I think I overstated the impact of viewership, but that isn't the only benefit. Similarly, I really dont believe using a tournament 20 years ago is a good indicator. How much has the production and viewership of the world Cup changed in 20 years. Since the games are in Tokyo, nothing is on in prime time. The time difference isnt as great as Beijing, but I recall watching all the matches live in 2008. I also view 730am is a time I would easily be up to watch. If nothing else, this could be a chance to win back fans who have stopped paying attention over the last few years. The casual fan would get whatever edited segments are shown in prime time. I think this young group is a very likable bunch with the type of stories they love to so features on. The other boost is the streaming options that wernt available 20 years ago. The PR benefit doesnt stop with the games. If they were smart they would transition into a very young team and market the WC team as new generation with 15 (?) Of the 23 being from the Silver medal olympic squad. The real benefit is getting these guys experience. They get to compete in a big tournament (more stage, even if not viewed heavily in the US) and build on the winning experiences many had with the u20s. I think this experience will be much more valuable than playing at Honduras or Jamaica. Playing to dominate is very different to holding your own. We need more players that can impact games. I guess it depends on who we play in the first window. We are only risking 3 or 4 points and we saw last time that it isnt that hard to overcome. If we think we can get the points we expect without the youngsters then I consider it. Agree, smaller bandwagon than I suggested before, but still has potential to bring some positive to a program that desperately needs it.
So, to boil it down, you think qualifying for the 2022 WC is something to sacrifice to play in the 2020 Olympics. Sorry, I disagree. What is the point of getting them "big tournament experience" if they fail to qualify for the big tournament? If the Hex started in 2021, then by all means, do whatever you want in 2020. But to send players to get experience to help them compete in a world cup; but then miss the world cup, that is counter productive to put it nicely.
That is a fair opinion. I dont think it is that big of a risk. I dont see why we shouldnt qualify easily. You don't think we could win a game at home vs any other team besides Mexico? I Ariola--------Altidore------Morris ----------Holmes----Lletget----------- ------------------Morales---------------- Ream--Alvarado--Long--Yedlin -------------------Horvath--------------- included Steffen and Brooks with the u23s. There are quite a few u23 players that wouldnt make my 18 for the Olympics that could help add depth for the Hex. For example, if the midfield is CP, WM, and TA with 2 subs from Parks, Yeuill, Ledezma, Mendez, Durkin, Servania, Cappis, Pomykal, Aaronson, etc. This should never have been an issue. Why has CONCACAF pushed qualifying up when the WC is moved back?
I'd have to say when you fail to qualify in one cycle, assuming the best and taking qualification for granted in the very next cycle may not be the best way to approach things.
I would expect young Reyna to get called up to one of the next two or three USMNT camps and to feature with the Olympic team if BVB will allow him.
If he will be replacing Sancho, they won't. Would be a bad sign if they release him. Same with all the guys looking to be starters in Europe.
We might be playing Mexico at home the first game. Altidore will be hurt. Horvath hasn't played in a year. Plus, a couple of those guys will have top be at the Olympics if you are really going to go for it. Your not beating Brazil with Glad and McKenzie as your CBs.
Olympics are more complicated than often is the case since the full squad is pretty close to an U23 squad already. Usually, your full squad is mostly ineligible anyway so you don't have to worry about if they are released for the Olympics.
This is the typical over reaction to a series of results that should have never happened. It was Arena's arrogance of trying to show that an MLS heavy team could qualify was what led to them taking qualification for granted in 2017. We didnt instantaneously go from one of the top teams in the region to the 5th best because we lost a few games. Qualification is no harder now than it was in 2013, 2009, and 2005 when we easily qualified. It is probably easier with Costa Rica falling off. I think we could put a really solid team out even excluding 18 players for the olympics that could easily beat all teams other than Mexico at home. I think the group playing those first games in the Hex would be very motivated knowing that these young players are going to take a lot of spots. The coaching staff would also have a good chance to get a clear picture of the depth chart 40ish players being involved in those two sets of matches
That is why I said we should look at who we are playing in September to determine the route to go (when is the Hex draw). The Mexico home game is the only one I would adjust plans and that only has a 20% chance of happening. Horvath is moving this summer and will have plenty of games under his belt by the September window. I already allocated two.... Steffen and Brooks. I think one of CCV, Richard's, EPB could play the other spot. With Adams sitting in front of them, I think we could be ok defensively.
Yes, some odd results were important to our downfall last time around, as were poor results in our own games. And results in our own games are the only parts of that equation we can control. Strange things happen all the time in soccer and upsets are not uncommon; that's why you have to minimize those things happening by having your best team play every game. I absolutely think we should qualify, but letting your foot off the gas and just assuming all will go as assumed is a dangerous way to play this game. I know we came in second in the Gold Cup, but how many teams did we play that will be in the hex? I may be forgetting someone, but seems to me we beat 1 of the 2 hex teams we played (beat Jamaica and then lost to Mexico). That's no where near a big enough sample size to make me confident enough to just consider it a done deal, no need to call up the best team possible.
I'll just finish by tossing everyone a bone. 2020 Olympics are in Tokyo, a terrible time zone for American TV. Our best young players are in Europe, and even if they are released to go to Tokyo right up to the beginning of some of their seasons, it would be dumb to do that with the Hex starting just weeks later. Forget the 2020 Olympics. This next U20WC group looks even stronger than the previous. The 2024 Olympics are in Paris, in Europe. We will not have to qualify for the WC in 2026, which means we have nothing to do. 2024 is the Olympics we can make a run at. 2020 is just an unnecessary distraction. Now, I will let this go so people can talk about Reyna again. Who will be 21 in 2024.
I tend to agree w/you a lot of the time, but I don't on the first point. It's incredibly over simplistic to argue as much. Arena isn't some incompetent boogeyman that should serve as the cliched escape goat, literally, for all the went wrong. Bshredder was dead on in tracing the failure to the development of the 1990-1995 generation. It's that generation that left virtually no impact on the team as the decade evolved that saw us sputter, grow increasingly dependent on aging vets, and eventually blow a gasket entirely in '16-'17. The reason you know this is simply by looking at our performance in semi-final qualifying, and in the hex itself. How many times were we dropping points in qualification in scenarios that hadn't happened in ages and when they did in the past, had exculpatory explanations (the summer of 2001 swoon was directly connected to a series of injuries that wiped out virtually our entire collection of attacking options in the midfield and at forward even at the bench level). You see a series of defeats starting in the early stages of Klinsmann's career as HC, and they get worse over time until you see dropped semifinal qualifying performances that shock the senses and then a hex that featured multiple home defeats for the first time ever, a grand total of 2 goals scored total in four games against Costa Rica-Mexico, are worst performance in the modern era against the best two sides in the region not named USA, you see us scoring three total goals against Panama, Honduras, and T&T combined on the road. There were defensive issues that quite a few people rightly gripe about, but the team was also totally anemic at scoring goals on the road, 1 goal total, on a kinda fluke against Mexico/Costa Rica on the road, not too unusual, as we usually get 1 or 0 there, but those 3 combined goals against the other five teams, that's the head scratcher. I've not got the skills to embed some kind of chart to illustrate it, but look at the totals, and I think it underlines the problem, especially if you exempt 2001 which was a tale of 3 parts (the opening where we were dominant, the roof caves in during the summer with all the attacking options injured, then qualification is rescued in the fall w/some heroic defensive performances and a timely goal here and there). Road Goal Scoring: 1998: 6 Road Goals scored 2002: 2 Road Goals scored 2006: 6 Road Goals scored 2010: 8 Road Goals scored 2014: 7 Road Goals Scored 2018: 4 Road Goals Scored Defense: Goals Given Up/Given Up to Mexico/Costa Rica 1998: 10 Against/5 Against Mexico/Costa Rica 2002: 8 Against/3 Against Mexico/Costa Rica 2006: 6 Against/5 Against Mexico/Costa Rica 2010: 13 Against/5 Against Mexico/Costa Rica 2014: 8 Against/3 Against Mexico/Costa Rica 2018: 13 Against/7 Against Mexico/Costa Rica In looking at the performances, what stuck out to me, beyond Brian's autopsy of the failures of the fed to properly identify and develop players born in that 1990-1995 cohort were a couple of key things, namely: *Anemic scoring on the road, and at home against quality competition (1 total goal scored at home versus Mexico/Costa Rica, the lowest ever in the modern era) *Poor Defending, especially on the road: The '18 cycle tied for the worst performance in the modern era in terms of goals against, and was the worst in terms of goals against qualify competition. To me, this isn't Bruce sucks, or an abberation, this is a confluence of several factors including the decline of our ability to identify and develop talent (or a talent gap or both) with the 1990-1995 generation, this is Jozy being held scoreless in 8 of 9 appearances, and Wood being a non-factor in all but a handful of games (though it bears repeating that the US would've been in a far more dire situation if he hadn't pulled an equalizer out of his rear end in the dying moments at Honduras in September), an overdependence on Clint Dempsey coming back from a major heart issue and a teenage Pulisic. You can add other pieces, the team appeared to quit on Jurgen in Costa Rica (their annual let down game going back nearly 20 years), after an earlier ghastly performance against Mexico, Bruce woke the team up and had the thing in hand until he took the wrong lessons from the Gold Cup. How you want to read things after that, how much blame you give to him, I'm not sure, what seems clear is that there were several things that happened that hadn't happened since I started watching qualifiers in 1997: *We didn't hold serve at home against quality competition. *We were the most anemic we'd ever been in terms of scoring goals on the road and at home against quality teams since the summer swoon of '01 *We were defensively as bad as the very worst we'd ever been over the previous twenty years. *We lost decisively to the worst team in the hex in a do or die game where they had nothing to play for. There are lots of other things of course: Bruce was at his most arrogant, self-aggrandizing self, especially after the home victory over Panama. The team got medical results that they shouldn't have let trump common sense (supposedly they got results suggesting their starters were in peak physical condition and good to go for 2 games in just a couple of days, however traditionally there would be changes to make for two games played in such a short window, and none were made), the team clearly was overconfident going into the game (piggyback pictures).... One could go on and on. However, for people who want to blame Bruce, or attack that game specifically or that game and Costa Rica, how do you explain the demolition of Panama, the excellent performance in March and solid performance in June? It seems pretty clear to me that it wasn't anywhere close to just Bruce, or just MLS guys, it was a who plethora of problems best encapsulated by anemic goal scoring in tough environments or against quality competition, poor defense, poor leadership (they had how many wtf?!?! performances, 1 in semifinal qualifying, back to back to start the hex, then again vs Costa Rica, and at Honduras, and then at T&T, basically 6 horrific dumpster fire games when typically there's 2-3 max. The problems were just much broader than Bruce or MLS or both Bruce and MLS Sucks. Everything sucked. If it wasn't everything, it wouldn't have wrapped its ugly tentacles across so many different matches as it did. A look back in greater detail: '18 Road: 4 Road Goals 1 against Mexico/Costa Rica Defense: 13 Goals Against/7 against Mexico/Costa Rica '14 Road: 7 Road goals 1 against Mexico/Costa Rica 6 against the worst 3 other sides. Defense: 8 Goals against/3 against Mexico/Costa Rica '10 Road: 8 Road goals: 2 against Mexico/Costa Rica 6 against the worst 3 other sides Defense: 13 total goals against/5 against Mexico/Costa Rica '06 Road 6 Road Goals 1 against Mexico/Costa Rica 5 against Bottom 3 Defense: 6 total goals against/5 against Mexico/Costa Rica '02 Road 2 Road Goals* 0 against Mexico/Costa Rica 2 against Bottom 3 Defense: 8 Total Goals Against/3 against Mexico/Costa Rica '98 Road: 6 Road Goals 2 against Mexico/Costa Rica 4 against Bottom 3 Defense: 10 goals against/5 against Mexico Costa Rica
My guess is that you will get what you want. My guess is it will look a lot like 2015/16. They will claim they will put their best foot forward but keeping a few guys with full team will severely hamper the team. On the other side it will slow the integration of the young players. We will get CP, WM, TA, and Dest with full team and we will get the same story on the rest of the guys on why they are with the u23s. It isnt just about who watches live. It is also the extra coverage and the experience the players would get. A strong showing in 2020 would bring higher expectations and interest in 2024. The 2024 side could include reyna, llanez, and 3 over age players to make 5 returning players.
It isnt taking the foot off the gas, but multiple things such that we get the best long term result. Yes, things bounce the wrong way often in this game. However, the margin for error is very large. There is a reason in prior cycles that we guaranteed qualifying by the 8th or 9th game. We should be able to easily get 15 points off the bottom three teams. The points we get off Mexico and CR are more than enough to cover bad breaks. Why is it that European sides who play a similar format can have quite few of the top teams coming away with more than 25 points? I would assume because the format requires winning the group or being a top second place team to go into a playoff. They dont have this silly notion that you play for a tie on the road. I'd bet if we went out to win on the road we would would end up with more than the 5 points the hoping for a tie would get us. I dont take anything away from the Gold Cup. That team was no where near what we can field now and definitely not what we can have in 8 months. I think the team I suggested without the top u23s and overage players is much better than the Gold Cup squad.
I didnt say Arena was the only issue, it was the one that could have been fixed in 2017. The point about the pool of prime players was was very true.... this is why Arena's actions were so egregious. The pool was shrinking and he chose to eliminate players. It wasnt just that we didnt qualify it is that he seemed more interested in marketing MLS than winning. Why were there 17 MLS players on the roster for the last two games? Why were Villafana, Gonzo, and Nagbe starting those games when FJ, Cameron and Jones available. People say that Jones was old and coming off injury, but I cant think of a player in USMNT history I would have wanted available for must win games in competition everyone now is saying is so difficult. He was a player that set the tone for the team and wouldnt allowed the complacency to sink in. I dont think it was one game. Losing points in the first game against Mexico hurt, but the performance at home against CR where we lost points was miserable. The performance at Honduras was abysmal, but we lucked out with poor tactics and sneaking a late goal. Remember that was the game that neither Wood or Cameron started. They were both subbed on with Cameron during up the defense (to never be played again) and Wood got the late equalizer. I was at the CR game and it was clear the central midfield pairing of bradley and Nagbe was awful. They play with no urgency, even when down late and had no bite defensively. The issue on the road was with how the team was set. They were playing for ties with Pulisic isolated outside without service from an anemic midfield. What confuses me is that from May 2014 every was Klinsmans fault and people dont remember any successes and yet there is a bunch of hand waving for Arena. JK saw the issue and spoke of the lost generation. He tries very hard to find replacement in the first year of the cycle. He gave a lot of new players chances in the Gold Cup and was blasted for the results. The Copa side was quite good and we played Mexico even at home. The view was he had to be fired because the pool was the deepest ever. Then suddenly in 2017, these same people decide it is the pool when Arena was the man that weakened it unnecessarily.
No way in Hell! Olympics success has been historically important in this country and even though it's not what it was it's still pretty important. Additionally, it is even important in sports that are not necessarily the high visibility ones. If you don't believe this, you either weren't around or don't remember 1980 very well. It is perfect for reinvigorating the US soccer fan.
For a gymnast or swimmer, of course. Or a downhill skier. It is the only time anyone in the country pays attention to you. It is a chance to make money. But Olympic Men's soccer is not any of those sports. The timing of the competition is all wrong. A win in the first game of the Hex would go further in "invigorating" the fan than Olympic success. If things go right for Reyna from here, he will be on the USMNT for the Hex. If things take a step back or fall apart, he could be in Tokyo with the Olympic team. The latter would not be a "win" for him or American soccer. A gold medal would probably only put him further behind at Dortmund and thus with the USMNT.
I’d really love go to all Euro in March and see this... Pulisic-Sargent-Gio Wes-Adams-Holmes AR-Brooks-x-Dest Steffen
Golazo. He’s a special player...that was ClintDempseyesque. He already had some size at his age...I can see him used as a #9 for the Yanks. He looks like the real deal and he plays with competitive confidence, which the US sorely lacks.