Greatest European footballers In football history

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Oct 24, 2018.

?

Who are your favourite European legends

Poll closed Jul 20, 2021.
  1. Zinedine Zidane

    11 vote(s)
    21.2%
  2. Marco Van Basten

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
  3. Roberto Baggio

    8 vote(s)
    15.4%
  4. Johan Cruyff

    27 vote(s)
    51.9%
  5. Cristiano Ronaldo

    11 vote(s)
    21.2%
  6. Micheal laudrup

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
  7. Michel Platini

    10 vote(s)
    19.2%
  8. der Kaiser

    6 vote(s)
    11.5%
  9. Gerd Muller

    6 vote(s)
    11.5%
  10. George best

    4 vote(s)
    7.7%
  11. Dejan savicevic

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Xavi Hernandez

    7 vote(s)
    13.5%
  13. Thierry Henry

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    #351 wm442433, Sep 5, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
    Ok no problem, it's a team sports for sure. Also about Rijkaard and Desailly, it's not the same balance between defensive and offensive abilities and they did not play with exactly the same teammates and coach... did play at different times yes. Rijkaard was very good defensively in 1988 as a CB then, it's true. As a midfielder I see him more like a #8-10 or "libero of midfield" when Desailly was a DM or #6-8 but most of all DM-DM/ #6-6. "stopper of midfield"? That's why I said "his little goal", but in a very similar way to Rijkaard, with energy, and in the context of a final too. Well, it is exactly the same goal in the 1-0 win over Benfica with Rijkaard than with Desailly for the 4th goal in the 4-0 against Barcelona.

    Nobody is unbeatable ofc but at least that's the impression Desailly gave over here in France I believe. He gave confidence as he was like the ultimate piece to lock it all defensively in that team imo (then the last wall is always the keeper ofc... and one of the first was Deschamps:D, good player too).
    We could not know what would happen to Ronaldo prior to the final but frankly, leaving this aside as we could not know and that was my feeling at least, my thought was like : if one defender in the world can stop Ronaldo, it's rather a good thing that he is French. And his name was Desailly. One would call it 'fanboyism' perhaps but was it really fully devoid of objectivity? I can't deny it had a bit to do with faith, however.
    Then, again it's true that about teammates and partnership, Desailly and Blanc were perfectly complementary, at the right moment, and that can't be easily recreated. The defense was complementary from the left to the right and from the right to left btw, the 4 players (let's enumerate it, Blanc-Desailly, Thuram-Blanc, Lizarazu-Desailly and even Thuram-Lizarazu. There was a great natural balance given their individual caracteristics but also as for what has to do with their mutual understanding, their solidarity; in sum, their intelligence. Remembering this give chills:)).


    oh, Barça were tired... tired of what? Tired of beating Eibar endlessly by 10-0? Here it's another story and I'm not sure we will agree too much. It's a complex question though and I doubt there's one truth. There's just the truth of this one final, though I'm not sure if Barça would have been able to win it if it was played three times, to tell my feeling - wether they were tired or not I might add. Tired of celebrating their season before it ended? Tired for they never saw the ball? We will not blame Desailly for he played on the best side still?

    It was my turn to :p. ;)
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    They were tired of only having two or three days rest, while the opponent had over a week. There is no doubt this is an important factor.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=HJ68BQAAQBAJ&lpg=PT77&dq=football three days recover 80% guardiola&hl=nl&pg=PT77#v=onepage&q=football three days recover 80% guardiola&f=false

    https://fifpro.org/news/study-only-two-recovery-days-is-unfair-play/en/

    http://microtraining.co/2018/11/18/...current-science-and-top-coaches-common-sense/

    Also important was the sudden change of the referee, a more lenient referee (the only time a referee change happened for a EC/CL final, at the request of Milan; Milan's domestic flirtation with match-fixing started around this time, as was revealed later) and the long grass and wobbly state of the pitch. Normally the grass is mowed but not this time - another sudden change of policy. It didn't suit Barcelona, and we don't see tall grass any more in today's major games. The pitch size also helped them I'd say.

    Five years later this happened: "Ferguson knew Bayern were worried about United’s width – they lobbied successfully to have the pitch made narrower, to the exact specifications of their own pitch in Munich", and it arguably helped because normally Bayern wins the match.

    Either way, the point was more that of all the final games Desailly played in his career, from Confederation Cup finals to the FA Cup final, from Supercup matches to Champions League finals, this goal for the 4-0 was the only time it happened in his career - that he "made the job" in your words (Rijkaard has some major assists from a center back position too btw, like the 1995 CL final for the winning goal, or euro 1992 semis when playing as center back). Desailly his national team goals against Azerbaijan, Norway and the fourth-rate team of Brazil also of a different category than Marius Tresor vs Germany (twice) and Brazil.
     
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  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid


    Great 2 part series with a panel of 'experts' offering a different perspective
    They also have a Gareth bale vs David Beckham comparison
    And.... Marco van Basten vs Jurgen Klinsmann:cautious:

    The usually bland Lothar matthues was actually humorous when asked about Klinsmann he said

    Franz Beckenbauer issued explicit instructions to his team in world cup 90 NOT to pass to ball to Klinsmann except if he was in the penalty area,
    For fear that Klinsmann would immediately loose possession or run it into the corner.
    He expressed admiration for Klinsmann winning mentality but he just couldnt play football(participate in build up/team play)
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I had forgotten about it but in the other final he played that year (the closest he got to winning a 'big' club trophy between 1996-2000) he was red carded as well. For stamping on Fuser in the Coppa Italia final. Two finals, two red cards.

    Let me conclude with the kind words though that purely as a single-minded stopper few - if any - were better. The stats and 'castrol/opta rating' for the 1998 World Cup shows that as well. The likes of Kluivert and Van Nistelrooij have commented that if he was focused on you as a striker, you could have an incredibly tough day (but just like any defender not impossible to score against of course).

    I'm luckily not the only one (lanman in 2004) who found his reading, anticipation and positioning sub-optimal many times (bit like a post-prime Kompany who aggressively went for balls).... For a part it's a question of what you value in a player or defender ('eternal' values as technique, brains), the other part are 'objective' facts as Desailly never receiving an ESM selection (crucially, a dozen of his 'forgotten' team-mates as Babayaro, Cudicini did at least once) and no clear signs of the sub-top clubs doing markedly better with him over a longer period of time (the success of Milan, Chelsea directly before him and directly after him; the win percentages better in the league and CL without him - compare this with Vidic for example), the low number of goals and assists for a midfielder/defender. Also the fact of Blanc being more undefeated for the national team than Desailly was in the golden period... (well... there were also other physical beasts around while the replacements for Blanc were scarcer I reckon?)

    So to cut the story short, while I'd have Blanc at #3 for his full career, Desailly will be around Cannavaro I reckon (#7 among FFT's names for the full portfolio, back catalog and repertoire).

    When I watched this match though, I thought he was more influential than the 'classy' and silky Redondo on the opposite end... not easy to give an exact ranking!
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes that are interesting series. Naturally there are points of contention or where you think o_O

    I'm maybe not entirely neutral here but felt Klinsmann was slightly overhyped in his time. Admittedly he did well in the World Cup (less so in euros; had about two great performances against top teams in major tournaments), and has one good and one great campaign in Europe (also at least a handful poor campaigns), he never scored more than 20 league goals. Only twice he scored over 25 goals across all competitions in a season.

    For a part that shows the goalscoring standards for a striker have gone up (in some seasons he was not too far away from the topscorer, once BuLi topscorer with 19 goals) but overall an 8th, 8th, 6th, 6th, 2nd and 5th place in the adidas sponsored Ballon d'Or feels excessive (makes him #2 over the entire 1990s decade). From time to time he did have a noticeable impact on his teams, but it feels like the voters appreciated a running nuclear rector more than the crafty, silky and brainy players. How?
     
  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #356 carlito86, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
    So far 50+ have given their vote and surprisingly only 1 has gone to George Best

    @PuckVanHeel
    Objectively and neutrally(if you can) 1967/68 aside do you think the prime of robben compares favourably to George Best 69-71?

    Best played for a 'worst' and ageing team during those years but he still maintained a world class return

    It's hard to watch a lot of full games of George Best but I feel his decision making could be inconsistent and at times pretty darn average
    I could be biased but I give a clear advantage to robben here especially his mature version 2012-15

    That's not to say best on his day(s) wasn't a mercurial talent

    superlatives don't even do him justice
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #357 PuckVanHeel, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
    I have a preference for Best but it's closer than some might think.

    George Best is usually regarded as the 3rd or 4th best player of his generation. Below Cruijff, Beckenbauer, Müller, but above someone like Rivelino.

    I think Robben can be around that region as well (3rd, 4th, 5th) based on his ability, his national team performances (against the big teams, and multiple tournaments) and his Champions League displays (where he is by grades apparently the 3rd best of KO stages). Like to a lesser extent George Best he also made evidently his teams better, by facts (Chelsea, Bayern most significantly - as shown before). While there are posters (Peru FC) who don't have him among the first 15, or others who think Rooney is greater (Titanlux), I think he can be around 4th or 5th too. Compared to Totti, Rooney, or 'I start 15 games' Neymar he was too often snubbed for the major honors.

    George Best like you say was a mercurial talent with the ball, and when having a complete free role he scored a great amount of goals for one of the best attacks of England. Although he never played in a tournament (couldn't 'flop' there either like bench warmer Di Stefano in 1962; or MvB with 0 goals and 2 assists in 4 World Cup games), Best has various great games for his national team where he shows fantastic ability.

    Over one or two seasons, though Best had more of a free role in everything he did, he is ahead. Over five seasons (the window I use) the comparison is a lot closer and over 10 seasons of course Robben has the advantage in terms of still being a match winner at the highest level.

    Overall a preference for Best.

    One other interesting and 'easier' comparison would be the magical Ronaldinho vs Robben imho. Let's start here with the fact Ronaldinho has only two World Cup goals in his career, and only 11 non-penalty goals in the Champions League. With a free role and vastly inferior defensive stats. Here more in the comparison to Xavi as Barcelona players.
     
  8. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Thanks for that.
    I've got another question : how does Varane compare to the likes of Tresor, Desailly and Blanc, according to you ?
     
  9. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    ...or Bossis, as I suppose there's a room for him.
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #360 carlito86, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
    I think best is closer to 3rd (he finished 9th I believe in the player of the century vote)
    Robben has a strong case for 3rd but isn't immediately thought of as such(there is xavi and to a lesser extent iniesta and ibrahimovic)

    Still this is only the perception and doesnt make it either right or wrong

    Another thing is Robben just isn't as marketable as Figo, George Best and other candidates for 3rd best of their respective generation

    This is a very easy comparison
    Over a one year period I'd give it to Ronaldinho
    Over 5 id give it to robben
    over 10 I'd also definitely give it to robben
    (like George Best 68 he also did decide a European cup final)

    Ronaldinho one of the 'greatest big game players ever' did not decide a single final between 2004-2007


    His direct competitor Thierry Henry also never scored in a single final during his career
    A small detail that shouldn't be overlooked when weighing their respective legacies
     
  11. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Ronaldinho is ranked higher than Robben in most lists... but I agree that Robben could be considered better (maybe?)... peak for peak I prefer Ronaldinho, Robben failed at Real Madrid and then becomes a super world class in the Bundesliga.

    Btw if use DBS Calcio to ranklng players (league form), Robben is above... specially if put World Class performances as >6.50 Media DBS in a TOP15 club or >7.25 Media DBS in a non TOP15 club.

    Robben MEDIA DBS over 6.50 (TOP15 club): 2009/2010, 2010/2011, 2013/2014, 2014/2015 and 2016/2017, 100 Matches
    http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaCa...omePlayer=Robben&dataNascitaPlayer=23-01-1984
    Ronaldinho MEDIA DBS over 6.50 (TOP15 club): 2003/2004 and 2005/2006 , 61 Matches
    http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaCalciatore.php?nomePlayer=Ronaldo de Assis Moreira&cognomePlayer=Ronaldinho&dataNascitaPlayer=21-03-1980

    To compare:
    Robben 5 seasons, Ronaldinho 2 seasons to compare Cristiano 8 seasons, Messi 10 seasons.

    It is not perfect, but can give you a idea.

    Plus CL and WC/Continental Cup needs to be analyzed apart. (idea.. the stats and ratings vs Elo TOP15 clubs and NTs).

    Level for Level in a TOP15 clubs (TOP15 clubs in Europe nowadays has a lot of world class talents), Robben Media DBS Ranking: 6.35, Cristiano 6.52, Messi 6.90

    Ribery with good ratings according DBS Calcio too: http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaCa...omePlayer=Ribery&dataNascitaPlayer=01-04-1983
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The DBS media ratings have different standards in different countries mate, so cross-comparison is not really valid I think.

    It is not the same media making all the ratings, but different publications from each host country (newspapers of Italy for Serie A, the English ones for Premier League etc etc). Maybe things change a bit over time too, but in general the Italian ratings are 'harsh' in comparison to especially Spanish ones I think. Sometimes marks that are not of of 10 (like Kicker ones from Germany) are converted to a scale out of 10 too, so really the only comparisons I think are between players in the same leagues - outside of that the pure numbers don't really allow for direct comparisons I think.
     
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  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He didn't fail there.

    Real Madrid has only 8 league titles the last 30 seasons and one of those were achieved with him as a starter, in the two seasons he played.

    He had a good 2009-10 pre-season (including goals like this against top teams) and that he left had more to do with a change of presidency than failing. More than anything else the change in presidency was the reason.

    Real Madrid without him on the pitch won 57% of the matches, lost 37%. With him they won 63% and lost only 25%. If you exclude the last 5 games of the 2008-09 season (which they just threw away, all losses) the percentage goes up to 68% wins and 18% losses with him playing. In the Champions League (small sample) it is 45% win with him (46% loss) and 40% wins without him.

    Tellingly, such positive effect also exists for Chelsea and Bayern.





    His numbers are not super spectacular for Real Madrid but he still scored or assisted against Barcelona (twice) and Valencia twice, back then the 3rd team of Spain.

    Again: a shame injuries ravaged his career, rhythm and technique.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, will try.

    That's a difficult case. Think I might not have a complete or fully sufficient picture for Bossis but will try later. For Varane I have my ideas.
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Just to clarify here (thanks for the reps already given anyway though): I'm not making comment about the Ronaldinho/Robben comparison really, or disagreeing with the general idea being expressed that Robben had more seasons within which he was very impressive than Ronaldinho in his career.

    I was just thinking if Tropeiro had got the wrong idea about how comparable the DBS ratings might be between different leagues, then it'd be helpful to let him know basically!
     
  16. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Yes, it is certainly more comparable with grades of the same league and in some leagues there are more variations than others, although in the end the DBS average is based on grade 6 I think

    Btw, I found it interesting how Ribery and Robben were close in general, whoscored rating had it the same. Both as starter ended very close.
    Robben 229 Matches rated, 7.86.
    Ribery 231 Matches, 7.81.
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    One thing that is possible (I'm not sure) is that you are looking at the DBS own calculated grades. I was talking about the media grades (taken from averages of several publications, or maybe just one for some leagues - maybe the Kicker/Germany ones indeed which as I said are an example where the grades are converted from different scales somehow).

    I didn't check the data you quoted for Robben/Ronaldinho closely, or log onto DBS Calcio, and I wouldn't have a complete enough memory to recognise for sure which grades you talked about, but I know there is a column for DBS Rating (based on the media ratings, but adjusted a bit for some things - I'm not really sure what).

    In Italy it seems to be standard for grades to be handed out in 0.5 increments (and often most of them will be in the 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7 range with just a few deviations higher or lower and not often extreme ones). In England normally it is straight marks out of 10 in whole numbers, and more very high grades will be handed out I think, but possibly more very low ones too.
     
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  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #368 PuckVanHeel, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    'Interesting' as in thinly concealed attempt to make Ronaldinho look better yes.

    Where do you get these numbers from? You (again) just make them up.
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/9016/History/Franck-Ribéry

    Of course it isn't so close. Three world class designations for Ribery vs eight world class designations when they played in the same team; much better tournament record; much better Champions League (KO) record; much better record against Borussia Dortmund from 2010 onward.

    While there are phases Ribery reached more regularity in the league (Robben still more often among the '11 of the week'), there is a noticeable difference.

    Ronaldinho wasn't necessarily vastly superior to a Deco or Eto'o either by the numbers or whatever algorithm there might be. There is an argument Deco was the most crucial player of that side.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Might be. He did have a flashy style of course. But it's true marketing plays a part in football (just as 'politics' and special perks for certain nations).

    "The biggest clubs are entertainment brands as much as they're clubs," he said. "And I think they're being more careful about how they operate. They think more carefully about how much a player adds to the club, both on the pitch and as a brand, and they put a number on it. And if they don't think they'll get a return, they don't act."

    https://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-ma...-likes-of-baleneymar-and-dybala-were-not-sold

    We also see this in other sports: I read today in the newspaper 'we' have the next Formula Two champion (his team-mate, the lead driver of the team, is 18th in the standings). But the chances he will be in Formula One is small, for a big part because of marketing, the size of the market, and because there is already a compatriot in Formula One. Commercial reasons will place him by the wayside. Two or three dutchies in the highest class is not the same calculation as three Germans, two Brazilians, simple as that. No question.

    Yes we agree here. I feel (and explained before) a five years window is the fairest comparison, which also gives a fair chance to perceived late bloomers as Modric or the ones who were unlucky with injuries (or self-imploded). Over a five years window, for different teams, the comparison between Best, Ronaldinho and him isn't enormously straightforward or easy. When considering influence and all the rest.
     
  20. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    He still played 65 matches with Madrid... that is seven more than Neymar's with PSG for example.
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjen_Robben#Clubes
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neymar#Clubes

    His stats and DBS Calcio ratings were average/good, then it turned phenomenal in the Bundesliga, not that he really solved the physical problems with injuries he had.

    History ===> Detailed ===> Positions (All less Subs)
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #371 PuckVanHeel, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Varane:

    This video below is a good analysis from two years ago and I think it has still relevance today (article from Madrid paper Marca, second article - bullet point #8 there, example on video from last season).




    I'd like to start with the comment Varane is only 26.5 years old. Almost all of the greats reach their peak as an actual defender from the age of 26 onward.

    Varane is in ESM behind his team-mates Ramos, Marcelo, Pepe (and Casillas) and level with the one year older Casemiro. In DBScalcio he has been once among the best three of his position, including the incomplete seasons.

    Until now he has won a lot for his age (even a lot more than the usual greats at this age), and he can build from there, but most of the times not as a starter. I think there are two major trophies (2018CL - how good were they defensively that campaign and year?, the 2018WC) where he was a starter, and you can also add the 2016-17 league title (supplanted half-injured Pepe in this season; 23 league starts, 19 completed matches). For the 2017 Champions League he came in during the last three matches, but for the full season not really first choice. When including the Club World Cup the number goes up to five major trophies for club and country, as opposed to seven major trophies where he wasn't an integral player. In 7 of the 12 major trophies he wasn't a starting player.

    His pinnacle so far is undoubtedly the 2018 World Cup (after missing euro 2016), where he was the only one of his team to play all minutes and had several good matches (the last three matches in particular; less so the ones against Argentina, Peru or Australia). In the club season his compatriot Umtiti was overall better, although maybe not the better footballer.

    Footballing wise I suppose he goes below Blanc, Tresor and Bossis but ahead of Desailly. In comparison to his peers he's not quite a Pique or Van Dijk, let alone Hummels or Marcelo (imho).

    In terms of influence: a positive difference for Lens is noticeable, but this is of course somewhat easier for a team finishing 19th and gets relegated. With him they won 21% and lost 45%. Without him (15 missed games) it is 13% win percentage and 46% loss percentage. He was only 17-18 years old and it is good to remind here e.g. Sol Campbell can't show the same for a poor Tottenham.

    Real Madrid doesn't look great for him: 67% win and 17% loss with him; 73% and 12% without him (192 missed games).

    But again, he has a good start to build from and I guess some would be inclined to say of your list only Desailly was ahead of him at this age.

    I feel uncertainty about Bossis - will give it a try. Remember him mostly from euro 1984 to be honest. Not so much the other tournaments or games.

     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In 2008-09 it was the 3rd highest of his team. Behind Pepe and only 0.01 behind Higuain.

    In 2007-08 it was further down yes (below his countrymen Sneijder, Van Nistelrooij) but the statistical influence over a long period of time is clear - see above. It isn't coincidence. If he had 0 goals and 0 assists or something like that, one might wonder, but ultimately the game is not only about goals.

    Let's also not pretend Ronaldinho his stats in 2004-05 were all that phenomenal with 8 non-penalty goals and 14 assists (including set pieces and corners) in 42 games. In a completely free role.

    If the implication is "Bundesliga is an inferior league", it is better than Ligue 1 (certainly a few years back) and he evidently also did it in other settings. He was favorably compared to multiple world champions or near-champions (Ribery).



    Either way, Ronaldinho is commonly #1 or #2 of his generation (I had him #2) so that's his advantage. I said it would make an interesting and easier comparison (showing some doubt/puzzling), not that I'd have Ronaldinho by definition lower over a five years period.


    Of course not! Maybe it helps if we can become the #1 country in regulation breaches without any consequences (hint..). We're one of the most innovative countries in the world but we don't belong to the 'license to cheat' cartel. The ones who are always in the FIFA ExCom and administration, with their adopted sons and poster childs, as well as other circles of power. This isn't a conspiracy, it is a given. That's also why some (independent) journalists like us and give us the benefit of doubt, for the impact the players and figures had on their teams and sometimes even leagues to an extent.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #373 PuckVanHeel, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    So here some brief thoughts, with the caveat I'm the least secure.

    - Stylistically most similar to Blanc. With a little bit more dynamism which allowed him to play on the sides until the early 1980s. Not at all a good scorer for a defender though (Tresor is better for club and country, let alone Blanc).

    - Seems to me he peaked in international recognition in 1983-1984. Otherwise a bit less often included as Tresor. However, the two times he was in Ballon d'Or (1981, 1984) were comfortably better as Tresor his best finishes.

    - Remember him mostly from euro 1984, and looking at the ratings, that seems correct. His move to the center as opposed to the sides (defensively not super great there) was one of the things that made them secure at the back. The inclusion of Fernandez the other change of course. The 1986 World Cup seems to be his second best tournament; he has much higher ratings by France Football than by the foreigners though.

    - Fair to say his club career is comfortably better as Tresor. With multiple championships and runners-up, more often footballer of the year, deeper runs in Europe. Rewarded with easily better Ballon d'Or results as well, though included less often in the list. The passer Bossis seems no less influential for his club team either.

    - Had the luck to be five years younger than Tresor (hence most World Cup matches for France until Barthez) but whether he surpassed him in good tournaments is arguable? Can see why Tresor commonly finishes ahead by the French lists. Maybe also because Tresor his armband, physique, style and skin color (among a 'white' defense around him) made him more noticeable.

    - Also the French league wasn't all that in the late 70s/early 80s. One quarter final and one semi final in Europe is comfortably better as what Tresor achieved (factoring in his 'influence'), but can see the case Tresor his national team contribution surpasses all that (even though Bossis won euro 1984 and Tresor won nothing). As mentioned before, Tresor already receives selections in 1977, quite possibly because of his national team displays (and goal against Brazil) and a good match against Southampton for CWC (always helps to play well against English teams; then, and later with Pirlo and Ibra).


    Where to place him? I have to disappoint you but really uncertain about him. Feedback is welcome.

    edit: 'Voetbal International' in 1999 included both as viable options
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/best-x-players-of-y.html#vi-xi
     
  24. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Thanks for that. It seems to me indeed that Varane has a formidable potential that is still not completely completed. Blanc stated a few months ago that Varane was better than himself at the same age, and it could be true indeed...He has shown how good he can be in the last WC, but still has to do it consistently, and for the moment needs someone tougher to play alongside him (Ramos) to compensate some of his weaknesses (he's sometimes too soft). Also, he has the technical ability to move forward more than he does, but for the moment doesn't do it as much as he could IMHO. But yeah, he's only at 26...
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  25. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    #375 babaorum, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Thanks for the effort. I know this one was hard :D.

    My 2 cents on it :

    He was as good as Blanc technically speaking : very good with the ball in his (both) feet, same sense of anticipation (like Blanc, he rarely had to tackle). Blanc was better in the air though, whereas Bossis was faster. He was also super-clean (4 yellow cards in his carreer).
    He started to play libero lately in his carreer, not before 1982-83 with Nantes and France. He did it with ease, as Nantes won the French league that year. He had two very good tournaments (EC84 and WC86) as a libero. His association with Battiston -another former full-back who converted as a libero/stopper- surprisingly worked quite well in 85-86, since together they won 7 games, drawed 3 times and lost only once.

    But he was a super full-back to be honest. Quite good defensively -I disagree with you here- and moving forward a lot. I think his best game was vs West-Germany in wc82 (bar his missed pk of course) : I' ve rewatched the game recently and that is honestly one of the best games I've seen for a fullback in the WC (and yet he played that game at a very unusual right back position).

    Anyway, I'd have him behind Blanc and Tresor as a libero.
    As a left-back, he would be either 1st or 2nd in my mind, the other contender being Lizarazu.

    Edit :
    @comme picked Bossis as a left back in his all-time 100 lists and I think he was right.
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/th...acks-of-all-time.1293864/page-4#post-19722939
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.

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