Greatest European footballers In football history

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Oct 24, 2018.

?

Who are your favourite European legends

Poll closed Jul 20, 2021.
  1. Zinedine Zidane

    11 vote(s)
    21.2%
  2. Marco Van Basten

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
  3. Roberto Baggio

    8 vote(s)
    15.4%
  4. Johan Cruyff

    27 vote(s)
    51.9%
  5. Cristiano Ronaldo

    11 vote(s)
    21.2%
  6. Micheal laudrup

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
  7. Michel Platini

    10 vote(s)
    19.2%
  8. der Kaiser

    6 vote(s)
    11.5%
  9. Gerd Muller

    6 vote(s)
    11.5%
  10. George best

    4 vote(s)
    7.7%
  11. Dejan savicevic

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Xavi Hernandez

    7 vote(s)
    13.5%
  13. Thierry Henry

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It is just my opinion based on things I have read over time. I can't find the sources now but I have read a number of things insinuating he was seen as the best continental player.

    My impression is he was the star or best player for Sparta and the Czechs. Sparta had the famous undefeated run from 18-22 where they played some of the other best European teams and beat them including Barcelona, Nurnberg, and Celtic. Then he persisted all the way through the decade and was one of Sparta best players winning the 27 Mitropa Cup and making it to the final in 1930. With the Czechs they had the best team at the 1920 Olympics and he was one fo the best players, he was also one of the best players in the 24 Olympics despite the less stellar performance from the Czechs. He was a constant for the national team who played a big scheduale and in years like 1927 the Czechs were going undefeated beating all their continental rivals.

    What other continental players had this type of resume in the 1920s?

    Orth has the reputation but he and that entire Hungary generation puzzle me. You look at people who follow Hungarian football and are familiar with its history and they but tons of players from this generation in their all time teams (Orth Braun, Fogel etc) but the national team had poor results all through the early 1920s. Samiter might be another possibility but I similarly have more question marks about him than Pesek. He misses a fair number of internationals, there are seasons where he is not called up at all despite supposedly being in his prime.

    Basically of the players who have a reputation that implies they were one of the best continental players of the 20s, Pesek's resume appears to hold up the best upon deeper inspection. If you are willing to try to rank them you have to put them in some order and I would put Pesek first. Most longevity, most well tested with the national team and Sparta challenging themselves abroad in the early 20s and in the Mitropa cup in the late 20s etc.

    Orth and Samiter both are more shrouded in mystery, club legends but I do not see where they thoroughly proved themselves outside that stage.

    I guess the real competitor in my mind with Pesek for the best continental player of the 20s is probably Zamora.
     
    Perú FC and comme repped this.
  2. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    To Cristiano Ronaldo score 1.7 - 2 Goals per match playing for PSG, in mind that he scored around 39% of all Madrid goals in the 2009-2018 period, PSG need to score 4.3 to 5 Goals per match.
    With Neymar on the field they score around 3.4, without Neymar they score around 2.3 if I'm not wrong, the average of PSG in the last 10-years is around 2. Good luck! lol

    The only clubs in the last 10 years that had the proper plataform (qualitiy and level of opponents) for Ronaldo scoring 1GPG per match is Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern... or Benfica, Ajax or Porto where they often score over 3+GPG against Lithuania level teams. lol
     
  3. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    I'm really doubtfull that Messi outscore Ronaldo in overall goals and in UCL goals.

    Ronaldo will play until Messi retire.
    Plus Messi don't care much about stats.

    Both will score +800 official goals. It's unbeliveable :)
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #429 carlito86, Sep 12, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    Question:
    Where has this recent obsession with Lithuania come from?
    Twice you mentioned them randomly
    Sure they are not a world class outfit(131 ranked by ELO)

    Are they worse then Botafogo Ribeirão Preto( 'ranked' 2500~ in the world)
    http://pele.m-qp-m.us/english/pele_statistics.shtml

    Or the brazilian airforce (the pilot was in goal)
    http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html
     
  5. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Those are dive Carlito. I don't know you might say referee allowed it so it's a goal. But this is what drawing a foul typically looks like

    :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    131º counting only national teams at the level of French Guiana. lol
    https://www.eloratings.net/

    Botafogo SP ranked 2500 where? Lol... You're making it up, there is no Elo ranking for Brazilian clubs. Btw, Botafogo-SP is a club of the second division of Brazil, but this year they still beat the current second place in the BR serie A Santos.


    https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Regions/31/Tournaments/95/Brazil-Brasileirão

    Pelé played many friendlies yes, but they are not official and he indeed played against many top European teams as well and playing with Santos (not a superteam like Real Madrid or Barcelona) and got ~1GPG.



    Point that you can't argue against is that only Barcelona, Madrid and Bayern in the last 10 years had the plataform to Ronaldo score his 1GPG average... with Portugual (TOP7 ranked) his expected Goals Involved (xGI) against top opponents and big stage is not really impressive (the same with Messi);

     
  7. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Ok, after the previous explanation...

    I think their claims are very close:

    Gerd Müller

    1966-67 Top 23 (21 years old)
    1967-68 Honorable Mention (22 years old)
    1968-69 Top 23, 5th (contender) (23 years old)
    1969-70 Top 23, 1st (podium) (24 years old)
    1970-71 Top 23 (25 years old)
    1971-72 Top 23, 3rd (podium) (26 years old)
    1972-73 Top 23, 3rd (podium) (27 years old)
    1973-74 Top 23, 4th (contender) (28 years old)
    1974-75 Honorable Mention (29 years old)
    1975-76 Honorable Mention (30 years old)
    1976-77 Honorable Mention (31 years old)
    1977-78 Honorable Mention (32 years old)

    His short formula for me would be: 7+5 (1st + 3rdx2 + 4th + 5th)

    Marco van Basten

    1983-84 Honorable Mention (19 years old)
    1984-85 Top 23 (20 years old)
    1985-86 Top 23 (21 years old)
    1986-87 Top 23 (22 years old)
    1987-88 Top 23, 6th (contender) (23 years old)
    1988-89 Top 23, 1st (podium) (24 years old)
    1989-90 Top 23, 4th (contender) (25 years old)
    1991-92 Top 23, 1st (podium) (26 years old)
    1992-93 Honorable Mention (27 years old)

    His short formula for me would be: 7+2 (1stx2 + 4th + 6th)

    There are several arguments that could be peripheral and important for me, as can be seen in a certain difference in favor of the consistency of Gerd Müller due, basically, to the abrupt cut of Marco van Basten's career.

    I think the German striker had exceptional competition in 1971-72 and 1972-73 (Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Netzer...), while I think the Dutch could have a higher evaluation in 1987-88 for his phenomenal European Championship in Germany, although after very low activity with AC Milan.

    On the other hand, at a general glance I cannot ignore what I consider a more refined technical level of van Basten, his great skill set and ball control, what I think can balance somewhat the longevity's point.
     
    PDG1978 and carlito86 repped this.
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #433 PuckVanHeel, Sep 12, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    What is it for nonsense that Muller gets ranked ahead of Cruijff, his importance and his achievements for 1968-69? Meanwhile, how is MvB not at 'contender' level for 1986-87 while winning and deciding the Cup Winners Cup? The Onze Mondial readers had him as high as 2nd place. There is an argument he was a better player before his injuries (October 1986).

    BS (not nearly as bad as your 300% downgrade of 1997-98 though)
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    #434 Perú FC, Sep 12, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    I'm not sure who you mean by "them" (Müller and van Basten?).

    My raw evaluation about him would be:

    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge

    1977-78 Honorable Mention (22 years old)
    1978-79 Top 23 (23 years old)
    1979-80 Top 23, 3rd (podium) (24 years old)
    1980-81 Top 23, 3rd (podium) (25 years old)
    1981-82 Top 23 (26 years old)
    1982-83 Top 23 (27 years old)
    1983-84 Top 23 (28 years old)
    1984-85 Honorable Mention (29 years old)

    His short formula for me would be: 6+2 (3rdx2)

    I think Rummenigge reached a high level (in 1979-80 and 1980-81 he had a huge competition in this evaluation: Zico and Maradona, but surely he was the best European footballer), however, at this comparative level I think he has a disadvantage due to his physical problems since his departure to Serie A to lengthen his consistency.

    Technically and physically well, a great player.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What is so technically 'great' about this? Not exactly your second Ozil or Scholl, or the second George Best.



    Anyway, I'm away now from this thread for a few days.
     
  11. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    To be honest, I think it's particularly difficult to evaluate the goalkeepers.

    I should start by mentioning that I think Gordon Banks could be usually a bit overrated (perhaps to be one of the English heroes of the conquest of their only World Cup and his famous save against Pelé in 1970). I don't think why exactly he usually appears automatically in the dome of the very best goalkeepers of all-time seen from a consistency perspective and, at least in my evaluation system, he's behind Peter Shilton, who, from what I noticed, influenced about his departure from Leicester City when he should be at the peak of his career.

    Don't get me wrong, surely he was a reliable goalkeeper and must have had merit to win prizes like 6 FIFA Goalkeeper of the Year awards or the FWA Footballer of the Year in 1972, but it's hard to me to see great performance spikes on him (from what I've been able to see) and I suspect he could win several by "inertia".

    For that reason it doesn't suprise me now that in his lists @Tom Stevens only named him twice (an honorable mention in 1965-66 and an inclusion in 1969-70) and @comme ranked him behind Shilton in 2009.

    Of course, it would be interesting to see a different perspective.

    As I mentioned, I have not evaluated in detail since 1999 yet, so I'm not so sure about Kahn, Casillas and Neuer. I think Manuel Neuer may be one of the goalkeepers with the most polished technique in history, but I would not go ahead until reviewing his longevity until today, while I have my very particular doubts about Íker Casillas.

    That all leaves me to Dino Zoff and Peter Schmeichel. I suppose that between them I could not be very sure about one over another. I think Zoff is the safest option in terms of consistency and Schmeichel looks more spectacular (his compilation are the most amazing), but what I have noticed is that in the season by season perspective "The Great Dane" may not be as favored as when seen in general (I commented and asked about it in the Worldwide Ballon d'Or's thread, what could be the reason why Schmeichel was chosen only once in the PFA Team of the Year (1992-93) during the 1990's despite his dominant fame as the greatest goalkeeper of the 1990's? (Nigel Martyn seems more favored)).

    These are my evaluations for both:

    Dino Zoff

    1967-68 Honorable Mention (26 years old)
    1968-69 Honorable Mention (27 years old)
    1971-72 Honorable Mention (30 years old)
    1972-73 Top 23, 4th (contender) (31 years old)
    1973-74 Honorable Mention (32 years old)
    1974-75 Top 23 (33 years old)
    1975-76 Honorable Mention (34 years old)
    1976-77 Top 23 (35 years old)
    1977-78 Honorable Mention (36 years old)
    1979-80 Honorable Mention (38 years old)
    1981-82 Top 23 (40 years old)

    His short formula for me would be: 4+7 (4th)

    Peter Schmeichel

    1991-92 Top 23 (28 years old)
    1992-93 Top 23 (29 years old)
    1993-94 Honorable Mention (30 years old)
    1994-95 Honorable Mention (31 years old)
    1995-96 Top 23 (32 years old)
    1996-97 Honorable Mention (32 years old)
    1997-98 Honorable Mention (33 years old)
    1998-99 I'm not sure

    His short formula for me would be: 3+4
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    In terms of spectacular and get you out of your seat saves barthez was unmatched from 98-00
    Technically in another league to neuer who did a few skills in the penalty area and became libero+keeper lol

    Barthez was in fact skilled enough to be a outfield player and played as a winger for Manchester United in a pre season friendly
    https://www.planetfootball.com/nost...abien-barthez-played-on-the-wing-for-man-utd/

    SAF even said he was more technical than Gary neville and this isn't a joke or exaggeration

    It completely baffles me how a keeper who won the European cup as a 21 year old starter and the golden glove at the world cup (with one of the least conceded goals ever) isnt given consideration as a legendary prime



    Sure he had some/many spectacular fails after 00/01 but other players who were average for long periods as George Best and Ronaldinho are exempted
     
    Perú FC and babaorum repped this.
  13. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    If we're going with saves, I don't see how Barthez highlights are better than someone like De Gea or Oblak.
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #439 carlito86, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    Neither one of oblak,courtois or de gea even sniffed this level

    His saves came in the context of great achievements (should weigh more from a historical perspective)
    There is also the small issue of aesthetic value
    There is just something more remarkable about the 'small guy' having insane reflexes and reaching balls he has no right to
    Due to his small stature He also lacked the presence of a Schmeichel,kahn or neuer

    Despite these physical limitations he was regarded for a short period as the best in the world
    And his individual and collective achievements back that up

    Outside of thuram and zizou I don't think any player was more important to the 98-00 generation

    Edit:
    There are saves and there are saves

    This is as great as any goal I don't care who the player is
    As 'genius' as any piece off skill by Maradona, Ronaldinho, messi,anyone

    Re watch the 98 final when you can
    Lillian thuram and fabian barthez made prime R9 look like a pub player
    He came to Manchester United with a reputation as great as any keeper has had in football history

    On his CV was
    The world cup
    European championship
    European cup

    To mention de gea,oblak in the same breath is an insult
    Only cassilas and Buffon can compare from recent times
     
  15. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    First of all, the saves in the highlights were not all, or even mostly from the most significant games.

    Why does historical context matter at all for reflex saves? Why is a superb save in a World Cup more impessive than a superb save in a league? Reflex saves, by definition, require no forethought. Pressure of the occasion plays no role. Reflex saves are a contest almost purely of skill and athleticism.

    Smaller lanky GKs actually have an advantage in making reflex saves, as they have superior agility and mobility. Casillas is another example. Physically, it's more impressive seeing someone like Oliver Kahn making reflex saves than Casillas.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Just talking of De Gea, and not with any disrespect intended to him (the saves thing is rightly a positive) but at this point if we're just going with 'blunders' I wonder whether Barthez would really be worse off than him?

    It's interesting because De Gea has had several seasons where he has been deemed United's best player in recent years, but at the same time for Spain and United combined he's had quite a few errors (compared to other contenders for great goalkeepers I'd think certainly, not to say all of them didn't have a few at some stage).
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm still kind of feeling Trevor Francis would be an outside contender among great European players (perhaps within a top 200 feasibly enough).

    This game, at the end of his Forest career, gives an idea about his peak level I think:


    And for peak impact, it doesn't get a lot better than this I suppose:
    http://rovesciatavolante.blogspot.com/2018/06/1979-finale-nottingham-forest-malmoe-1-0.html

    Great ratings initially for Sampdoria. Did pretty well in Wc1982. Was very good as striker, support striker, winger, even central/attacking midfielder. Notable from a young age (although watching England vs Netherlands in 1977 his level on that day doesn't seem a patch on Cruyff's in terms of quality/class it's probably fair to say, but maybe he wasn't showing his best and he probably kept on improving in general at Birmingham judging by PFA Team of the Year for example...maybe helped/inspired by seeing Cruyff on the same pitch even!).
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    One last thing:

    World Soccer also had him as #3 worldwide for 1987. He is not a contender?

    It is again the double handicap in full glory. The handicap and time lag back then, and the downgrade machines many years later. Just as for 1997-98. Rarely or never I have seen the opposite.

    I'd also say he did enough for a honorable mention in 1990-91 (as lone attacker up front), but since that case will fall on deaf ears anyway I leave it here.
     
  19. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    No doubt, I think his form since World Cup 2018 has been poor by his standards. Probably not even been top 5 in the world for at least 12 months, when he was contender for no.1 for a few years running.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    How would you place him among his own generation? (1975-1985?) That is a proper start.

    If you like I can show to you my research for why I think MvB has to be among the honorable mentions for 1990-91.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I see what you mean in terms of doing it with even numbers from each generation (or close to it). Perhaps I was falling back into my old mentality (which I'd not used on this thread obviously when specifically trying a list to match Tom's allocations by era), of trying to compare the player qualities and thinking "I'm not sure there will have been 200 better Europeans" on that basis.

    In his own position/role (or one of them!), these I'd have ahead (plus eg Cruyff but if allocating to one time period he'd be going in an earlier one of course, and was certainly not of Francis's generation age wise; Rensenbrink's window would be the previous one too I suppose, and likewise Rep who'd be a 'maybe better' case perhaps):
    Dalglish
    Rummenigge (skill wise maybe this isn't so clear; either when comparing both on a 'below average' day (perhaps Rummenigge could seem the more average even?) in that respect or both on a 'very good' day (but perhaps Rummenigge at his most fluent and connecting well with acroabtic attempts etc would still seem the better here?), but overall effectiveness wise and career wise too I think so)
    Susic?
    Littbarski?
    Keegan (but I would still feel it is closer than might be assumed prime to prime - maybe that video can even add weight to that idea but Keegan was past his physical best I suppose even though having a successful time at Southampton)

    Perhaps also Rocheteau for example, but again maybe it's not so clear-cut.

    Some people might put these on par or above maybe (but I guess a minority)
    Woodcock
    Torbjorn Nilsson (Krokko for example did I remember!)

    That's off the top of my head though, so I could be missing various names.


    Yeah, I felt Peru FC had overall been fair in acknowledging Van Basten's technical qualities and also his claims to being top 23 material in his Ajax days. I'd not seen your response when I repped his post though, and I guess it doesn't signify complete agreement or something. As you know I was convinced enough by footage/reputation of Cruyff to even choose him as 1st for 1966/67 (to the best of my knowledge/info - obviously it's hard to be definitive about this kind of thing - and therefore would be hard to be definitive about using estimations like that for an overall list, but I do see where Peru FC is coming from and I guess comme has followed a similar idea for relatively recent years with his 'best players of X seasons' threads, which he said will probably lead to an upgrading of Bergkamp for example).
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Paolo Rossi would be another I'd not mentioned of course.

    I don't think I'd rate Bettega, Causio or Conti ahead of Francis though.

    Ceulemans could be another if considering him to fit in the 'similar role' bracket I guess.

    Then outside of his role others such as Scirea could be added. So top 20 of his generation could be a touch and go call maybe? I'd think he'd at least be in the discussion for that sort of range though anyway personally (if restricting it to Europeans certainly).
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Simonsen another who could be probably/possibly ahead I think (I'd lean more towards probably, but again I'd not necessarily think there was a huge chasm between them ability/effectiveness wise prime to prime).
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Historical concensus would certainly seem to include Blokhin as better/greater too I'd think (I wouldn't go so far as to say I definitely disagree and maybe I don't disagree at all). Krankl possibly, because he might've been the better striker and that might trump being the more versatile player? Fischer on the same basis I'd say would be unlikely for me though. And there were some talented Hungarians and also Czechs in that era but I'm not sure they'd be better than Francis (and I don't think Ballon d'Or results would suggest it either....but then they wouldn't for Torbjorn Nilsson as Krokko was pointing out).

    I suppose comparing outright midfielders and defenders is harder anyway, but a top 20 would normally contain a spread among positions to an extent by default. It would come down to personal perception (or agreed consensus) I suppose anyway - I might say yes Hoddle was better and maybe Antognoni too, however I'm not sure Souness was and maybe not Brady either. Others could completely switch that around I'm sure potentially! I do think Francis's fame at the time was greater than in retrospect though probably (not only because he was chosen for the Only Fools and Horses theme tune line of "Trevor Francis tracksuits from mush in Shepherd's Bush" lol!).

    (0:16)
     
    carlito86, PuckVanHeel and wm442433 repped this.
  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Sorry, that wasn't very coherent as an answer lol, but I guess I didn't expect the question (which was of course completely logical/reasonable from Puck).

    I suppose take out Littbarski (moving to 80-90) but replace with Boniek perhaps, and add in eg Platini and also Breitner (especially with an eye on representing various positions well...and then maybe the aforementioned Bossis comes into it too even?) and indeed it's touch and go for top 20 European of that particular window for Francis (other Forest team-mates Robertson and Shilton are in the equation too of course).

    Overall, more likely a top 200 European on the basis of literally comparing/valuing all the players skillsets and capabilities, than when making a historical representation of European football era by era (in which case less than 20 names from that period would be included - maybe less than 10?).

    But yeah I just felt his name is not as famous now as it was, and that the video was a good illustration of his qualities (as biased as I may be towards those who played for Forest, especially if they scored a winning European Cup Final goal and put in arguably a MOTM display on the day, plus played a big part in the second European Cup win although not being able to play the Final...which I still feel is one reason Forest didn't seem great from a footballing perspective that day, not to downplay Hamburg too much).
     

Share This Page