At first glance those lists seem pretty decent. I wouldn't rule out Bergkamp for an honourable mention potentially, but it's always going to be hard to decide who should get one of those I guess. Bergkamp's start was a bit difficult, and it took him a little while to score his first goals, but after that I think it's fair to say he had a good, or very good season. Baggio as top assister might seem surprising but I don't know of a source that shows Serie A assists I don't think. Videos are probably available on Youtube for all the goals though (game by game, although there is also a Milan Videoteca video with most of them on I think). Weah did get quite a lot himself, so I might be surprised if Baggio had more. Baggio did show some flashes of quality during the season, but in general I think his form/confidence was very patchy. Maybe it could be compared to Shevchenko at Chelsea in 06/07 where occasionally there would be a sign of the expected player (although maybe more of Shevchenko's goals and best moments came in domestic cups if anything), like Shevchenko's assist to Drogba vs Everton or goal vs Tottenham in the FA Cup. Baggio did have a couple or so quality goals (free-kicks mostly perhaps, including the Uefa Cup one vs Bordeaux) and linked up well for a goal sometimes (I can think of a Savicevic goal vs Sampdoria as an example I think unless I'm getting mixed up but like I say Youtube can help anyway). But just as Shevchenko's fitness issues and morale that year led to various moments where he might miss a chance or lose the ball, it was a bit like that for Baggio in 95/96 I think. One play I can think of was where Baggio plays a really good pass on the turn to Weah, but then when the move develops and it comes to Baggio on the edge of the box he fires over the bar and sinks onto his knees which maybe was indicative of how he was feeling at the time. The difference is though that although Shevchenko maybe had a late revival in his career in some ways, like at the Euros, his first Chelsea season ended up as the start of the confirmation he was past his best, whereas Baggio got back much closer to his best later on of course. There is a Bergkamp assists video on Youtube I think though, so that will show that he certainly got a good number of them in 95/96 and had really become a key player in the constructive play of Arsenal, and formed a fruitful partnership where he often supplied Wright.
Well, I disagree there were two or three classes between Cantona and Bergkamp that season. As an illustration: Cantona had 10 non penalty goals and 9 or 10 assists in the league. Bergkamp had 11 non penalty goals and 8 or 9 assists in the league for a worse team (that he with his teamplay, awareness and positional sense helped to improve from a 12th place to 5th place, securing european football on the last day). In all competitions for their club Cantona had 14 non-penalty goals and 12 assists in 38 appearances. The other player had 16 non-penalty goals and 10 or 11 assists in 41 games. Factor in pre-assists (generally after a through ball) and the pendulum swings heavily to Bergkamp for sure. Needless to say, in international games Cantona didn't do as much or didn't play. I can elaborate this further but it will fall on deaf ears anyway. More absurd however is the Peru FC snub for 1998-99 (not even a honorable mention) while he was (deservedly) nominated for PFA player of the year. That shows the real colors of the foe once again. Another very telling example: Hasselbaink topped both the topscorer and assists chart in 1998-99 (with zero penalties!). He isn't in the 23 or among your honorable mentions either (the top ~100 players of the season). Very, very telling example again. This will never happen with your beloved Germans or Uruguayans.
Ronaldo Luis has only 15 Champions League goals and two really good games there (vs Real Madrid 1998 and United 2003). This despite playing for Barcelona, Inter, Real Madrid and Milan. Yet his class is (correctly) never doubted by Peru FC and pals - he is rated one or two classes higher by Peru FC as the best European strikers... That's the problem.
What kind of invention is this? By the way, who are my pals? The "anti-Dutch world machinery"? All those who disagree with you, rep me a message and/or criticize your outbursts? As I mentioned earlier, I think you have to calm down a bit. These meaningless messages, irregular inventions and silly personal quarrels are the ones I try to avoid in some Latin forums that you don't appreciate.
@PDG1978 I saw this lately "Johan Cruyff explains in the AZ newspaper [the club magazine of AZ Alkmaar] in 1979 why he was forced to play football again after his retirement" 1171326126905577472 is not a valid tweet id Scanning it in and using a translation tool gives (note: he uses the T-V distinction to the reader): Sorry it wasn't planned, but.... What has bothered me the most in all the restless months of the past is this: so many reproaches have been hurled at me, because I have started to play football again, that sometimes I have become terribly depressed. And let me, as a guest of AZ, make one thing clear to all those hundreds of thousands of readers: it was definitely not my intention to actively play football again when I said goodbye last year. Sorry that I fall into the doorstep like that. I think you are entitled to an explanation on my behalf. When I played my last game against Bayern Munich, I had no doubt whatsoever. It was finished, period. For fourteen years I had lived at the top of my abilities. That demands energy, whole amounts of force. It is nice to climb from a boy from Betondorp to one of the most famous people in the world and, I must admit, it has had its advantages. But in the long run, the disadvantages outweigh, certainly, if you have secured your finances and you feel that your family and other family members no longer have to worry about that for the rest of your life. The motivation slowly disappears. You love your profession endlessly but it will stop at a given moment. Always travel, always deny yourself everything, because you have to be physically in order, never be allowed to fail, always one or two opponents who are only out there to hit you wherever they can. Sorry, but I wanted something different. From all the offers from the relations that you get all over the world, I got the idea that I would make it as a businessman. That has become a disappointment. I have never liked it that everyone knew about it, but the reality is not different: if something like that happens to Johan Cruijff, it should be as prominent as possible in the newspapers, whether you like it or not. And then one gets the other out. Everyone presses you to respond. You hold on well for a long time, but then it ends. Just like my wife Danny, but also my father-in-law, I had a lot of private problems. And then it hurts, when you hear, and even read, that those stories would have been made up to make my return as a football player possible. At such moments you wonder how someone comes to write something like that. In that period, once you have come to realize that being a businessman is not everything, you want revenge. Then you want to try to catch up as quickly as possible, what you have lost. I am the son of a shopkeeper and I have always been a typical representative of the Dutch mentality: I don't like to throw money at the bar. And then the offers come. Some well intentioned, some for the sensation. But my true friends (and you get to know them in such a period) advised me to play soccer again. In the beginning I thought: you can't do that, that's a decline. You think of all those people who have experienced your goodbyes, you think that you are being laughed at and you actually know in advance that there is a category of people who think you mock them. You believe me: I hesitated for a very long time before I finally said yes to a comeback as a football player. But the offers were too tempting. And I knew that I could not wait too long, otherwise I would be too old to signify something for football. And when I could go to the Los Angeles Aztecs, I thought: it is good and helpful to be in a different country for a while, moreover in a region (California) that has always intrigued me. And what was also important: I felt like it again, It sounds strange, but when I hadn't played for a while, I only realized how charming that football sport actually is. If, like me, you have been in it for so many years, then the obligations become greater than the pleasure. You are actually ruined, you do not realize how privileged you are that you can turn such a pastime as football into such a lucrative sandwich. That is exactly what I would like to say to every young professional football player, without wanting to appear as the all-knowing: realize how wonderful it is to be allowed to belong to the chosen group of professional football players. I also hope that you will take it from me that I am not disrespecting the supporters at home in the Netherlands. It was not planned that way, but at hindsight I am happy with America. For various reasons. Now that I have been here for a while, I also get a nice picture of life and work here. And I have to say, I appreciate it. The people are nice, the climate is good, the football is not too bad in terms of game level and I am especially happy that I am here to help Rinus Michels. My former coach at Ajax and Barcelona is doing a lot to raise American football. That I can contribute and add to that is one of the reasons that I chose the Aztecs. It is also important to me, it now appears, that I can live here quietly without being recognized. In Europe it was impossible for me to walk around without crowds of people around me. Here I am just a face in the crowd. Once again I was able to eat somewhere quietly without all kinds of people approaching me immediately. After I stopped playing football, I always kept in the back of my mind that I can mean something for the youth. In December last year we already set up Inter Soccer to be able to do something for the youth in America. I fully support the ideas that we have developed there. Through targeted training for young people, I want to achieve with Inter Soccer that the level of football in the United States will rise considerably. The young boys here are eager, eager to learn and have a good view of the sport. The entire American society is based on sport, only they have to integrate the finesses of football into their perception of sport in general. The Americans try to think of all kinds of methods to make football popular. The entire show around the competitions is funny. The public thinks it is wonderful. They have also introduced the 35-yard rule for off-side. Also nice for the public, but if the Americans ever want to achieve something internationally, then they will have to change.
@PDG1978 This might be interesting for you I thought, I saw five minutes of it. Also because (as known) he has rarely spoken in public, in English, since his retirement. I thought about it after remembering @Tom Stevens his request who would be my top 10. Haven't forgotten about it, but there are about a dozen candidates for #10 spot in my eyes. I'd have VdS and Seedorf among those (the latter because, among other things, his clubs do have a better European record with him in the team, nor were they in a position to win before his arrival, and he chipped in with goals and assists during decisive matches, and he was fundamentally a good footballer with some terrific assists as well; he's behind Xavi also the central midfielder with the most ESM selections and this excludes 1994-95 ofc). The first nine I have decided for myself but that's me. I might do something similar for Belgian players (as mentioned before, Scifo is arguably more fondly rated abroad than at home or up north - the NED magazine 'Tardelli' did recently - where he is most of the times not in the top 10 or top 15). I'll log off (stop posting) now for today. Cheers
Yes, it is good. I already watched half of it actually, and it was holding my attention but I will watch the other half at a later time now.
@poetgooner I'll reply to this here if you don't mind - and I think both are proper candidates for an all-time XI. While I think Busquets is also all-time XI material I think you might slightly undervalue Rijkaard's playmaking capabilities. In the sense of distributing the ball and a final ball in his boots (imho, even when playing as a defender, he had the final ball in him at the biggest games like the 1995 CL final that Busquets didn't to this extent). See the 1989 EC final for another example of a through-ball. Sadly the compilation where he is playing as a defender vs Juventus is deleted but here a glimpse of it. Or the fine skills in this match as midfielder. As anecdotal evidence, 'pes stats' rates his technique 1 point lower as prime Busquets and 2-3 points higher as prime Baresi. Later on when returning at Ajax he played in a role that was very similar to the one of Busquets, in my perception and the perception of many others (including Van Gaal). The first half of the 1993-94 season he played in midfield but then he was moved deeper in front of Reiziger, Blind and De Boer. In that capacity he received a standing ovation by the Milan supporters when beating them 2-0 (should have been 4-0). Either way, from a logical point of view Busquets is up there too, but in the sense of distribution and the final ball in his boots he had also a playmaking capabilities. Sometimes perfectly dealing with imperfect pitches when he played one touch through-balls with backspin. He had the trapping, shot and final ball for playing adequately as an attacking midfielder, which he also did at rare occasions. The World Cup doppelgangers tool (comparing both players) shows this as well. edit: for clarity - it's hard and comparisons are always limited like a cookie cutter, but personally I have him in the group above the likes of Krol, Koeman etcetera. Koeman also very accomplished in the sense of winning Champions Leagues with both ultra-defensive and ultra-offensive teams but if I have to make a choice, then that's the difference. Recently I saw Rinus Israel claiming/explaining Rijkaard was basically Van Dijk with an inch more technique (with the exception of the pacy long balls). I don't disagree perse with him.
Yes, technically he was very good. His all-round abilities was why I picked him for my all-time XI. I imagine him doing what Fernandinho has done for Pep's Man City, except to the highest level.However, I'd still say he's not as good as Busquets in terms of playmaking and building up play. It's not necessarily just about the technique, although I also think Busquets is both a slightly better passer and ball controller, even though Rijkaard's athleticism probably makes him an overall dribbler. I think Busquets simply make better decisions more consistently. In the games that I've seen Rijkaard play, there were some moments where he wasted the ball by making ambitious plays. Busquets is ultra consistent with his play. His passing accuracy must be around the 90%. Now, it could easily just be because Rijkaard was asked to play more risky passes, while Busquets wasn't. That could go about explaining the difference.
Was browsing this thread and thought this quote paired up well with a recent quote from another former Milan and Italian CB, one of the best of all time. “Cristiano Ronaldo? I’m lucky that I retired before he came along. We know how good he is at always being in the right spot. He often goes into the box without the ball and he is very difficult to mark. You have to try and limit him,” Baresi said, per Calcio Mercato. https://www.foxsports.com.my/footba...eft-serie-a-before-cristiano-ronaldo-arrived/ An interesting thought that is commonly repeated by many, on here and elsewhere, is that "you can't compare players across eras". But you can, it's just naturally more difficult to do so. Except in the case of CR7. When CR7 started at Manchester United, they were getting tossed out of the Champions League by the likes of Porto in the Round of 16 or Benfica in the group stage. Where did he eventually take them as the undoubted focal point of his team? To the summit of European football. When CR7 started at Real Madrid, they were unable to pass the Round of 16 for years and years. Where did he eventually take them as the undoubted focal point of his team (even more evident now since his departure)? To the summit of European football, 4 times, while destroying virtually every scoring record possible in the Champions League, the most competitive competition in the sport's history. When CR7 started playing for the Portuguese National Team they had been to 3 World Cups and 3 European Championships, achieving 3 semi-finals within those as their best performances. After he nabbed a spot in Portugal's Starting XI, a spot that he never let go of, against Spain at Euro 2004 (at the age of 19), where did he eventually take them as the undoubted focal point of his team (even among the likes of Figo, as demonstrated vs. France in 2006)? To the summit of European football, a place they had never been before. Not to mention appearances at every tournament since he entered the team, two tournament final appearances that remain the only two in Portugal's history (whilst scoring the all-important first goal in each final's respective preceding semi-final), leading a Portugal team with HUGO ALMEIDA as a starting striker to the Euro 2012 semi-finals where Portugal brought Spain's Golden Generation closer to the brink of a tournament exit than any other national team in their Golden period. There's players who have been able to do the above with one team and have been rightfully venerated in the sport's history. The likes of Cruyff, the only real competitor Ronaldo has for the European GOAT claim, had been able to do it with Ajax and the Netherlands, although only to a certain degree as a title was lacking with the latter. To do it with three teams, both national team and club sides, to such levels, has not been done before and will not be done again. Which brings me back to Baresi's point. Given CR7 has been able to achieve all he has achieved in the time period of the sport that has, by far, the highest level of global competition in it's history, as a result of vastly improved sports medicine, sports fitness and preparation, kinesiology, improved commercialization etc. etc., it's precisely why a legendary CB like Baresi claims he's 'lucky' he never played against him. Because if Ronaldo has shown one thing throughout his career, it is that it doesn't matter what country/league he plays in, who he plays with or he plays against. And, more than any other European player in history, it doesn't matter what year or decade he plays in either. You throw his machine-like physicality and mentality in 1960 or 2100 and it will lead to the same result. He will find a way to beat you and he will win.
When Ronaldo retires he will be ranked behind only Pele, Maradona and Messi, as is appropriate for the European GOAT. But Ronaldo and Messi are still playing so that Top 4 could still change considerably. For Ronaldo, the only thing that could change this IMO is a World Cup win and maybe even a successfully defended title at Euro 2020. The latter would propel him to a more even-standing with Messi and a World Cup would have his legacy surpass Messi's entirely. Messi wins a World Cup and he surpasses Maradona and becomes relatively level with Pele IMO. Ronaldo's remaining competition in terms of legacy is South America's 3 best ever, which happen to be the World's best ever. With Portugal's current crop of talent, 2020 and 2022 will have Ronaldo surrounded with a level of talent he hasn't had since Portugal's Golden Generation, and I'd personally say surpasses that group. He knows its his last Euro and World Cup where he can actually be the focal point of the team. Crazier things have happened.
Great amount of bold claims. Zero arguments. It is evil minded to put Maradona on a higher level than Cruijff, certainly from a 'legacy' perspective.
I'm not sure I was looking to create an argument, more of an observation of what public perception and opinion would be. In my opinion of course. Maradona is already considered at a higher level than Cruyff. Pele and him are mentioned together, not Pele and Cruyff. Generally. You may think it is evil to do so, and I may even agree but that is what the general public thinks.
You still believe Messi has to win a WC to surpass Diego? What about the league titles The goals(all time records of which Maradona has none) Assists Consistency CL performances and titles I think on his day Maradona was the single most technically gifted football wizard ever I cannot believe Messi who will reach 700 goals+250 assists well before his 33rd birthday The most devastating dribbler of his era 10 leagues+4 CLs Several domestic cups Etc Is markedly inferior when compared to Maradona (iin fact not inferior at all) A WC will make him not just better but demonstrably so to the point where there is no comparison There is night and day between Messi/maradona at club level
Again, as mentioned with @PuckVanHeel, I wasn't very clear of the perspective I was commenting on. I would personally take Messi over Maradona. But until Messi wins a World Cup, he will not surpass Maradona in the eyes of Argentinians and in that regard, needs a World Cup for his legacy. Right or wrongly. I''d tend to wrongly while at the same time noting that winning your country a World Cup is the pinnacle of the sport's achievements. That's nothing to sniff at, especially when the performance ranks as the greatest ever in tournament history.
Of course the tribal nature of the general public goes to that direction, of course the factfree Latin masses create that critical mass. But 'expert' polls do not and have not. edit: I really get tired of this nonsense. I remember saying to you in the past how the IFFHS expert poll, L'Equipe, Don Balon, SportBild, FourFourTwo peer poll (in 1995) etcetera ranked it. But some dudes like Danko are out there to just do a hit-and-run and repeat the same thing again and again.
I've heard this a lot Are there any polls that can back this up That of 2019 Argentinans(as a whole-not just a certain age group)still view maradona as superior
Not sure. I'm commenting from my own understanding. Could very well be wrong if there is data out there to prove it. But I'd say your point of 'hearing this a lot' explains why that is my perspective. I too have heard it a lot and why I believe it is general opinion.
If the above reflected my own valuation of the players, I'd have CR7 and Messi leading, not Pele & Maradona. Would choose both over Pele and Maradona any day of the week.
Pfoe van Basten and Best over the likes of puskas, eusebio, Cristiano R, thats a bold statement. I am a huge admirer of both of them but i don’t think this is an honest assesment
I respect you mate, so please withdraw that it is not an honest assessment, and I won't hold it against you! I'm not dishonest though, you know? Thanks, no hard feelings!