill level determine much of it.

 

I'd look at it like this: was the player able to make a decision or was it instinctive self protection? If the player had time/awareness to make a different decision (e.g., to duck out of the way), then it is handling. If a player charges at the ball with arms up to block it, then that is deliberate--the player made the deliberate act of putting arms up to gain an advantage by having them in the way while charging in, which is completely different than still arms covering the crotch in a wall. If it was the reptilian brain in fight or flight mode, then it is a big fat nothing.

And its a big fat nothing even if the ball fortuitously lands at the player's feet. While the alacrity with which the player recovers may be a clue as to to whether it was deliberate, a fortunate bounce does not convert a non-deliberate act into a deliberate one.

 

That's exactly how I call it, although I couldn't have said it so well. USSF or HS, I call it the same. For better or worse.

Where did we come out last time on falling on the ball? I had one the other day where the player lost his footing, went down, instinctively put out his hands to break his fall, and one came down right on the ball. Coach, "Handball ref!" "Not deliberate, keep going." "That was definitely deliberate!"

 

On a fall, I think the key is to watch what happens with the arm ball after the initial contact. As long as its "hot potato" and the arm gets away, it's hard to see as deliberate. But the scoop or push of the ball would be.

 

Since we are talking about NFHS I lean towards if they have time to move their hand to protect themselves, they have time to just get out of the way. So a player moving (instinct or not) their hand to protect after a ball has been kicked would be guilty of handling. If the hand was there before, not deliberate and and not in a unnatural position (i.e holding jewels in a wall). In a Ulittle game I am a bit more lax, but I have a hard enough time convincing these HS players/coaches that a ball hitting any part of the arm (deliberate or not) is not an automatic handling call. I can yell out "not deliberate" or "Natural position" until I am blue in the face and most still don't get it. I cannot then say that a player moving his arm to protect his head is not deliberate or in a natural position. Again, at the HS level.

 

That is biologically nonsense, but NFHS is NFHS and seems to have come up with a truly lame brained view of what deliberate means. But I should note that my response above was responding to a post about "any level"--I was referring to soccer, not NFHS-game-that-mostly-looks-like-soccer

Pet peeve: unnatural position is not an alternative to deliberate; an unnatural position of the arm can be an indicator that the handling was deliberate.

 

I am not saying it is an alternative, but if a player moves his hand in front of his face after a ball that was kicked 20 yards away and because he cannot process to use his head to head it but another player with better skill could I am saying that is moving into a unnatural position. I guess you can argue that protecting yourself is "Natural", but can others protect themselves better? It is also a deliberate action. I am less tolerant for those that are 17 and 18 then those at a younger age. I have seen younger kids duck and cover on ball that a butterfly landed on in mid flight. If I see a 17yo do the same I am calling it.

Not sure if any of that made sense, but that is how I see it.

 

You're adding (or changing) facts. The OP spoke of "reflexive handling" with regard to a ball that was "directly at a teammate's face from less than 5 yards away who instinctively raised their hands to protect their face (and might have saved themself from a concussion)."

That's very different from your "ball that was kicked 20 yards away." I'm probably calling that one deliberate too.

 

I guess I don't see "natural position" as a useful way to look at these examples. What you describe is a conscious decision to use the arms instead of getting out of the way or heading the ball. That's deliberate--it's not instinctively or reflexively protecting oneself, which implies lack of time for conscious thought. If one makes the choice to use the arm instead of getting out of the way, that is deliberate handling. And I agree with you that the ability to make a choice is age/skill level dependent. Professionals are at a level where they can make that choice very quickly; 10Us, not so much.

My pet peeve with unnatural position is too often it is used as a substitute for deliberate. It was created as a concept to to address professional players who conveniently had their hand/arm held unnaturally so that it was in a place that stole space from the opponent--in other words, to identify a deliberate action by a player that leads to the ball-arm contact. Too often when it is used it has lost that conceptual bases. For example, a player will slip in the mud and flail, an when the ball hits the arm someone will say that wasn't a natural position, so it should be handling. Hogwash. A clearly non deliberate act.

 

Yes. The section you quote makes NFHS rules different from USSF customs.

The discussions I have been part of in various recerts, etc., have indicated that reflexive self-protection is not penalized. I have tried to initiate discussions with HS refs on this difference, but have never gotten anywhere. Hence, I just use the same -- protection is OK-- policy for both.

(The NFHS rule is unreasonable IMHO, and since no one can tell the difference anyway...)

 

This is helpful.

Again, i don't fully describe my thoughts, but, essentially, I've become a bit more cynical than when I started, probably a result of hearing "HANDABLL!" 100k times a weekend.

Essentially, when I started I always went with my gut. If I think it's a handball/deliberate and avoidable act, then it's a handball. Doing mostly youth, it works best, but over time I've slipped toward the dark side of making my own little rules to apply on-the-fly. I think it's hurt my judgment.

The reflexive, protective movement is more an instinct than a "cognitive" movement. I need to get back to my roots and quit letting "bad" peer judgement and coaches influence my process.

Dude I work with actually said "I don't care if she's protecting her face (after a near-point-blank kick), it's still a handball. At a U11/12 match.

 

Small sided games are 90% of what I do. Player safety is #1 on my list. If a ball is rocketed to a player and he or she is covering face/chest/groin and the ball hits the hands/arms, there is no way in the world I am calling that deliberate handling.

 

Covering and protecting one's groin should always be paramount and not penalized as handling. I failed to heed the advice to cover and protect last night when I took a full footed blast from 5 yards right smack in the naught bits. It was in the run of play on a small field in adult league and I just got caught with nowhere to hide. I was on the ground dying for a good 2 minutes.

 

I was helping coach my daughter's U6 team the other weekend. Around here, these games are 4 v 4, with no keepers and no referees. A coach from each team is on the field helping direct/coach/teach the players and acting as referee.

The ball bounces into the pack in front of our goal (there is always a pack at this age) and goes out of bounds. The other coach and I honestly had no idea who it was off of because it was between the pack and the sidelines so we asked the parents (our unofficial AR). Some old grandpa started yelling that it bounced up and hit white's hand, it should be a handball and a PK (we only have touch lines and the center line/circle drawn on the field...there are no PKs at this age). I told him that is not a handball, no way it was intentional. But pisses him off more and he starts yelling more and more. I am in street clothes so I just say, we are going with a corner kick (for his team) and turn and walk back away. The other coach is just standing there dumbfounded. Ugh....U6 soccer....

 

I have also posted this before, but I just remembered this story...

Was doing a U8 indoor game a while back when a ball gets drilled at a kid from about 5 feet away. He does one of those twisting Matrix-style dodgeball moves while throwing his arms over his face. He is not successful and the ball bounces off of his arms as he is falling down trying to get out of the way. No way am I calling that, so I yell out "no foul, keep playing." Play continues for 2-3 seconds until some helpful kid runs over and picks up the ball and hands it to me.



tweet. Now that's a handball....

 

Here is a good, still relevant, video on handball.
It doesn't cover everything but it's a good start.

It's been posted on this forum several times.