NSR: Give me your rested, your rich, privileged White Colombians yearning to post in soccer forums...

Discussion in 'Colombia' started by dapip, Oct 18, 2018.

?

My parents/grandparents/great great great grandparents arrived:

  1. They were here when Columbus got lost and hit America

    2 vote(s)
    16.7%
  2. They arrived in the Mayflower

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  3. They came shackled and got to work in plantations at the sound of a whip

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. They arrived through Ellis Island between 1830 and 1950

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. They came here as a result of _______________ crisis

    4 vote(s)
    33.3%
  6. I'm the first one to move here from my country.

    5 vote(s)
    41.7%
  1. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Immigration. What a beautiful topic. In a country made mostly of people whose ancestors were not here 3 centuries ago (a blink in historical terms), we really have some posters having very bad opinions about migrants, documented and "illegal". Truth is, immigrants contribute a great deal to the US economy and overall they input more than they take. At some point the US decided to cut back (or at least not invest to modernize) their immigration system and that has created huge backlogs and a shortage of laborers, that has been covered with undocumented migrants. Anyways, if you think that people that moves here to try to make things better for them and their families are the problem, here is an article that will help you view the issue from a different perspective:

    https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17229018/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes

    It’s true that not all undocumented immigrants pay federal income taxes, because the government has no way to keep track of their under-the-table earnings. The IRS can withhold taxes from those hired with fake Social Security numbers, but workers who get paid in cash could simply choose not to report it, unless they voluntarily file a return with an ITIN number.

    Still, all undocumented workers fund public schools and local government services by paying sales and property taxes like everyone else. The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy estimates that they pay about $11.7 billion a year in state and local taxes.

    And workers who get a paycheck, like Maria, still have payroll taxes for Medicare and Social Security withheld from their paycheck, even if they put a fake Social Security number on their W-2 form. The IRS estimates that unauthorized workers pay about $9 billion in payroll taxes annually.

    In Maria’s case, the W-2 form showed that she paid $1,072 into Social Security and $251 into Medicare, two social safety net programs she may never benefit from.

    A portion of the payroll tax withheld from undocumented immigrants — like all workers — goes to the retirement trust fund at the Social Security Administration. In 2013, the agency reviewed how much money undocumented workers contributed the retirement trust fund. The number was astonishing: $13 billion in one year.

    The chief actuary of the Social Security Administration, Stephen Goss, estimates that about 1.8 million immigrants were working with fake or stolen Social Security cards in 2010, and he expects that number to reach 3.4 million by 2040.

    We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally,” Goss concluded in the 2013 review.
     
  2. Baal88

    Baal88 Member+

    May 10, 2008
    Medellin
    Club:
    Independiente Medellin
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    #2 Baal88, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
    LOL.

    Just Cast my vote. But to be honest my grand grand grand grand parents from my fathers side probably came to America (the continent) chained from Ivory Coast or so.
     
  3. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    im cancuamo
     
    Baal88 repped this.
  4. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    I did not want to get into the conversation in the Cucho thread but I might as well get into it here.

    To me the issues are that undocumented workers/ illegals are coming here and skipping the process that others have done to come here. It took my father 8 years to get his citizenship and do things the right way. People should not be able to skip in line for any reason.

    Also where do we stop? Should all of the World's disenfranchised and poor come to the USA? Should we allow everyone from every nation here with no questions asked? That is not safe at all. and will overpopulate our Nation.
     
    Azucarero repped this.
  5. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    not all disefnfranchised and poor people go only to usa........and actually some countries have repsonsability in the poverty of other countries........and yes usa is one of them.
     
    crzdcolombian repped this.
  6. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    #6 HomietheClown, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
    I never said that all disenfranchised people come to the USA.
    I am asking the question of how many should come to the USA and what are the limitations.
     
  7. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Also the main focus should be on the immigrants that do the process the correct way and their rights being a priority. Not people who skip them in line and try to come to this Nation without following the process.
     
  8. Baal88

    Baal88 Member+

    May 10, 2008
    Medellin
    Club:
    Independiente Medellin
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    #8 Baal88, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
    Yep. It's something similar to what's happening in Great Britain, and even here in colombia. As far as I know more than 2 million of Venezuelans have arrived in Colombia trying to run from the economic problems, the majority are premium hardworking people, but some are also bringing illnesses that we had controlled here and thieves are also taking advantage of the situation to cross the border.

    In the end IMO what needs to be done is monitoring the people better, not just letting everyone enter, because as I said, a lot will be good people but you need to stop the bad from entering or the least possible because let's be honest, you can't stop every murderer or thief from getting in, they will find a way in if they really want to.
     
  9. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    The illnesses and lack of immunizations should definitely be monitored much better and is a huge issue.
     
  10. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    #10 HomietheClown, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
    And it is not an easy problem to solve obviously since there is heated debate about it.

    On one hand you want to be open and want to welcome people and be hospitable and care for people in an empathetic way.

    But at the same time you have to show some intelligence when it comes to the health and safety of your own citizens which is the priority of any government...
    ...its very own citizens.

    The balancing act is not as easy as some portray it to be.
     
    Baal88 repped this.
  11. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Another thing that grinds my gears is that people like Crzd say or imply that it is racist and very white elitist to be against illegal immigrants which is:
    A) Not true and
    B) Not a coherent argument.

    A dirty little secret is that Illegal immigration hurts a lot of minority groups living in the the United States. I have heard about cases in California where African Americans do not get jobs because they cannot speak Spanish and the jobs are going to illegal immigrants in many cases.
    These cases go to court and there are lawsuits which not only waste's tax payers time and money but hurts a minority group that we should be helping in our urban cities.
     
  12. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    It is a catch 22 and most likely it didn't start with the immigrants. Before the 1965, laborers from Mexico will come, work, then leave, because it was easy to enter the US AND there was a need for their labor. They did not stay or bring their families, because they could come and go back and have a better life in Mexico.

    Once the border was closed, the economical opportunities were still here, but the process changed, leaving most of them without a clear path to gain permanent residence or citizenship, or even enter the country. Meanwhile employers, still in need of Mexican workers, will ignore their status and break the law, for the most part without consequences. Immigrants will be deported, but who cares, since thousands more will come regardless.

    IOW, it was the US that changed the rules but gave no clear answer to the economics that fueled the movement of people. We have been waiting for a solution for the last 40 years and every other year congress kicks the can down the road.

    Several things:

    1. Without immigration (or with a severely limited input), the US will become an old nation, since fertility rates are declining and the population is mostly sustained and viable levels thanks to migrants and their descendants. IIRC, we need to accept about 3 million people each year just to keep certain social programs viable, since retirees are living longer and we decided not to tax all incomes for SS. The US migratory system processes about 700,000 people in a year, and the backlogs are now decades long.

    2. Compared with Asia and Europe, the US has plenty of space. In absolute terms, we could accommodate many more people if we built apartments instead of McMansions. Furthermore, our consumption and carbon imprint are gigantic compared with other countries, even developed ones. IOW, yeah, we like to keep people out, but we use like 25% of Earth's resources being only 5% of the population.

    3. immigrants contribute to our economy, even those that come from war-torn countries and that come with little or no education. In the net, immigrants (including undocumented) probably contribute much more than what they take.

    4. If the US gave $100 every year to every poor person in the world, it would cost about the same as half the defense budget. For a lot of poor people that would be the difference between staying home or moving. And on top of that we build arms and bombs and fuel extremely expensive wars everywhere. Shouldn't we at least be responsible in part to solving some of the problems that we have created or made worse?
     
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  13. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    You are not answering my questions just pointing out the problems and how those problems get worse.

    The main question is what are our limits and should we allow everyone to come here..And should they skip the people in line who are doing the process the correct way waiting their turn.
     
  14. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    [​IMG]

    There is a racist element on it, when the President and his acolytes say that "Mexico sends only his worst" and that they are "Drug Mules with Calves the size of cantaloupes". True, there are some groups that are hurt more when immigrants take their jobs (lets say a McDonalds cashier because Spanish is now required), but that does not that apply (for the most part) to people that will not take an agricultural job, or whose job was shipped to China. But for Trump voters, the racist element is definitely essential to their fear of the other.
     
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  15. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    You are exaggerating when it comes to Trump voters.
    I voted for Trump and I am not racist. There are millions of others who are not racist too. In fact his Hispanic approval numbers are going up as are his African American poll numbers because they are seeing results.
     
  16. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Well, we do need immigrants, as I've said about 3 million per year. The issue is that we take very long to let somebody in, so what we need to do is fix our immigration system. That should include some sort of amnesty and a path to citizenship for those already here.

    If we modernize the system, it will very likely happen that people that applies right after the measure passes, would gain their status ahead of people that has been waiting for years through the old system. It might not be fair, but that doesn't mean that they'll be rejected.
     
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  17. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    I agree and I think everyone agrees that the system was/is broken.
    Ironically no one really wanted to approach the issue until Trump came in but that is a volatile issue.

    Also while we are at it why do Latinos who cross the border get priority over other immigrants?
    The percentage of immigrants coming from Latin american countries is astoundingly larger than the immigrants from other Nations.
    If we Fix the problem shouldn't it be laid out more equal for those from all around the world instead of a system that favors those who just happen to live near the border or in Central America?
    Shouldn't we be more inclusive to different cultures and have a system that does not favor one region?
     
  18. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    This is straight out of Breitbart, based on a very inaccurate poll:

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...roval-rating-almost-double-that-of-last-year/

    In reality Trump's support among blacks have stayed almost unmovable.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I'll give you that it probably ticked up a couple of points among Hispanics, God knows why...
     
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  19. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    I just told you why and I am not God. I am a Hispanic and I know many Hispanics that like Trump. Many who are legal immigrants who followed the process and see that other politicians shy away from the issue.
     
  20. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    This is a geography issue. More people comes to the US from Mexico and Central America because they are closer. Migrants from Africa tend to go to Europe, plus the added advantage of having colonial connections. IOW, its a non-issue.
     
  21. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    FYP
     
  22. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Well the way I see it if we are fixing the problem and changing the system we should find a way to be more inclusive and be more diverse in who we bring in. I am sure there will be some people who want to come here from the Eastern hemisphere who will gladly want to be a part of the process.
     
  23. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    No because there are Mexicans who followed the right procedure especially in Texas who feel the same way.
    so I call bs on your "fix".
     
  24. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    And Dapip is it not fair or accurate to say that people think they are better than a certain group by following laws and by wanting justice to be served.
     
  25. villus

    villus Member+

    Jun 5, 2008
    I think there is nothing racist about addressing illegal immigration and the immigration system in the US but that clearly is not the current issue its racism. All the right wing talking heads at first were talking about illegal immigration then they pivoted to simply immigration. Passing people in line doesn't effect people in line trying to immigrate, do people think that simply coming to the US illegally is a cake walk? Its stressful, you don't get a ton of the benefits of the country while having the fact you could get deported and uprooted from your life at any moment, people who file all the paperwork and come legally get lots of benefits, its not equal.

    People immigrate for real life reasons, its difficult and usually necessary labeling them illegal aliens and criminalizing them is inhumane and wrong and don't kid yourselves the vast majority of people doing so see no difference between a latino who is in the US legally or illegal they simply do not like that which is different from them.
     
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