There is a story of Carlos quieroz working late at night in his office at carrington(Manchester United’s training ground)and he noticed a lone figure near some trees from a far away distance He called the ground security to check if it was a spy or something they told him it’s was just Cristiano ronaldo practicing his skills and FKs When talent,work ethic and a winning mentality Are combined in 1 individual the result is a player like Cristiano ronaldo Then..... there is a total freak like Lionel Messi. I’d really like to know what drug people have been taking if they think they’ve ever lived in era with two footballers of this calibre Threads like “the next ballon D’Or winner after Messi/ronaldo” were started by people who were fed up about them holding a monopoly over individual awards When football returns to elite Strikers scoring 25-30 league goals+ 5-10 CL goals in their best ever season then they’ll start harping on about how amazing these two players were Then it will be too late and they could’ve just appreciated what was in front of their eyes for 10+ years
My theory is you have to throw modern advancements into the equation as well. For example, would Pele have suffered his dip in form in his early 30s if he had the benefit of modern sciences? If 34 year old Pele could retain the physique that a 34 year old Ronaldo can (or even a 34 year old Robben) could he have led Brazil to another World Cup run in 1974? It's something we'll never know. Messi is an even clearer case. Throw Messi back 50 years ago, and he wouldn't even had the chance to become a professional footballer. Messi also wouldn't be Messi without La Masia education. One of the things that make Messi so ridiculous is that in addition to the usual technical and physical dominance GOAT candidates possess, Messi is also one of the smartest players in the world. He rarely ever makes a poor decision or makes a play that doesn't benefit his team. Truly a product of his environment, imo.
Definitely. He was literally provided the best possible environment and surroundings to develop as a footballer.
Going by the stratospheric heights Pele reached in the early 60s I’d say he already declined by a significant margin when he was barely 25-26 years old Pele was never the same player again post 1965 let alone having a chance at 34 years old to lead Brazil to a WC(this is wishful thinking IMO) Yes I agree re Messi his decision making is the best I’ve ever seen We laud about some of the outrageous passes maradona could pull of but hardly talk about the success ratio Messi plays it safer Isn’t as extravagant but he is ruthlessly consistent as a goal scorer and provider
That's my point. A lot of the older players aged horribly. The way they took care of their body and the coaching of yesteryears must have been awful. Even as recent as the 1990s, most players in the EPL still smoked and drinked between games. If you do a great thing on the football pitch, most of the time that will be the right thing as well. But not every player who does some great things does also do a lot of right things. “Genius comes at a price” – you hear that often when people talk about the great football artists. With Lionel Messi, that is not the case. His whole game is infused with a deep rationality. He does what needs to be done. Sometimes that is the most amazing goal you have ever seen, sometimes it is just the simple lay up. Messi’s game is marked by the cool efficiency that is usually reserved for central midfielders like Toni Kroos.
One point that many have to remember, whether this has or doesn't has effect, is that the Brazilian calendar is strenuous for players here, I don't know to what extent Pele having something close to 1300 matches disputed in 1974 would have, with or without technology, gasoline in the tank. Let's remember that also the issue of tactical development (high defensive line for example), fair play rules (very few violent faults and tackles), specialized monitoring in supplements, nutrition, evolution of sports medicine among a thousand other factors allied the fact that stronger clubs are getting much stronger ($$) that actually the best players have all the tools and environment to stay at the top for longer than it was expected 30 or 40 years ago, saying about average. About the topic IMO (no ordem) Johan Cruyff Franz Beckenbauer Ferenc Puskas Cristiano Ronaldo I rank these players a bit higher than the ones like Platini, Muller, Eusebio and Van Basten.
Eh, we already know Pele could have led Brazil to a World Cup run even in the actual 1974. He just couldn't be arsed to deal with the politics surrounding the NT anymore. Now, if by run you mean a Pele, with or without futuristic medical technology, would have led that team to the title... let's be reasonable here. Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Anyway, good, fruitful discussion here. "Player X would've totally sucked/ruled if scientific advancement and all of society was completely different than what it was".
I don't have anything to say regarding your post, I just wanted to let you know that you have the best username in the history of BIgSoccer. Although IMO Bariaga & Aruglia > Ariaga II
King of the Champions League/European Cup. King of Europe. If you only counted Cristiano Ronaldo's goals in the knockout-stage, he'd still be 3rd All-Time goal scorer in the competition. Just absurd.
If Messi had played in Argentina during the 40's, 50's and 60's, with very few footage, no exclusive youtube video after his matches, no Champions League in his curriculum, no whoscored site, repeatedly failing with Argentina in International Events and even with less club impact, including statistically and in terms of rise a team, than other athletes from that same savage continent at the same period.. ********, he would not be even TOP10. We could look at him and think he just flopped.. that he was very talented of course, but that he failed, so we would judge him in that way.
Hardly any of what you listed is needed to appreciate his greatness as a footballer Even without the footage there are the records set in stone and he became Barcelonas all time top scorer at 25 years old Won his 4th consecutive ballon dor at 26 years old Won 5 European golden shoes which is more than the combined total of R9+Romario+van basten+Henry The advanced statistics are helpful but actually not needed (at all) to place him his rightful all time position We know you like to hypothesise about imaginary scenarios but if we explored every single possibility we would be here forever The facts are he did those things and he is where he deserves to be
Zidane seems to be particularly productive in CL SFs it’s nice to see(also above Xavi in assists despite playing in nearly half the amount of games and for a dysfunctional team ,the very overhyped galacticos project) Btw at least 3 of those 8 CL QF assists by Ryan Giggs were pre assisted by Cristiano ronaldo in the 8-2 pummelling of Roma in 2007 players like Zidane/xavi in particular potentially also racked up a fair amount of pre assists but it will require some effort to calculate all of them Leadleader claims to have access to most of zidanes games from 01/02 and 02/03 so perhaps that could be a task he would be willing to undertake
He is the best player of his generation, period. Any comparison with past players is unmeasured and pointless, specially If we don't define objective parameters for this. And if we set those parameters, raising a club and national club level, young age achievements (talent), contained analysis of all of their international presentations, direct participations in their team goals, being complete, performance in all their finals then the greatest is Pelé, by a healthy margin. PD: and yes I know that many people here don't like that I talking about Pelé being the real GOAT, you being one of them (since you've shown countless other times your hatred for Pelé - and many other BR players).
I call bullshit on this the claim about Pele being more dominant in finals Messi in the 2015 copa Del Rey final and 2011 CL final reached a level above and beyond Pele Prime Messi was never outscored at Barcelona by a nobody with hardly any caps like Pele was outscored by toninho,countinho,Pepe at various points for santos The international performances go to Pele I agree Even though you don’t like to hear it His NT could win a WC and he literally played 1 game and some added minutes At least 50% of Brazil’s hall of fame was in that 62 team Heck even vava became a legendary scorer with this support cast In terms of vision there is no contest absolutely no contest It is a fact despite the propaganda videos that Pele wasn’t even a better passer than rivaldo Let alone rivelino or dinho(I don’t mention Zico because he is on another planet when it comes to playmaking at least compared to Pele and deep down you know this aswell) The talent,stats,club trophies and longevity are on LM10s side As of now Pele should settle for 2nd place with maradona/Cruyff joint 3rd Then ADS/CR/Puskas Then platini/Zico/Eusebio Etc.......
And we Brazilians that are the "Latin Liars", you make Europeans look bad and dumb, carlitos. Messi is arguably not the Best Argentinian player of history - someone like Vegan for example could put Di Stéfano, Maradona and Moreno ahead of Lionel. On the other hand, Pelé is the greatest player of all time, the most clutch player of all time, the most determinant, the most complete and the greatest talent ever, he is what Jordan is to Basketball. The Athlete of the Century. http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/pele-and-messi-a-comparison-between-two-geniuses/ http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-ii-club-performance/ http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iii-national-team-performance/ http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iv-conclusion/ http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/10/02/pele-and-messi-in-finals/ OFFICIAL GAMES (WITH ALL PENALTIES) GOALS/TEAM GOALS 1.1) ZICO 1983-1984 UDINESE (COPPA ITALIA AND SERIE A) = 43.63% 1) PELÉ, 58-65 SANTOS = 42.58% 2) ZICO, 74-83 FLAMENGO = 39.50% 3) CRISTIANO RONALDO, REAL MADRID = 38.68% 4) MESSI, 09-10 17-18 BARCELONA = 37.30% 5) PUSKAS, REAL MADRID = 33.98% 6) PLATINI, JUVENTUS ITALIA SERIE A = 29.18% 7) MARADONA, NAPOLI = 28.67% 8) PUSKAS, HONVED = 28.56% NON-PK GOALS / TEAM GOALS 1) PELÉ, 58-65 SANTOS = 37.93% 2) ZICO, 83-84 UDINESE SERIE A AND COPPA ITALIA = 36.36% 2.1) ZICO, 74-83 FLAMENGO = 32.68% 2) MESSI, 09-10 17-18 BARCELONA = 32% 3) CRISTIANO RONALDO, REAL MADRID = 31.46% 4) PLATINI JUVENTUS SERIE A = 24.89% 5) MARADONA NAPOLI = 17.45% Pelé is the GOAT.
You guys will actually see what I am talking about now, with the increasing of the financial disparity between the top clubs and the other clubs you guys will see more and more players putting numbers equal or higher than the one of Messi or Cristiano i the next 5, 10 years, Champions League etc.
Why is Messi better than Cruyff for example? Cruyff took the main part in a much more upward trajectory with Ajax and the Netherlands than Messi with either Barcelona or Argentina, arguably better performances in international competitions, more impact in all clubs he played and with his NT and he was much more important in the sense of revolutionizing the game, whether on or off the field, than Messi. Cruyff is definitely a better World Cup player than Messi and very arguably better in the European Cups as well.
Whenever vegan chooses to return to this forum he will tell that he hasn’t seriously enjoyed or watched football since maradonas day(the 1980s) So yeah he probably is an authority on maradona(maybe even Moreno) but definitely not on Messi I don’t even support or particular like Barcelona but I have all his available games on hard drive,I’ve watched him live on probably hundreds of occassions,I’ve seen him performing live in a stadium In other words I know what I’m talking about Once again you enjoy proving me right I told you that you’ve never objectively analysed a single player in your whole life.what do you go and do? Copy and paste graphs of performances with no specified context,nothing about the gulf in difference between Amazonian leagues and top 5 European leagues to prove how dumb you are you’ve compared goal involvements of zico at udinese when he was a striker to maradona at Napoli who almost always played behind 2 strikers for the duration of his career in Italy
Shouldn't make this another thread comparing Messi, Pele, Ronaldo, etc ... It's best European player.
It’s very hard not to be offensive when you say silly stuff like this You claim it’s arguable so then make your case
It is very hard not to be offensive with all your shitty posts level Rivaldo was a better passer, Vava was i don't know what, Amazonian League, Messi is the Goat because I've all his matches compilation, World Cup was a random competition, Cristiano Ronaldo is he fastest player in all history etc etc.. they don't deserve more than a copy and paste posts... that you can argue against objectively because the data shows a clearly advantage for Pelé. You really need to improve your behaviour to get at least some debate.
I wonder, if given time, we'll settle for Europe having 5 kings from 5 different countries: Ronaldo - Portugal Platini - France Cruyff - Netherlands Puskas - Hungary Beckenbauer - Germany
Rivaldo definitely was a better passer then Pele and there is no doubt about that whatsoever Particularly in long passing the difference is noticeable the only thing that let down Rivaldo was his decision making and he was an excessive ball hog On his day however he could pull of elite playmaker passes from any distance/angle We understand your in love with Neymar( he is your hope for Brazil) But you underrate Rivaldo without knowing or realising that his prime in 98/99 was still higher than Neymar(up till now and I’m actually not kidding)