Altafini was a supreme talented player, not sure if he scored all these goals in the Paulista League or Rio-São Paulo, but he was a top notch Brazilian talent. In 1957 at 18 he already impressed the Argentines. Altafini (for us Mazzola) should never have left Brazil. In the end I think he regretted it. He certainly had a talent for being part of the Brazilian NT.
For every zico,R9,altafini,rivaldo etc There is also a vava 0.44 gpg Went over 0.7 for the NT Prime Romario Barcelona 93-95 39 goals in 65 matches 0.6 per match Romario past his prime(vasco) 122 goals in 135 matches 0.9 gpg Ronaldinho 2000 G For every R9 and altafini There is also a vava 0.44 gpg for athletico Madrid Prime Romario 93-95 39 goals in 65 matches 0.6 per match Romario past his prime(vasco) 122 goals in 135 matches 0.9 gpg Ronaldinho gremio 2000 Around about the time vasco beat Manchester United in the overglorified friendly the intercontinental cup Supposedly signifying the strength of brazilian football 41 goals in 49 matches 0.84 gpg Ronaldinho 2005/06 Barcelona 25 in 46 0.58 gpg We could also add to this list Careca Fred Robinho And plenty of others I'm certain What was your intended purpose of bringing up altafini? If he could do it then why not Pele? Romario has more official goals then Pele and the disparity between his Barcelona record and vasco record is plain to see
His record in the Paulista as follows: José ALTAFINI (aka "Mazzola") 24.07.1938, 14 A, Forward League record (Games/Goals) 1955 00 00 Piracicaba (D1 - Bra) 1956 24 13 SE Palmeiras (D1 - Bra) 1957 34 21 SE Palmeiras (D1 - Bra) 1958 00 00 SE Palmeiras (D1 - Bra) 1958-59 32 28 AC Milan (D1 - Ita) 1959-60 33 20 AC Milan (D1 - Ita) 1960-61 34 22 AC Milan (D1 - Ita) 1961-62 33 22 AC Milan (D1 - Ita) 1962-63 31 11 AC Milan (D1 - Ita) 1963-64 30 14 AC Milan (D1 - Ita) 1964-65 12 03 AC Milan (D1 - Ita) 1965-66 34 14 SSC Napoli (D1 - Ita) 1966-67 27 16 SSC Napoli (D1 - Ita) 1967-68 29 13 SSC Napoli (D1 - Ita) 1968-69 21 05 SSC Napoli (D1 - Ita) 1969-70 15 08 SSC Napoli (D1 - Ita) 1970-71 25 07 SSC Napoli (D1 - Ita) 1971-72 29 08 SSC Napoli (D1 - Ita) 1972-73 23 09 Juventus (D1 - Ita) 1973-74 21 07 Juventus (D1 - Ita) 1974-75 20 08 Juventus (D1 - Ita) 1975-76 10 01 Juventus (D1 - Ita) 1976-77 26 14 FC Chiasso (D2 - Swi) 1977-78 n/a n/a FC Chiasso (D2 - Swi) 1978-79 07 02 FC Chiasso (D1 - Swi) 1979-80 00 00 retired 1980-81 00 00 FC Mendrisio (D2 - Swi) 1981-82 07 01 FC Mendrisio (D2 - Swi)
Again, why do you keep bringing up modern times ? Do you "not understand" the point on purpose ? Back to step 1. You: Paulista league in 50s teams conceding 70+ goals in 16 games. Pelé played vs teams like Ponte Preta, etc ... Me: La Liga in 50s also have teams conceding 70+ goals in 16 games. Pelé actually scored not so many goals vs teams you mentioned. Then I point out Pelé scored many goals vs top 5 teams in Paulista of the time. You: But what have those teams done on a National / Continental level to be respected ? Me: They didn't have opportunities to even play National (rarely) or Continental competitions because winning the State league was a prerequisite to participate in them. Santos won most of those. You might as well have said why didn't they do well in the European Cup ? But as an example, Palmeiras did well when the played in those competitions. You: Ignore Me: Look, Altafini was scoring at same rate in the Paulista League and Serie A in Italy right after he made the transition. You: I don't get it. Romario scored more than Pele. Me: I thought the point was clear. You keep saying Paulista league was easy to score in and I am pointing out a player who made the transition, didn't stop scoring at the same rate vs Serie A teams in Europe. It's not completely representative, but it's a very interesting data point. If you choose to ignore all that, just answer 1 question I keep asking you .... Why do you keep comparing leagues in the 50s GPG against vs leagues today ????
@Gregoriak Thank you, I was about to search this data. So, like Evaristo de Macedo, he was able to raise his numbers playing in Europe (total numbers... La Liga ~ Carioca)
Who completed more dribbles per game than Messi in the last 10 years (excluding Neymar at Barca)? Need I post the barrage of free kicks Pele wasted in 1970? Messi had world class KO stage performances against Mexico & Peru in Copa 07. He also scored in the final against Brazil which was wrongly disallowed. Had a hattrick against Real Madrid at the age of 19 etc. Lies. The rarely performed when it mattered the most. Also does that makes Suarez better than R9? Valverde for example
If you want to prove that Messi is the best or one of the best dribbler of his generation (not the one with the best efficiency rate) you can prove it, but it will not be for the highest number of completed dribbles that you will prove it. Messi is not the best FK taker of his generation (neither in range, angle, much less in conversion rate), neither in the last 5 years. Accept it. He has a lot number of attempts to reach his marks. Not going so far, probably Cristiano Ronaldo in 2008-2013 was a better FK taker than Messi in terms of conversion rate, distance etc. He is not better than Mbappe or R9 before he is 22 years old. If you want we open a comparison. Lies what? I will repeat it for you: Messi played alongside with the best player of his generation, 40% according The Independent, even after Tiki-Taka Barcelona with the MSN (where Neymar is arguably as talented as Cristiano and Suarez is perhaps the best stiker of this century) with Griezmann (TOP3 Ballon D'Or in 2016), Alexis Sanchez, De Jong, they even tried with luxury players like Coutinho, Dembele, these for over 100 million each. Barcelona also kidnapped talents from the other good teams in their country, something that Bayern Munich usually do in Germany. Dani Alves, Rakitic from Sevilla, Alba from Valencia, now with the ones of Firpo etc. Where is the lie there? He played with the best team he could play, period. He would not have had the same luxury at either Real Madrid or Bayern. Perhaps. R9 peaked in 96-97 and 97-98. Valverde is a much better coach than Messi or Barcelona fans think, but I was clearly referring to Guardiola, isn't Guardiola considered the best manager nowadays?
Messi was a HGH user (perhaps among other substances) as a teenager, this is a very well known fact and he has even admitted it many times. Now, how the continued use of these substances affected Messi's athletic ability in the long run and more if he continues to use this kind of help, this is something we will never know, probably. The fact is, Messi is a very strong and explosive player, since when he came up on the football scene, had fewer injuries in his career, and is also more durable physically if compared with your average footballer.
Except for his use of HGH as a treatment for a growth deficiency when he was in his early teens, you're just speculating. It only aided him achieve an average height. There is no reason to believe Messi continued to use HGH into his professional career.
Messi with 20 years old disappointed the Brazilians in the 2007 Copa America Final (Argentina A vs Brazil B) according to Folha de Sao Paulo (Brazil's largest newspaper) Argentina lost 0-3 While according to the Argentinians (or at least to the reputable Horacio Becio) Pelé did impressed him in the both two matches against his own country, in 1957, Pelé a unknown player of 16 years old was the most impressive Brazilian player. Brazil won that Copa Roca.
I am wondering if he continues to use steroids, I believe not. Of course if he keeps using, we probably wouldn't know since he plays at Barcelona, a team that can buy everything and everyone. But in regards to just helping to gain height I don't know, so we are just speculating here, HGH is a performance drug too and everyone knows, even in the bodybuilding business, that it gives you a lot more, a lot more strength, lean mass, blast power and over confidence in your athletic ability, the results of the continuous use of HGH in teenagers I do not know what they are. I just leave it here. The fact is Messi has steroid history before being professional and above normal athletic abilities. There's nothing wrong with saying that.
Brazil massacres favorite Argentina according to Jornal do Brasil. Brazil the masters even without Ronaldinho and Kaka https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-28502220070716 Argentina stars Carlos Tevez and Lionel Messi were unable to impose themselves on the match and were marked out of the game by well-organised opponents. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/6899694.stm Messi - Riquelme: desconexión sideral en una final para el olvido https://www.minutouno.com/notas/253501-messi-riquelme-desconexion-sideral-una-final-el-olvido
you make so many contradictory comments that i stopped responding, but why in the hell would you need the most number of successful take ons to be the best dribbler? Messi has not operated at the right wing since 2008, excluding perhaps 2015 season. Wingers are players that, by far, average the most dribbles per game than any other position. Just like a goal, not every dribble is of the same difficulty and importance. If we were going to look at stats only, Maximin, Adama Traore, Zaha, etc would be considered one of the best dribblers of the generation. Are they tho? I mean, if you have ever watched any of those players with common sense or objective eyes, it would be pretty easy to conlcude that Messi is a class above the rest in dribbling: Messi's random season: vs Hazard's poty season: vs Neymar's best season: Throughout the history Maradona and Messi are clear 1,2 in dribbling, while the rest of the greats can line up behind them including Pele (who never had true pace).
there are richer clubs that would benefit from Messi being banned from football if he continued to use HGH into his professional career. It is veeeery unlikely that is the case. Plus that is absolutely irrelevant point to the topic. It just shows the length to which you are willing to go to dehumanize and discredit his career.
What are my contradictory comments, dude? My last quote (#128) you didn't answer, because you couldn't, your arguments were weak, false and completely counterargumentable based on facts. Clearly for you dude, not for me. For me Garrincha and Pelé are above the rest here.
I just replied that he had a steroid past, this is true and very well documented and admitted by himself. Or now we'll say he NEVER used synthetic hormones in his life. In the 1950s, Messi would probably never play soccer professionally.
How is this argument of medical use of HGH during his teenage years for a known actual medical condition any relevant ? You're not really wondering, you're inferring.
I can only hope you come to sense and learn how to exchange ideas. Garrincha barely has any highlights on youtube and matches available to watch. How could anyone come to that conclusion from an objective point of view? It is obvious what you are doing, consciously or unconsciously. You have no structure behind your arguments. You are just grabbing for whatever seems in favor of Pele. I mean, you've even admitted that as a Brazilian you are biased and you want Pele to be better.. better than Messi, better than Neymar,.. at first you say Messi is overrated because he played under Guardiola who has had goalscoring machines whenever he played and his time in Barcelona coincedes with Spain's 3 major thropies. As soon as it is shown that Messi's output is independent of Guardiola and that Spain was no offensive force, you ignore it and go after the another bs, that he scored because of MSN, despite the fact that Neymar is in PSG for 2 seasons, and Suarez is out of prime for just about the same time, yet Messi has had one of his best seasons last year. Oh yes, doing it all under highly criticized Valverde, and Barcelona having only 2 Spanish internationals. Nobody under Guardiola has scored 45+ goals in a season (except Messi), which is the tally that Messi has broken 5 out of last 7 seasons (since Guardiola left). 2 out of 2 times since Neymar left. I don't know why am i still engaging in this debate when you clearly put no thought in anything you say. Again, HGH argument is irrelevant. Well, maybe you are not gifted intellectually. That would actually explain all of it.
I just said we don't know how it affected your athletic abilities after using a continuum as a teenager just that. Perhaps his athletic abilities are natural, the result of his natural development. Now to say that he NEVER used steroids that is already a lie.
Since when you make sense? When you said Real Madrid lowered their goal average last season just for missing Cristiano (that was the logic behind your comment), I showed you that, at the same time, Cristiano Ronaldo not only lowered his averages, but also Juventus lowered their average in the Italian League (a more dominant team in their own league and in a much weaker league and generation) and you became very quiet. In other words, your base of argument that Messi (and Cristiano Ronaldo also implied) played in the most difficult place to do what they did was completely wrong. They played with the best teams they could, in one of the msot off-balanced league and so on. Even more off-balanced than the Campeonato Paulista in 60s, period. I think even Cristiano Ronaldo once said that it was harder to play in the Premier League and to have the type of numbers he had playing for Real Madrid in the Spanish League. If I find the interview I put the link here. Since when watching a 15-minutes youtube video the best parts of their moves is an objective way of seeing things? Dude, please. Wake up. Garrincha is reported to be effective in his dribbling against any opponent, being the WC62 a demonstration of it, making the top NTeams of his time like Spain (+ their foreigners), look like a village team. These things are written. Just pick up any article of the past and you'll find that out. Now it's typical of you... that Garrincha wasn't a good dribbler, or that Pelé didn't had "real pace". That's pretty much your way of saying things you can't prove and you have done it a lot of times for now. Typical blablabla. One thing .. who said to you that you're not biased? You are best known here as Messi's fanboy, and look you're not even Argentinian. PD: You seriously thinking Neymar belongs in this debate only shows that you are ignoring the past very clearly. You live in the Barcelona bubble to say these things. It's so many bullshits there that I won't even argue (as if Spain 08-12 played with Guardiola coaching them, that Spain had to faced Rayo Vallecanos, Leganeses level of opponents in the EC or in the WC), in general still remain my point they were more dominant than Germany14 or France18, comparisons you made, period. ...and the players like Xavi or Iniesta are generally considered greater than any other German or French player of these teams. Both of them played their peaks at Barcelona. I just wanted you to tell me when I said that Messi is overrated as a player? Again, you are confusing things dude. Wake up. Anyway if, I'm just one against millions, it is a million times more likely to read on these forums or in the Internet (generally), that Pelé was overrated or played against nobody or was fake than Messi. Don't worry, if I say a few things here or post some videos of BellaKona it won't affect the Argentinian legacy. Your only "brillant" argument in this thread was basically: Messi's football era was better than Pelé's football era. If you think that, and no matter how dominant they were in their own era under similar level of rivals underdogs/favorites etc (btw, you don't think Elo is good for measuring proportional strength between football clubs, you prefer your own perception) then you don't need to writing lines and lines, this is a fixed opinion and that's it. Now, don't give me shit you put a good thought to get it. Who are you to determine what is or isn't relevant? Some sport medicine doctor specialized in the effects of HGH over long time? If you can understand or read a text decently, you will see that I never put it as an argument, I was just answering the user who said that Messi had never used steroids (or HGH, a banned substance anyway), which he himself admitted the use of this illegal substance as a teenager, period. How that has affected his athletic abilities is in the field of guessing, anyway. Of all forms, probably this question will be put on the table after he ends his career.
There are a few million links citing both steroids and HGH. Thousands of them must be explaining the difference between one and the other.
Remember that this whole debate between me and Sexybeast (SB) was not even about my point*, but about a straw man argument that SB created (based on him refuting what he named it 'my whole point'), and he still couldn't handle it. *My point was to analyse performances and end product in finals, big matches, big competitions and against similar level of opponents. You guys are very smart indeed.
is this a relative or objective comparison? The true purpose of this thread is to compare them in the totality of their respective club careers Something which is virtually impossible to do For this reason you/no one can use Pele's goals record as some sort of yard stick by which Messi is judged Pele scored dozens of official goals against teams which would have no place in la liga today or any time during the last 20 years In 1959 one of pele's highest ever scoring paulista campaigns The bottom 3 teams conceded 83,90 and 92 goals respectively (Albeit in a 38 game format but still) 92 conceded goals is unbelievably shocking Sorry to say but I don't give a damn about the state of 1950s la liga. this is a distraction tactic Typical The game as a whole has evolved and moved on (visibly) You even said how 'crap' 1960s Spanish football looked when I posted puskas hat trick against Barcelona There is no such a thing as a relative comparison at least not one that makes sense Pele played with certain advantages and also disadvantages I don't feel however it balances out For me what only matters here is: Pele in official matches stat padded against demonstrably inferior opposition to what was faced by messi/Cristiano in la liga, R9 and Shevchenko in Italy etc Referring here specifically to the bottom half of paulista teams Taubaté finished 8th place in the 59 campeonato paulista and conceded freaking 70 goals!!!! This is a upper-mid table team not even close to the relegation zone Again misconstruing my point You presented altafini as a prime example of a player who made a successful transition from SA to Europe I countered him with vava who featured as a starter in two world cup victories He scored at 0.44 for atletico Madrid in la liga His scoring however improved considerably for vasco and palmeiras Vava scored 9 WC goals in 10 matches including 3 goals in two finals But only 0.44 gpg in la liga this is a prime example of how a super team can transform a vardy level striker into one of the best CFs ever Like I said for every altafini there is a vava (or even a didi) A player who doesn't replicate his form in Europe This is besides the point anyhow Any comparison between Pele and Messi based on quality of opposition will always go in messi's favour The 'truly great players' might succeed(depending on your definition of success) your average professional from the 50s and 60s A guy who smoked cigarettes like a chimney, worked two jobs to pay the rent etc which is effectively 95% of professional footballers from that time period cannot compare to the today's consummate professionals who live and breathe the sport Going on a loosely related tangent Tropiero talks about garrincha destroying spain but did Tropiero see how tactically woeful Spain looked How retarded the dribble of garrincha was There is no elusiveness or explosion of pace just the same retarded feint that no elite defender today would fall for Even if they did they'd be able to make a recovery tackle because garrincha from WC footage at least was a one trick pony with limited pace and non existent tactical noous His skill set can be demonstrated in one sentence Retarded feint past fullback+whip in cross Poor finishing/shooting, poor professionalism,amateur skills He is a top 10 all timer based on exactly what?