Summary of last night's Seattle 2 - Phoenix match. What can we see that's wrong? SCORING SUMMARY PHX - Alessandro Riggi (Chris Cortez) 44' MISCONDUCT SUMMARY PHX - Victor Vasquez (caution) 33' SEA - Jordy Delem (caution) 42' PHX - Victor Vasquez (caution) 60' SEA - Jordy Delem (ejection) 64' PHX - Jason Johnson (caution) 75' SEA - Denso Ulysse (caution) 84' LINEUPS & STATS Seattle Sounders FC 2 - Tyler Miller; Denso Ulysse, Sam Rogers, Rodrigue Ele; Steve Whyte (Azriel Gonzalez 73'), Harry Shipp, Jordy Delem, Zach Mathers, Henry Wingo, David Olsen (Guy Serge Edoa HT); Seyi Adekoya (Felix Chenkam 59') Substitutes not used: Sam Fowler, Brian Nana-Sinkam, Francisco Narbon, Shandon Hopeau Total shots: 13 Shots on goal: 5 Corner-kicks: 8 Saves: 2 Phoenix Rising FC - Josh Cohen; Kody Wakasa, Doueugi Mala, Jordan Stewart, Victor Vasquez (Jason Johnson 62'), Sam Hamilton, Keyon Lambert, Amadou Dia, Gladson Awako (AJ Gray 81'); Alessandro Riggi, Chris Cortez (Matt Watson 76') Substitutes not used: John Berner, Jordan Gibbons, Eric Avila, Blair Gavin Total shots: 11 Shots on goal: 3 Corner-kicks: 4 Saves: 5
Since it's out there publicly, probably better to just discuss the news. Here's USL's statement: #USL Statement Regarding @SoundersFC2 vs. @PHXRisingFC pic.twitter.com/yzNHX5cwe3— USL Championship (@USLChampionship) September 21, 2017 Video of match is here with the first caution at 32:25 on the game clock and the second at about 58:52: It's pretty easy to see what likely happened. After issuing the first caution, she gets engaged with the protests from Seattle about not applying advantage and doesn't write the caution immediately. So she either forgets to write it or writes the wrong number. The protests would also account for why Seattle didn't realize the player was ever on a caution and didn't bother protesting when he wasn't send off. This is not an excuse and it doesn't explain how the referee crew didn't get the right number over the mics immediately thereafter or sorted things out at halftime, but it's almost certainly what happened. (as a total aside, AR1 didn't cover himself in glory by initially flagging for a throw-in the other way while she was coming in to call a foul and issue a caution right in front of him) Can't believe USL is just saying "yeah, it happened, but result stands." I guess travel budgets for a second division in a league that spans a continent are already stretched thin, but this match was 11 v 10 (instead of 10 v 11 or 10 v 10) for 30 minutes and it ended a 1-goal game. It strains credulity to uphold the result.
She nailed the location of the foul but presumably messed up the recording of the card then set the wall at 12 yards, maybe flustered by knowing she was too quick on the whistle? This was not her first USL assignment. What I really wonder about was did the 4O get the number right on the first caution.
There's really not much to wonder about. If he had it, there would have at least been a discussion or delay. And I don't think he would have stood idly by and administered the sub to allow the player to leave the field soon thereafter without at least alerting the referee. This is on all four officials.
It makes me think the R gave the wrong number over the headset. I can't think how else none of the 4 would have noticed.
Right. I agree that seems the most logical explanation. It doesn't look like AR1 was recording (or helpful at all on the major decisions I watched). But the 4th would be confirming info in real time. And if not then, definitely at half time. So if everyone agreed at halftime that they had all cautions correct, the most logical answer is that the first caution was mistakenly recorded and identified from the beginning.
The referee need not worry. Judging by what happened on one previous occasion in a pro league in the USA when a similar incident occurred, that referee was assigned to a championship final at the end of the season! Not so good news for the ARs though; they were never used at that level again, even though they did try to inform the referee of the error at the time. PH
No excuse for that. Obviously there was very little, if any, communication between the members of the crew. And yes, what the hell was AR1 doing on the 2nd caution. He signals for a throw in going in the opposite direction. Not a good look.
AFAIR, the entire crew was suspended for the rest of the season. The ARs never returned, the 4O came back a few seasons later. Of course all of this was way before PRO started. FWIW, the 4O on Poll's infamous match was from the USA. Poll "retired" as a FIFA referee that year. It seems that a major error like this can have a huge effect on a referee's career, some of it being due to the effect on the referee's own feelings and mental state. Very traumatic and follows a referee forever. PH
Looks like Itaya had 6 additional regular season assignments and a playoff game in 2003. Widner had 3 additional games. Neither had any assignments after 2003.
Maybe they were preassigned and did not actually work the games. I always understood everyone was suspended for the remainder of the season; maybe it was just a rumor but it makes no sense to continue assignments for that season then drop them after that. It was also understood that both ARs essentially quit due to the perceived injustice they received. Perhaps someone who knows these guys personally can chime in to clarify this. BTW, Widner was listed as an AR coach with PRO. PH
Regular season, who knows, but somehow I doubt a playoff assignment in November was assigned already in July. Now there's an idea!
The crew told the referee he had already booked the guy. Ref chose to disregard crew input. Entire crew suspended. Ref did not have the intestinal fortitude to tell the powers that be "It was my mistake and these guys tried to save me." Rest of crew thrown under bus to protect the referee. We lost good officials as a result of this travesty.
In one of the few game I have done with mics and a 4O, I had the experience that the CR actually opted to not to keep his own record. “That’s what the 4O is here for, so why would I?” I looked at the video of all the misconducts, and the video doesn’t linger on the cr long enough to be certain in any of them, but it never shows the CR recording. To be sure, she is not using write on cards, but I wonder if she just didn’t record. So, as with so many things where I learn from the misdeeds of others, this is a reminder to me, that even if I have mics and a 4O, I will still record. On write on cards.
Sandy Hunt once said that people asked her why she recorded subs when she had a 4O. She replied that it was ultimately going to be on her if a substituted player returned. Or words to that effect. I think the same thing applies here, in spades.
It seems that one of her own protégés ignored this critical advice! Maybe this will serve as a warning/lesson to referees who delegate the record-keeping to other members of the crew. Put simply...don't do it! PH
Anyone know whether the referee views ARs and 4ths as co-equal members of the crew, or just as subordinates? PH
You're asking about Koroleva? She absolutely uses her crew fully as co-equals. In the rush to pile on and speculate, I think it's worth stopping and saying this was a mistake by a good referee. A bad mistake, but still a mistake. I was thinking about this last night. I've only worked with one of the two, but based on what I know from the reputation of the other, Katja's and Jair's use of the comms systems could not possibly be more different. Jair rarely talks and doesn't want much input at all. Katja wants and encourages constant communication, to the point that conversations are going on. It's pretty amazing that this mistake--one a referee never wants to make--could happen to both of them. And it shows that it can happen for two completely different reasons. I've said from my first post that AR1 looked shaky. I think any deficiencies in this match were totally on him and not due to how she instructs or empowers her assistants.
Thanks for reply. But what you say here does not correspond with what actually happened in this match. If there was "constant communication, to the point that conversations are going on" this error would never have happened. The constant communication would have stopped it, either with the first caution or with the second one. It looks like there was none at all which is why I asked. Now the previous incident happened prior to the introduction of headsets, so there was no constant communication. However the game was stopped after the other team bench alerted the 4th and he and AR-1 actually directly verbally informed the referee about the 2nd caution. The referee told them it was not a 2nd caution, saying a different player got the first card. Since this happened at a time when MLS was even more discouraging of red cards than they are now, it was suggested that the referee simply did not want to send the player off, so claimed the caution as being for a different player. So the two incidents, although having the same outcome, clearly happened for different reasons, and had different interactions between the crews. He may have been shaky, but what about the other two members? I don't think you can put all the blame on him for this. Failure to properly keep a record of the match and lack of concentration are the key factors here. If this had been done, there would be no need to be baled out by colleagues anyway. PH
I'm all for piling on Jair and that incident. Some very good ARs got thrown under the bus as a result of his ego and arrogance. But it is time to move on. It happened close to 15 years ago. Let's focus on what happened here. The most reasonable explanation was that on the first caution she communicated to the crew a different number. They maybe questioned her and said "are you sure, it is not him instead?" If she says, "yeah I am" then there is nothing that you can really do as an AR or 4th. They probably exchanged information at half-time and she must have insisted that it was a different number on the first caution. At that point there is not much that you can do. AR 1 looked bad, but that is what happens when you have a second division league that spans a continent. The budget is simply not there to fly guys in all the time, so you have to use local guys.
This was the admins at US Soccer and MLS fault at the time. There was no need to treat the ARs and 4th they way they did. Those guys did their jobs properly. A good friend of mine was actually at that match and told me they tried very hard to tell the referee that he had already cautioned the player. After that it was on the referee. I have no idea why so much blame fell on the ARs and 4th. It really was a gross injustice. And wasn't one of the ARs on the FIFA list at the time? PH