Resume for pre-WWII era: Generations around WC URUGUAY 30 Argentine = 2034 Uruguay = 1986 Italy = 1920 Scotland = 1942 Generations around WC ITALY 34 Italy = 2008 Austria = 1998 Argentine = 1994 England = 1922 Generations around WC FRANCE 38 Italy = 2079 Argentine = 2031 England = 1876 Czechoslovakia = 1845 Comments: * Italy became the most succesful team at 30s, winning 2 WC and 1 OG. They also had good record on friendly matches. * Unless null competition by SA sides at early 30s. Argentina who was first SA nation to created Pro-league, was the most consistent SA squad (runner-up in all international tournaments). At late 30s his "Golden Generation" appears on scene. * England had at 30s one of their finest generations of players. * In top-4 appears euro central nations, that played more consistently that past decades. .
Resume for post-WWII era: Around OG STOCKHOLM 48 Argentine = 2068 Italy = 2030 England = 1995 Brazil = 1947 Around WC BRAZIL 50 Argentine = 2042 Brazil = 2027 Italy = 2004 England = 1997 Around WC SWIRZERLAND 54 Hungary = 2165 Argentine = 2082 West Germany = 2037 Brazil = 2020 Around WC SWEDEN 58 Brazil = 2115 Argentine = 2084 Hungary = 2041 England = 1969 Comments: * This period, WM was the dominant system. * Magical Magyars reached biggest ELO coefficient of all times. * Argentina's Golden Generation peaked at late 40s. After that, they absent to intl tournaments for 8 eight years (few but succesfull friendlies) and when they return to Copa America, were unbeaten team. * Brazil became world power nation. * Italy still had great ELO, due to Il grande Torino's generation. * Also, England had at late 40s, maybe, their better generation. * Uruguay (non big-4) defeated Brazil at WC-50. First big surprised. * Second big surprised. West Germany beaten Hungary.
Msioux, I am not sure if this has been mentioned earlier, but you seem to be missing out on Nasazzi for Uruguay in WC 1930 and Sindelaar/Bican for Austria in WC 1934. Considering above criteria, I think you can still include Nasazzi in the Uruguay 1930 side as he would have been 29 at that time. Sindelaar would however be 31 in 1934 and Bican only 21. Have been able to go through the thread rather hurriedly mind you, so I don't know, maybe you have already explained about the absence of these players, in which case, don't bother. Have not yet been able to go through thoroughly in these sides
About Nasazzi, yes he could make it to WC30 generations, the reason i missed him, was i selected him for OG24 & OG 28. And for the austrian, they aged 31 & 21 by that time, as you said. And that was the main reason. Even they were on their primes at those time, also another like Gschweidl and Hiden, which i don't picked them for the same reason.
WC Mexico 1970 Top-Ten NTs around 1970 These are the best ELO coefficients for NTs between 1969-71: BRAZIL = 2154 ENGLAND = 2039 GERMANY = 2026 ITALY = 2010 U.S.S.R = 1965 HUNGARY = 1950 CZECHOSLOVAKIA = 1908 R.D.A. = 1906 URUGUAY = 1856 ARGENTINA = 1852 BONUS: PERU was a top-10 material with a few point lower. Biggest failures for WC --> Argentine & Hungary didn't qualify.
WC Mexico 70 Top-4 BRAZIL World class: Carlos Alberto, Gerson, Ademir da Guia, Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivelino International class: Manga, Piazza, Dario, Coutinho, Machado da Silva Formation: --------------------Manga C.Alberto ----- Jurandir ----- R.Dias ----- Rildo -----------Piazza -----------------------Gerson Jairzinho-----------------------------Rivelino -----------Coutinho ------- Tostao Subs: Felix; Joel Camargo, Everaldo; Lima; Ademir da Guia; Dario, Machado da Silva ITALY World class: Zoff, Facchetti, Mazzola, Rivera, Riva International class: Albertosi, Rosato, Benetti, Cappello, Domenghini, Chinaglia, Prati Formation: ------------------- Zoff Poletti ----- Rosato ----- Cera ----- Facchetti ------------------- Benetti ---------- Mazzola ------------ Rivera Domenghini ---------- Chinaglia ---------- Riva Subs: Albertosi; Morini, Marchetti; Juliano; Cappello; Boninsegna, Prati ENGLAND World class: Banks, Moore, Ball International class: Newton, Hughes, Hunter, Cooper, Stiles, Hurst, Peters Formation: ------------------- Banks Newton ----- Hunter ----- Moore ----- Hughes ------------------- Stiles --------- Ball ------------- Clarke Lee ----------- Hurst ------------- Peters Subs: Bonetti; Labone, Cooper; Watson; Bell; Chivers, Thompson WEST GERMANY World class: Vogts, Beckenbauer, Netzer, Overath, Grabowski, Muller International class: Fahrian, Hottges, Weber, Schwarzenbeck, Held, Holzenbein, Heynckes Formation: ------------------- Fahrian Hottges ----- Weber ------- Fichtel ----- Vogts ------------------ Beckenbauer ---------- Netzer ------------ Overath Grabowski ---------- Muller ---------- Holzenbein Subs: Wolter; Schwarzenbeck, Patzke; Sieloff; Held; Libuda, Heynckes .
WC Mexico 1970 Others NTs generations around 1970 SOVIET UNION: Rudakov, Dzodzuashvili, Shesternev, Sabo, Muntian, Serebrianikov, Bishovets HUNGARY: Szentmihalyi, Meszoly, Balint, Solymosi, Fazekas, Bene, Albert, Farkas EAST GERMANY: Urbanczyk, Bransch, Kreische, Sparwasser, Ducke, Vogel ARGENTINA: Gatti, Perfumo, Piazza, Albrecht, Doval, Bernao, Yazalde, Mas, Veron CZECHOSLOVAKIA: Viktor, Gogh, Pollak, Adamec, Vesely, Panenka, Jokl, Masek URUGUAY: Ubiña, Matosas, Pavoni, Mujica, Montero Castillo, Cortes, Rocha, Cubilla PERU: Melendez, Chumpitaz, Fuentes, Cruzado, Mifflin, Chale, Leon, Sotil, Gallardo .
Most times top-4 countries (1908-70): Argentina = 12 England = 10 Brazil = 7 Italy = 6 Uruguay = 4 Scotland = 4 W.Germany = 3 Only WCs (1930-70): Argentina = 7 England = 6 Brazil = 6 Italy = 5 W.Germany = 3 Uruguay = 1 Soviet Union = 2 Hungary = 2
For example, counting ELO ratings for only WCs periods: WC30 --> Top-4 ELO from 1929 to 31 WC34 --> Top-4 ELO from 1933 to 35 etc. And then, summarize how many times each country, was in top-4.
Biggest ELO ratings for pre-War era: Around 1908: ENGLAND = 2017 DENMARK= 1865 HOLLAND = 1862 ARGENTINA = 1835 SCOTLAND = 1744 Around 1912: ENGLAND = 2033 HOLLAND = 1938 DENMARK= 1927 ARGENTINA = 1808 SCOTLAND = 1775 Around 1920: DENMARK= 1914 URUGUAY = 1906 ENGLAND = 1891 SPAIN = 1875 BELGIUM = 1856 Around 1924: URUGUAY = 1972 SPAIN = 1902 ARGENTINA = 1860 CZECHOSLOVAKIA = 1854 SCOTLAND = 1849 Around 1928: URUGUAY = 2035 ARGENTINA = 1989 SCOTLAND = 1922 SPAIN = 1922 AUSTRIA= 1881 Around 1930: ARGENTINA = 2034 URUGUAY = 1986 SCOTLAND = 1942 ITALY = 1920 AUSTRIA= 1887 Around 1934: ITALY = 2008 AUSTRIA= 1998 ARGENTINA = 1994 URUGUAY = 1970 ENGLAND = 1922 Around 1938: ITALY = 2079 ARGENTINA = 2031 HUNGARY = 1883 ENGLAND = 1876 BRAZIL = 1868 .
Most times #1 NT for pre-War era: URUGUAY 3 times ENGLAND 2 times ITALY 2 times ARGENTINA 1 time PS: In 1920, was the closest between Denmark (1914) and Uruguay (1906), but South Americans had better players and also won continental tournaments in near years. https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1381429&page=2
Most times Top-5 NT for pre-War era (1908-38): ARGENTINA 7 times URUGUAY 5 times ENGLAND 5 times SCOTLAND 5 times ITALY 3 times DENMARK 3 times AUSTRIA 3 times SPAIN 3 times HOLLAND 2 times PS: Brazil & Germany wasn't powerful nations at this Era!!!!
Better ELO average for pre-War era (1908-38): ARGENTINA = 1927 ENGLAND = 1901 URUGUAY = 1896 SCOTLAND = 1845 SPAIN = 1843 CZECHOSLOVAKIA = 1830 ITALY = 1810 DENMARK = 1808 AUSTRIA = 1802 HUNGARY = 1791
Biggest NT's primes for pre-War era: ENGLAND (ELO 2017 & 2033): Amateur & Professional sides at OG 1908 & 12 URUGUAY (ELO 2035): Olympics side at 20s ARGENTINA (ELO 2034): On SA pitch, they owning uruguayan side, also runner-up in OG & WC AUSTRIA (ELO 1998): The wunderteam ITALY (ELO 2008 & 2079): WC & OG champions ARGENTINA (ELO 2031): At late 30s, appears their golden generation
So, who was the best football nation at Pre-war era? I'd said it's a very close amongt Argentina, England & Uruguay. PS: The 1908-24 period plays against Italy better average.
Italy was the country with the best peak in pre-world era, but wasn't very good in consistency. Also, England who was regarded as the world football teachers, surpringsinly doesn't get the 1st place (although 26 difference points, isn't that much), but England has one of the best peaks in that period.
I'm pretty sure this is because of the way the ELO rankings work. They reward World Cups and championships much more than "friendlies". Despite the fact that this discrepancy doesn't fit with the reality of the time. This favours the South American teams because they were constantly playing Copa Americas. The team hurt the most are Scotland. They'd have annhiliated the likes of Holland or Denmark in this era yet are way behind them. The rankings just don't work for that era.
The 2 best european teams considering average ELO were ENGLAND & SCOTLAND. Very close to Scots were Spain & Czechoslovakia. Also your statement about points for Copa America, really could make bias for SA like you said, since British nations didn't participate in any intl. tournament in inter-war period. BTW, i'm not so sure if tournaments like Dr. Gero Cup or British Home Championship get the same value than other intl. tournaments.
I'm trying to considered other variables to better accurate, like: * Minor difference between NTs (+/- 50 points). For example, it's debatable who's better between Argentina (1927 ELO) and England (1901) * How many world class players had each NT (subject to revision from experts) Finally, my first intention it's not assert, X team was better than Y team. This is more like to put into context, who were the powerful nations across different eras
No, and I wasn't trying to say you were. Just that while the ELOs are a useful guide, they have a particular flaw in that era.
I agree that this is useful guide, notting is set in stone. This it's a link w/strongest teams per decade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strongest_Football_Nations_by_Elo_Ratings#Strongest_teams_per_decade Another hurt nation in average ranking are Uruguay. It would explain by his low ranking at OG'1908, while the other great SA nation (Argentina) was more consistency through pre-world era. Sadly, the two great SA nations at that time, don't get the chance to prove themselves against two great british nations like England & Scotland (best 2 Euro NT on average). But at the olympics, they got first places in competition with the best euro continental sides (excluding Austria & Denmark) http://www.rsssf.com/tableso/olympics.html
WC West Germany 1974 Top-Ten NTs around 1974 These are the best ELO coefficients for NTs between 1973-75: BRAZIL = 2104 W.GERMANY = 2099 HOLLAND = 2048 POLAND = 2046 ENGLAND = 1972 ITALY = 1964 E.GERMANY = 1949 YUGOSLAVIA = 1944 ARGENTINA = 1874 SWEDEN = 1861 Biggest failure for WC --> England didn't qualify.
WC West Germany 1974 Top-4 BRAZIL World class: Luis Pereira, Dirceu Guimaraes, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Tostao International class: Nelinho, Marinho Chagas, Clodoaldo, Paulo Cesar, Leivinha, Edu Formation: --------------------- Raul Nelinho ---- L.Pereira ---- Joel ---- Marinho Chagas ------------------ Clodoaldo -------- Dirceu G ------------ Rivelino Jairzinho --------- Tostao ----------- Leivinha Subs: Ado; Marinho Peres, Marco Antonio; Carpeggiani; Paulo Cesar Caju; Alcindo, Edu HOLLAND World class: Krol, Neeskens, Cruyff, Rensenbrink International class: Van Beveren, Suurbier, Haan, Muhren, van Hanegem, W.van der Kerkhof, Rep, R.van der Kerkhof, Geels Formation: ------------------ Van Beveren Suurbier ---- Rijsbergen ---- Hulshoff ---- Krol ---------------------- Haan --------- Neeskens ----------------------- Van Hanegem Rep ----------- Cruyff ------------- Rensenbrink Subs: Jongbloed; Mansveld, Hovenkamp; Jansen; W.van der Kerkhof; R.van der Kerkhof, Geels POLAND World class: Deyna, Lato, Lubanski International class: Tomaszewski, Szymanowski, Gorgon, Kasperczak, Szarmach, Gadocha Formation: --------------------- Tomaszewski Szymanowski ----- Bulzacki ----- Gorgon ----- Musial ---------------------- Kasperczak ---------- Cmikiewicz ------------------------------ Deyna Lato ----------- Lubanski ------------- Szarmach Subs: Kostka; Maculewicz, Anczok; Bula; Maszczyk; Domarski, Gadocha WEST GERMANY World class: Maier, Vogts, Beckenbauer, Breitner, Bonhof, Netzer, Grabowski, Muller International class: Fahrian, Schwarzenbeck, Dietz, Hoeness, Holzenbein, Heynckes, Fischer Formation: ------------------------ Maier Vogts --- Schwarzenbeck --- Beckenbauer --- Breitner ------------------------ Bonhof ------------- Hoeness -------------------------------- Netzer Grabowski ----------- Muller ------------- Heynckes Subs: Fahrian; Russmann, Dietz; Cullmann; Flohe; Holzenbein, Fischer .