Greatest European footballers In football history

Yeah, it is possible to say R9 had maybe not as many possessions in a match, receiving the ball in the best zone, or that his team was equally dominant resulting in tired opponents, not as many options or favorable starting position to do the same, but like I said I agree with you R9 didn't do a dribbling goal against the better sort of teams for club and country, Valencia aside but that was more running and speeding than dribbling I suppose.

That's somewhat of a differentiator with all the other Serie A Ballon d'Or winners of the 1990s (MvB, Baggio, Weah, and even Zidane)... nevertheless Ronaldo Luis made *clearly* more of a sustained difference for his teams than at least two of this list...

 

Good impression (minus the 'errors') of it here between 3:14 and 6:06



What they mention: 30 times to opponents half for Sammer, 4 for Matthaus. 68 touches of the ball by Sammer, 65 by Matthaus.

18 duels for the ball engaged by Sammer, won 9 and lost 9. 21 duels engaged by Matthaus, won 14 and lost 7 duels.

Of course the latter had the assist (one of four in the season; his best effort from 1994 onward), with a good control and finish by Scholl, arguably the most technically accomplished player on the pitch. The commentator says at that scene: "he had more luck" [sic].

 

Yeah, I don't see how anyone can argue against what Ronaldo did in the early 2010s with Madrid. The only valid "criticism" might have been "but Messi was better".

I watched about 70-80% of the games (league and UCL mainly) of both players during that period and I don't think the world has been this spoiled for two players of this quality in a very long time (maybe late 60s-early70s when both Pele and Cruyff were playing at the same time?)

What that period taught me more than anything was how ridiculous the "one-man army" narrative was. If performances like the ones Messi and Ronaldo put in during that period couldn't carry teams, then no one can. Not over a season, at least. No amount of individual brilliance can overcome team deficit over a long period of time.

I think the last few years have only confirmed this belief. What Messi has been doing for Barcelona without being able to carry them to the UCL title, for example.

 

I suppose that in order to answer properly I would have to display my criteria in more detail (explaining it could be complex for me, but I will try).

I obviously do not think there is a magic formula for this, but I think it is possible to develop a structure for more or less organized ideas and avoid a rain of them, especially in such a broad spectrum (so many players so different from each other in so many years (it's a whole century since 1920) in so different ages... too many names for all kind of comparisons that generate more doubts than certainties).

The first matter was to define what we compare, if a single version of each player (almost always the best) or careers, with their ups and downs, so I've thought about how to represent all of them in a line of consistency. When I saw the exercise that @Tom Stevens did about choosing the 23 best players of each season individually, it seemed to me that this could be a good parameter for this first item, especially considering that it is also possible to identify a tentative podium, close contenders to that podium and add a list of honorable mentions, all data that can be quantified organizedly.

I think this method also solves some somewhat diffuse concepts about peaks of performance (there is no implicit agreement on how many years to take into account or on what level a margin should be established), performances in specific tournaments (these would already be included in the analysis of the season to which they belong and would influence the result in it, in addition to what was done at club level and internationally would already be properly mixed), what portion to take exactly of each career (many think about 3 or 5 better seasons/years, others in everything, even trying to qualify mediocre periods) and how would his level compared to define his class/category each time (in this way every season in which it may be possible the player can integrate at least a list of honorable mentions would count and depend not on the comparison of general ideas, but on the comparison of his level with respect to that of all the others who stood out in each season and a number of them more or less determined).

Due to that utility, I have been for a few years around that exercise, I compiled it to be able to quantify its data and I'm working on its basis (I have been making some modifications for my own purposes, but the compilation in my blog it's the exact copy of Tom's work from 1920 to 1994) to be able to create comparative maps for a first step.

In this way, for example, this is how the evaluation of my 1st, Johan Cruyff, would be:

Johan Cruyff

1965-66 Honorable Mention (19 years old)
1966-67 Top 23 (20 years old)
1967-68 Top 23 (21 years old)
1968-69 Top 23, 6th (contender) (22 years old)
1969-70 Top 23 (23 years old)
1970-71 Top 23, 1st (podium) (24 years old)
1971-72 Top 23, 1st (podium) (25 years old)
1972-73 Top 23, 1st (podium) (26 years old)
1973-74 Top 23, 1st (podium) (27 years old)
1974-75 Top 23 (28 years old)
1975-76 Top 23 (29 years old)
1976-77 Top 23, 1st (podium) (30 years old)
1983-84 Top 23 (37 years old)

The short formula for me would be: 12+1 (1stx5 + 6th)

This is how the evaluation of my 50th, Dragan Dzajic, would be:

Dragan Dzajic

1966-67 Honorable Mention (21 years old)
1967-68 Top 23, 4th (contender) (22 years old)
1968-69 Honorable Mention (23 years old)
1969-70 Top 23 (24 years old)
1970-71 Top 23 (25 years old)
1971-72 Top 23 (26 years old)
1972-73 Honorable Mention (27 years old)
1975-76 Top 23 (30 years old)

The short formula for me would be: 5+3 (4th)

After explaining that, it is not that I take calculations and then compare them as if they were mathematical formulas because I'm aware that there are variables that have not been included. One of the main ones is that since the evaluations show results according to their own competition in a season, they are subject to the competitive level of each period and certainly there are fluctuations that can be noticed in an overview.

For example, Europe's top competitive level in the 1940's evidently diminished and affected these results. One of the most affected among the most famous/prominent is Josef Bican, who although he had already shown himself as a prolific attacker in his native Austria in the 1930's, would group his best numbers in this exercise for what he did in Czechoslovakia in the 1940's. Although I think it makes sense to include him in 6 consecutive tops 23 from 1939 to 1944, it is possible that there is an inflation for macro numbers due to the steep decline in reported competition, so I would moderately doubt about his high results.

Josef Bican

1933-34 Top 23 (20 years old)
1937-38 Top 23, 5th (contender) (24 years old)
1938-39 Top 23 (25 years old)
1939-40 Top 23 (26 years old)
1940-41 Top 23 (27 years old)
1941-42 Top 23 (28 years old)
1942-43 Top 23 (29 years old)
1943-44 Top 23 (30 years old)
1945-46 Honorable Mention (32 years old)
1946-47 Top 23 (33 years old)

The short formula for me would be: 9+1 (5th), but due to the circumstances of his case I'd probably degrade him 1 or 2 steps (not so many more).

I have a similar doubt about Valentino Mazzola, to be honest, but as far as I know the Italian League was not so affected at that level in terms of competitiveness (something I have questioned about an earlier response in this thread).

On the other hand, I think that not always a 1st place in one year was so brilliant as one in another (as about any other position in a podium, contention or inclusion in a top 23), so in the end I give my perceptions some scope to affect some comparisons in each case, but basically I think I can start from that base.

I must say that I have not finished making those selections by season (I'm in 1999), so for the players of this century I have actually made projections of which I'm not completely sure yet (Cristiano Ronaldo, Zinedine Zidane, Gianluigi Buffon, Thierry Henry, Xavi, Andrés Iniesta and Zlatan Ibrahimovic and others than don't seem far away like Edwin van der Sar, Íker Casillas, Manuel Neuer, Alessandro Nesta, Fabio Cannavaro, Lilian Thuram, Patrick Vieira, Steven Gerrard, Andrea Pirlo, Luka Modric, Frank Lampard, Pavel Nedved, Franck Ribéry, Eden Hazard, Ryan Giggs, Arjen Robben, Francesco Totti, Alessandro Del Piero, Raúl, David Villa, Andriy Shevchenko, Ruud van Nistelrooy...).

Of course, I do not infer that I'm sure of all the data. There are many things that I am assuming and of which I'm relying on what was done by Tom or other sources, so there is always the possibility of adjusting many things.

In fact, I have another perspective that contradicts myself which refers to those who I think are the 9 best players of all-time (not only European) which is based on what I think is the most complex skill/quality of a footballer, the ability of being and exceptional playmaker creating, organizing and controlling the rhythm of a whole system. In that group I consider Franz Beckenbauer, but not Cristiano Ronaldo, so I have a conflict that may not mean there is an error in my criteria, just different ways to compare all of them.

Explained all this, shortly I can answer the following questions.

 

Just for interest, here is in effect the top 50 Europeans (a subset of the top 100 overall which included 71 we'd classify as Europeans - Rivera was 52nd European for example, just ahead of Florian Albert) from the All-Time players list in the 'All-Time World Cup' book of David Brooks written/published in 2001/2002 - I guess there is the sort of conflict Peru FC mentions for him too since he was writing a book imagining all-time games (as we have been doing recently of course!) with each player in prime form I suppose theoretically, but he does label the list 'Greatest Players' and he does indicate Van Basten for example is further down than he might have been without the injury problems, so he must be taking account of the full career more for his list and he does go with a good and fairly even spread era wise even if it could be he literally sees several earlier era players as comparable to later stars anyway: as you can see I'm posting it despite that it doesn't include various names I'd have been putting in myself lol!

1) Franz Beckenbauer
2) Johan Cruyff
3) Ferenc Puskas
4) George Best
5) Michel Platini
6) Bobby Charlton
7) Lev Yashin
8) Gerd Muller
9) Eusebio
10) Bobby Moore
11) Johan Neeskens
12) Lothar Matthaus
13) Franco Baresi
14) Zinedine Zidane
15) Stanley Matthews
16) Paolo Maldini
17) Giussepe Meazza
18) Marco van Basten
19) Ruud Gullit
20) Denis Law
21) Matthias Sindelar
22) Marcel Desailly
23) Gordon Banks
24) Ernst Ocwirk
25) Helmut Rahn
26) Silvio Piola
27) Giacinto Facchetti
28) Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
29) Dino Zoff
30) Kazimierz Deyna
31) Gheorghe Hagi
32) Francisco Gento
33) Albert Shesternyov
34) Sandor Kocsis
35) Gunnar Nordahl
36) Ricardo Zamora
37) Raymond Kopa
38) Roberto Baggio
39) Germano
40) Jozsef Bozsik
41) Luis Figo
42) Frank Rijkaard
43) Jurgen Klinsmann
44) Luis Suarez
45) Kenny Dalglish
46) Dragoslav Sekularec
47) Mario Coluna
48) Wolfgang Overath
49) Ruud Krol
50) Fritz Walter

 

Does this make sense though? Why is he only 6th in 1969 and suddenly 1st in 1971? What happened? What more should he have done in 1969? Is 6 goals and 6 assists in the European cup, the pass to the penalty against AC Milan (conceded 4 goals all season as he home playing team) not enough? What did Maradona in 1979 that he didn't?

As for the Barcelona years: the enormous statistical influence doesn't lie (before and after him; with and without), as well as the consistency in results (multiple semi finals in Europe, 2nd places in the league) and various great games for Orange against top tier and 2nd tier teams. Various great goals too.

What you might say - if you want to nitpick - is he maybe lacked a certain finesse. In carlito86's bombardment there is not an example of a dribble goal (whatever) against a top class team (like Ronaldo Luis, unlike the other 90s Serie A winners).

Cristiano was somewhat lucky he entered the league exactly at the moment the financial crisis hit every team hard below the top two, while the top two themselves became super stacked teams. Another sign of this finesse is the low amount of through-balls, despite being among the players who loses the ball more than anyone (= he gets the ball if he wants it).

Although I think it is supplanted by his capacity to evolve, and his general impact (for Madrid, not Juventus so far), some like Peru FC would also say he wasn't the player to control games or alter the pace of it.

Until 2012 he was maybe not a great performer for the national side.

Atletico Madrid at their peak (with the desired personnel) was able to show they could shut down and overcome Ronaldo (and Messi too) at their prime, which is partly sign of great quality and partly a matter of tactics. Mark van Bommel said in 2012 at Milan they thought Messi wouldn't score more than 30 in the league (which is still a lot!), and Cristiano his recent spell at Juventus shows there is maybe something into that. 16 non-penalty goals in 31 games at 2018-19 (I thought 19, but it is 16) vs 23 in 27 in 2017-18 for Real Madrid. Van Bommel said it though before it was clear Juventus had run away from the rest. He also believed Cristiano merited the BdO in 2012 (for the Barcelona games etc.) and not 2013.

 

It's a slightly unusual list (also compared to other british lists of that time, the ones peterhrt posted for example) but interesting in 2002 Zidane was the youngest inclusion at that point. Thierry Henry not yet in (neither is Cantona or Bergkamp, and I feel the latter actually has a strong argument with his factual impact and class even visible in the Champions League as a veteran; and his various classy goals and assists against top teams in multiple tournaments) while his peers rated him highly in 2004.

You might find this podcast interesting, on which former players might do well or better today (or worse):
https://soundcloud.com/user-882537408/spm-145-time-warping-past-players-into-the-present
It starts at 14:30. Hoddle gets mentioned, but also Maradona, Best and Cruijff of course.

 

Yeah, you're right that does sound like something I'd be interested to listen to so I'll try and do that sometime.

Bergkamp was in his All-Time Netherlands squad, and was getting game time though not as a regular starter, in his imagined All-Time World Cup. He did some player vs player comparisons for line-ups in some games and for example called it even between Beckham (not in his overall greatest 100 list) and Schuster (in that list) and the impression is Bergkamp is probably one he'd see on the verge of being in the list so roughly top 75 European, with a career ongoing (depending on when the book was finalised maybe he was in a great spell of form, assisting goals on the way to a second Arsenal double at the time).

Henry isn't mentioned, but Cantona in the squad write-up for France is described as being of the 'highest class' along with Papin, but though I'd need to check I think his involvement in the imagined games is less than Bergkamp's (Bergkamp is used as one of 3 forwards in a 4-3-3, or sometimes coming on as sub as one of the midfielders it seems if I remember correctly).

 

Thanks. Yes I see it now. Schuster was the 71th European to round off the top 100 and he sees a parity with Beckham. He has also Van Hanegem in his all-time top 100.

There is a documentary on youtube where it's mentioned there was a real risk the Premier League became a one team league. Despite never winning the Champions League, I think the overall evidence is so overwhelming that I place him #3 to #9 of his country. For #10 I have about a dozen options or so. I can present the case but think him and Henry are close.

 

Yes, I would tend to think so too, almost "whichever way we look at it too", but of course others can disagree in one direction or the other.

I think Bergkamp had the better International career by the way, but Henry's case could be one of those where the timing was never perfect when the International tournaments came around, for him to shine the most (but can we say about 2004 "why shouldn't it have been that time?" and for example Bergkamp didn't have the best build-up to WC 1998 fitness wise having been injured at the end of the season and carrying that issue into the WC a little bit too I think).

 

That international career thing is imho definitely the case. Once topscorer, two times top assister in a major tournament, among the highest chance creators in the european championships (with Deco, Zidane). Against the top class teams as well (Germany 1992, Brazil 1994, England 1996, Argentina 1998, France 2000). At the age of 31 he ranked very well in the OPTA Index for euro 2000 despite not scoring a goal; he also scored a great goal against the great French backline obviously in 1997 (first goal they conceded in 6 matches). Was at the long-list for the team of the tournament in 1992, 1994, 1998 and 2000.

You can also have your ideas about the continental career. Thierry Henry had his participation for three continental finals; Bergkamp in six (then I include the 2000 UEFA Cup final for Henry where he was already scoring well and Bergkamp 4 non-penalty goals plus 6 assists or so; the 2006CL campaign where Bergkamp had some vital contributions still, including a necessary injury time winner). Combine this with the vast difference in performance when he couldn't play, and unbeaten in the six european away matches post-1994 which includes teams as Barcelona, and yeah there is something there too. Henry did have a higher peak in the Champions League (Bergkamp was however 29 when he first got to play in the EC/CL) very arguably, but even then still a dozen or so wonderful assists and moments there with top class grades by e.g. kicker (against defenders like Nesta, Thuram, Lucio).

It's not easy but I'd have them close and both among the top of their generation (Henry actually #1 for 2000 - 2010, Bergkamp top three or top five worldwide for 1990 - 2000 which I see overall as the more stacked group I think with also Maldini in the mix - funny trivia: he was the most used player by Wenger during his entire spell).

edit: was wondering indeed whether Henry was already mentioned by that point (in 2002).

 

Not impossible by the way he will be overtaken:

"Ronaldo (34 years old) will undoubtedly increase his number of 93 goals even more in the coming years. The question is whether there is a footballer in this generation who can ever surpass him. It is not impossible.

Neymar (27 years, 61 goals) and Romelu Lukaku (26 years, 49 goals) have a long way to go, but they are on schedule. The Brazilian star is not yet the top scorer of his country. The PSG wing attacker still has to tolerate Pelé. The triple world champion scored 77 times in 92 international matches.

For comparison: when Ronaldo turned 27, he had "only" scored 32 times for the national team. In fact, his bizarre scoring series only started after that. Lionel Messi (32 years old, 68 goals) can no longer be expected to catch up with Ronaldo."
https://www.bndestem.nl/sport/wie-zijn-de-vijftig-voetballers-met-de-meeste-interlandgoals~ad6cb8d3


Neymar his total includes 'only' 8 penalties, he plays for Brazil and has still room to improve in the actual competitive matches (the quantity, the level of opponent). Lukaku has also a good support cast for the time being, and has a professional attitude in taking care of his body.

 

Weah has a dribble goal against Bayern Munich in the Champions League. Not once but twice. This is for starters.

As for the other mentioned players (+ Zidane): I've shown you that before and won't do again.

That Ronaldo Luis hasn't one: that's true. I said that.

He had one non-penalty goal and 1 assist in 5 games against Atletico Madrid in 2013-14.

That penalty he won (nice dive) was in the 120th minute with the game already over. It doesn't count.

The assist was in the 118th minute, with the game already done and Atletico weakened by fatigue and injury (Diego Costa).

End of debate. He was shut down. Period - and don't try a 'whataboutism' this time.

Cruijff returned to the Eredivisie when it was 2nd/3rd in the coefficients. Ajax was 5 points behind the leader halfway at his arrival, they won with 5 points on top. Don't be silly.

The press voted him deservedly player of the year for Los Angeles Aztecs, Washington Diplomats (with several good players there, also younger ones like Beardsley, Francis, Souness, Hugo Sanchez, Grobbelaar, Romerito, Cabanas) and then also Feyenoord. He still showed it against later winners Tottenham and Liverpool (among others) at the age of 36-37.

Respond if you like, but I won't respond again.

 

Pelé ended in 2º in 1972 and was elect the best South American in 1973 by El Mundo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_American_Footballer_of_the_Year#El_Mundo_award_(1971–1985)
If you count MLS then 1976 too.

Btw, I think Cristiano would score less Goals in the Italian League, mainly because best Italian teams aren't as strong as Real Madrid, even tho he could score 36 Goals like Higuian, but that is a outlier season and the league is different.

Instead of ~1GPG, I would guess he would score some 0.8 GPG. In the Bundesliga Cristiano playing for Bayern would score tho, probably 1.1-1.2 Goals per Game.

 

Was this actually merited or a lifetime achievement award? The trophy didn't exist (nor had it any status) during Pelé his prime.

That year he was outscored by several (non-famous) players in the Brasileiro and other competitions. Of course Pelé was not only about scoring, but teams were set up that way, it was his job.

This is what I mean with whataboutism: he was shut down by Atletico (and not as the only attacker) and you respond with the penalties in 1991-92.

Was Van Basten shut down by the top teams? No he wasn't at all, excluding the penalties. He had also 10 (or more) assists in the league

As for the penalties: a few of those were directly earned by himself and for others he gave the pass leading to it (or the header). Or where he himself forces the handball (good control!). Do you see that instant control @PDG1978 @Perú FC ?


I log off now for the day.

 

Bayern finished 6th in Bundesliga that season. Not really a famous squad back then

 

What year? In 1973 he was the topscorer of the Campeonato Paulista (Santos won the title) and scored 19 Goals in the Brazilian League (would be topscorer in many other seasons), the top scorer was Ramon with 21 Goals. Pelé has a lot of assists too, it was his job too. Plus he played many friendlies too, probably.

 

What has Eusebio and Portuguese League to do with the French League? Anyway wasn't that year that Eusebio scored a lot of penalties?

For start, Real Madrid was more dominant in La Liga (than PSG in Ligue 1) and more highscoring team than PSG as well as stronger in global scenary.
That's the problem you can't compare the average he had playing for Real Madrid playing for Juventus or PSG. Real Madrid was the perfect team for CR7 produce his numbers and of course playing against Lithuania's of life, ranked as 131.
Said that with Neymar behind him he would score more than with Sarabia or Pastore..