They can beat any team in CL, the problem is they usually lose to the weaker teams. They have a better records vs the top 15 teams in Europe the past few years than teams worse than them.
There´s a good possibility that Bundesliga surpasses Serie A in the next two or three years, you just have to take a look at the UEFA Country Ranking. # country 04/05 05/06 06/07 07/08 08/09 ranking teams 3 Italy 14.000 15.357 11.928 10.250 11.375 62.910 8 4 Germany 10.571 10.437 9.500 13.500 12.062 56.070 2/ 8 Thats the current ranking for 2009. Bundesliga can still gain points for 08/09 through Bremen and Hamburg while all italian sides are out of the competition already. The most interesting part are the seasons 04/05 and 05/06, very good years for Serie A and only mediocre ones for Bundesliga. 2009 is the last year in which the 04/05 season is involved and so Bundesliga will gain 3.5 points on Serie A in 2010 without doing anything. In 2011 Bundesliga will gain nearly 5 points because 05/06 phases out. If Bundesliga and Serie A perform equally in the next two years then Bundesliga will surpass Serie A. So there is a good possibility for the german teams IF they do their job and get more or less the same points as the italian sides in the near future but I wouldn´t bet on it cause predictions don´t last long in football/soccer
Because Bundesliga was never in the top 3 or 2 or even the best league since the football was created right? Let me guess, 5-6 years since you started watching football, at least you would have an excuse for the post you made.
Using historical precedents as an argument for European rankings is pointless, especially in this century. Of course German teams have been on top before but the past is the past and as long as German clubs are restrained from spending more then what they earn; they will not cross that competitive threshold, (at least not any time soon). On top of that Germany is not producing enough talented players domestically to compensate for its limitations on imported players. So when a player like Diego makes his inevitable move to another league (according to reports its most likely Juventus) there is no adequate replacement in the cards and so Wereder is likely to drop a few notches because thats what happens when your most talented player is not there. Look; Italian clubs are in a serious slump so these kind of threads are expected. However, slumps end eventually and when that happens I expect some balance to be restored in European football (at least in the elite level). As for the UEFA Cup Serie A and Bund are pretty much even although I still think mid table teams in Italy have the majority of more talented players.
Really, is that why one German team will be in the UEFA final unlike no Italian teams even making the quarter final? That is wrong in every way. Germany currently has some of the best youth players coming out of the country in the past decade, both in quantity and quality. So far they have been doing pretty well and are only getting better, so you saying that they won't basically shows that bias can really cloud one's view. Diego could go, he might not even go. Diego if he goes will be very expensive, not sure if Juve can pay that amount according to reports. I guess Werder Bremen is going to drop a few notches just like Hamburg when they lost Van Der Vaart and are currently in CL qualification spot at the moment. Ohh wait, they actually got stronger by improving other areas on the field and making the team play as one. Simple question, what is there to stop Werder Bremen from doing so? When Hamburg lost their most talented player and improved, why would the same not happen for Bremen, because it isn't possible or just simply because you don't want to see Serie A as the 4th best in Europe and predict anything regarding to German teams as a negative one? You are right they are in a slump and will definitely improve now. This season along Serie A teams were unlucky to play EPL teams and Fiorentina to be in such a tough group, I doubt they will be as unlucky next season. Also, Milan the European giants will be back next season. In UEFA Cup if you look these past few years, they definitely are not equal but Bundesliga is above Serie A. Of coarse you think mid-table Serie A clubs have more talented players, you are an Italian fan. They are both pretty even imo, but it's tough to really decide who has the most talented youngsters. If Bremen win UEFA this year, that means both Bremen and Leverkusen will both be there next season. Schalke as a UEFA team should definitely be frightening if they get a capable coach. The possibility of Bundesliga passing Serie A in 1-3 year(s) is very possible and it's quite ignorant to say otherwise when Germany has gotten more points than Serie A for 2 years running. I'm not saying Germany will, but it's definitely a possibility.
The problem here is that the Italian clubs aren't exactly swimming in money anymore, either. Inter, Milan and Juve are not only worse than the English big 4 and the Spanish top 2 on the pitch (well, Real's as bad as the Italians in that category...), they are also falling way behind in revenue - the difference between ManU, Arsenal, Barca, Real and Italys richest Milan is already 100 mio in revenue. I doubt Berlusconi & Co will be willing to throw enough money in to make up for the difference. And as for the clubs participating in the UEFA Cup: There, the Germans are already richer. And for the ranking, there's hardly difference between success in the 2 cups. Which brings up another point: a lot of Italian clubs play 2nd string sides in UEFA Cup... Germans don't do that. Which is a main reason why we are at a point where Italy can lose the 4th CL birth in the first place: 5 first round exits for Italy in the last 3 years, 3 for Germany, 1 semifinalist and 1 quarterfinalist in 3 years for Italy, 4 semis and 2 quarters for Germany. All in all, I think the Italians are better right now than the Germans, certainly the CL clubs. But I doubt their slump compared to the English + Barca is just a very short term thing, I'd be less surprised about Bayern winning the CL in the next 5 years than an Italian team. After that, who knows, but it's within the next 5 years that Italy might drop to #4. 2nd rounds and quarterfinals in CL may not be enough to make up for UEFA Cup results like Italy had lately.
Right, I think its unlikely the Bundesliga teams will do as well as Serie "A" sides in the CL the next couple of years. A while ago I predicted that Germany would pass Italy in the coefficients, but I now rescind that prediction beacuse Italy has gotten their shit back together much faster than I expected. As Equilibrium said, if Italy doesn't get a brutal draw and bad luck (PK loss to Arsenal) in the CL they probably would've sent a couple teams to the quarters this season - and that's without Milan playing in the CL.
Wow a German team is playing in a UEFA Cup final. What do you want from me? A cookie? First off using Germany's current best over a decade isn't exactly a world class barometer for analyzing tomorrows best. Secondly I don't consider myself a person who's incredibly verse in Bund dialogue (regarding its promising youth) but I reckon I know the who's who of tomorrows potential best and I honestly can't think of any German players at all who belong in the same sentence as Alexander Pato, Theo Walcott, Bojan and Sebastian Giovinco. You're not seriously comparing Diego to VDV are you? The fact that VDV was the best player on any team is a tragedy in itself to be perfectly honest with you. Anythings possible in the world of football but like I said I just don't think its going to happen. You believe my prognosis is biased but I prefer to think that the power of private ownership combined with a very talented class of U21 players will tell the difference. You say that Germans youth elect are good but even if thats true I don't think its enough.
Revenue is irrelevant when you have private owners like Moratti and Berlusconi who are financially in the same bracket as Abromovich (give or take). Juventus is self sufficient but the majority of ownership belongs to the Agnelli family. You may have heard of them because they own FIAT. Theoretically they are very rich except unlike Inter and Milan, Juventus tries to avoid an annual deficit. Ultimately we haven't been given any real clarity about how the economy has affected all these big clubs which tells me that until there's more transparency regarding finances, all this talk about EPL teams covering their costs has to be put on hold. Yeah and to answer why they do that is because Serie A is a bitch of league where good attacking football (a footballing practice that appears systematic with winning football in Europe) will get you nowhere unfortunately, but that's a conversation for another day. Ask yourself this question: Is English dominance in Europe a reflection of Premiership quality or is it because the rest of Europea have been downright crap? Personally I belive its a combination of both leaning more towards the latter argument which tells me that its only a matter of time before Bayern, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Inter, and Juventus get their feet firmly planted on the ground and start producing again on the continental stage.
It's true that the revenue is not everything, but irrelevant? Berlusconi & Co really would put 100 mio € + into their clubs each and every year? And it's really not like there are no rich owners in England. I agree, though I think it leans more towards the first argument And like I said earlier, Germany has the chance to grab Italys CL birth within the next 2-3 seasons. We are not talking about mid- or longterm predictions here. I'm not an expert in Serie A football, but I have seen little that makes me believe that Italians will challenge the CL title on short notice, neither did I see that Italians (be it fans, players or officials) started to really care about the UEFA Cup. The only thing speaking for the Italians is that they really had some bad draws in CL lately. On the other hand I see more and more German teams that I can easily see reaching far into the future Europa league. BTW, I don't want to say it's a certain thing, and even if we get a 4th CL place, I'd predict Italy to get it back within a couple of years, but I do not think it's a very unlikely event.
No, I don't want a cookie man. I just don't want to hear someone state things that are incorrect so they look like fools. I was actually trying to help you out. Ok, considering the German youth teams are winning and going to semi-finals/finals on the regular basis the past 2-3 years, I would say I can compare it to them and also the world as they definitely (according to their recent achievements) one of the top youth teams in the world. See what I'm listing here are facts, whether you want to see it or turn your cheek the other way. It seems you completely and utterly clueless about anything regarding the league. Strikers Germany don't really have too many young guys, but Gomez is 23 and has been Bundesliga Player of the year 2 years ago, scored 27 goals last season and has 30 so far this season. There is also Marin who unfortunately is at a small team now but is surely going to go to a big club in the summer, Milan being heavily following him which makes me wonder why if he's a nobody according to you... Ozil (20) is also another star in the making as he's basically improved to no end, becoming Bremen's 2nd most important player after Diego. Also a 19 year old is currenly based on Kicker ratings THE best defender in the league. How's that for a good youth player? The problem here is that you know nothing about the German league, and you try to talk about differences between our league and the others.. Doing this is why you make constant mistakes and look utterly clueless in many instances. They have been nearly at the same level for the time both have spent in the Bundesliga, Diego probably edging it but not by much. I'm just glad you watched Diego own Udinese for 2 whole games to have a great idea of just how good he is though! I never said Germany will pass Italy, it's just a good possibility. Germany have a very talented U-21 as well. I can't predict the future, unlike someone who tries to when he doesn't even know half the story.
I already said that private owners can afford to cover defecits whereas most clubs have to operate within strict limitations. If Inter and Arsenal are bidding on the same player, Arsenal is paying out from "potential revenue" which the bank of England uses as insurance when it makes the transaction whereas Inter pays out right from Moratti's wallet. Between the two who do you think has more spending power? The guy who's borrowing money or the guy who's paying cash? The only exceptions from Britain are Chelsea and Man City although Man City is a moot example because they're likely to not be in European league conversations for a long time. Let me simplify it for you. Between Germany and Italy who has the best chance of excelling in the Champions League? On one hand you have Bayern, on the other you have Juventus, Milan and Inter. No matter what your impressions are the reality is Serie A's elite have more spending power, the better players and are by and large more competitive. Milan alone is a perrennial European power almost every year. Basically for Bund to surpass Serie A German clubs would have to dominate UEFA Cup for the next 3-4 years. Its possible but like I said before: I doubt it.
I hate to break it to you but U21 tourneys and the Olympics are an overrated source of information when gauging youth players. I'm assuming that was the data you were indirectly referring to because outside of that there really aren't any viable examples of young German quality. I say that because none of them play for top clubs (I don't know a lot about German football but I know at least that much) let alone top clubs in foreign leagues. I brought up Pato and the like not only because they're incredibly talented but because they're playing in major roles for prestigious teams (either as a starter or off the bench). The real problem is you fail to recognize Serie A as being the more competitive league. Instead you look at the leagues recent deficiences in Europe and automatically assume that Serie A is more or less on par with Germany so of course U21 players in Germany must be as good or better right? I don't know what your point here is? Without Diego Werder doesn't feature in the knockout stages let alone beat Udinese. What I know is you're putting too much into the recent failings of Italian clubs abroad without looking at the content and circumstances.
I have to say I must applaud you for basically skipping half of my information entirely and only focusing on other points I made. Nice attempt I must say. How is the main source of competition for youth players overrated in any way? This simply doesn't make sense at all as this is what sets the standard of what which countries usually have the best youth players. You don't know anything about German football and no you don't know that much. You don't know anything at all, which is why you look so clueless while discussing this topic. Ozil (20) plays for Bremen who bar this season's screw up, has been one of the best teams for Germany these recent years and have beaten some of the biggest teams (especially your lovely Italian teams) in the world usually in the group stages. He's their 2nd best player. Neuer (23) plays for Schalke and was the best keeper in the league 2 years ago (when he was 21), also being one of the best in the league both last and this season. You might remember him vs Porto last season, he pulled a 1-man performance vs Porto that none of the goalkeepers in Serie A bar Buffon have ever achieved or will ever be able to. You can see some highlights on youtube if you didn't watch the entire game. Schafer (24) plays for the current Bundesliga leader and is the 2nd best in the league in his position only to Lahm (who is another who plays for Bayern and only Evra is on his level). Howedes (19) plays for Schalke and has been top 3 defenders in the league this season. Leverkusen- Adler (24) is one of the best young goalkeepers in the world and fighting for the #1 at the moment for Germany. Stuttgart- Tasci (22) plays for a team fighting for a top 3 spot, Khedira (22) has been Stuttgart's best midfielder this season and a major reason of them being title contenders, Gomez (23) like I have mentioned has been a goal scoring legend the past 3 seasons even winning the best player in the league when they won the trophy when he was 21. He scored 30 goals so far this season, anyone in Italy score that much yet this season? Hamburg- Boateng (20) One of the best in RB in the league, Jansen (23) since being moved to LM has been scoring some very important goals and being an added spark of creativity other than Trochowski in midfield. By the way, I only used German talents so I don't further embarrass you as you also think these young guys can only do well only at U-level. The sad thing is you even admit not knowing anything and still try to argue about something that you need to know about. Serie A being more competitive than Bundesliga? Now you're really filling the bullsh#t meter way too much man. Germany has 5 teams at the top that separate them by a 3 point difference! Italy imo has a bit more quality in their league no doubt when it comes to the top 3 teams as opposed to only Bayern Munich. I was clearly making fun of you as the only reason you really know how good Diego is because you watched him play in only 2 games vs Udinese, or maybe 4 as Bremen kicked Milan out of UEFA as well. The point was simply sarcasm as you try to rate Diego and Vdv in the Bundesliga when you are clueless in every aspect on how well they have played or helped their teams out these past seasons. And what I know is that you know nothing about Bundesliga in any way, shape or form and should stop comparing it to another league as it's getting only more depressing and embarrassing. You will at least save some embarrassment.
It seems like you already forgot that Werder beat Inter without Diego (and last year: Real). Werder has some serious problems this season, but I actually think Diegos position is the one they need to worry the least about... Özil might not be Diegos level just yet, but he isn't that far behind.
Its overrated because very few players who feature in those tournaments actually become iconic players at the elite level. In most cases the players who are really, really good tend to have short stints at the U21 level and are immediately sent to train with the senior national teams. This transition is usually influenced by big clubs acquiring these players to fill in important roles. It seems that you and I have a fundamental disagreement about what an elite team is in the European context. Werder Bremen, in all its glory, has never been an elite European club. The only European trophy to their name is a Cup winners Cup in '92 and a round of 16 knockout appearance in the Champions League during the '05 season. They get a couple of notable results here and there but by and large they are a stingy team on the pitch masquearding as a top European club. So basically I don't put much credence when you say that Ozil is the next best thing because he's still playing for Bremen while only managing to amass 4 goals in 35 appearances. Yeah settling for group stage victories isn't going to get you to the big show. More to the point outside of Bayern there isn't a German club that has the resources to make the final in today's European climate. (note: Bayern barely has the resources either but they can afford to make significant improvements unlike their Bund counterparts). I could give you a whole sleuth of talented Italian players to rebuttle with but my point stays the same; until any of these players are featuring at the elite European level on an elite club, all this talk is wishful thinking. At the moment I'll take Santon, Giovinco, Balotelli and Pato over anything Bayern or Bremen/Shalke has in the works. Gomez, however, is extremely hot right now so will see what happens to him in the offseason. (he might be the exception). Inter's dominance is a reflection of Juventus and Milan having to rebuild and re-mold their starting 11 more than Inter being the better club. Moreso mid table teams in Italy make it extremely hard for elite clubs to get results away from home. For example I like Napoli and Genoa's chances of upsetting Inter more than I like Hamburg or Dortmund's chances of upsetting Bayern. Ironically I didnt' even watch the game between Werder and Udinese. However I don't think I need that game to tell me that Diego is one of most (or the most) talented players in Germany today. More talented than VDV could ever hope to be. I think you need to be more objective. Your argument on Bundesliga surpassing Serie A in UEFA ranking has more to do with you "hoping" it happens than it actually happening.
Yeah, Ozil is an awesome talent and the way he is progressing at the moment is really frightening! All I hope he becomes a better goal-scorer by improving his finishing with time, he will be big in the future. Now to the hard headed Italian who isn't willing to learn.. It's true few become iconic players. Marin has already been called into the national team and is only a matter of time before he becomes a starter for Germany. Adler is currently fighting for the #1 spot, Neuer is basically just a "why hasn't he been called yet" rather than if he's good enough for the national team. A lot of those players have also been called up a few times, Schweini/Lahm (24) both are currently starters. All the players I listed are very important for the U-21 with a "matter of time" tag of when they will join the national team or actually being in the transition stage into the national team like Marko Marin for example. You don't know this, which is why this argument is directly thrown out of the window and all the way down to the garbage can. Jesus, stop embarrassing yourself with Wikipedia man, it doesn't make you look like you know anything about him... You wanted players in OUR LEAGUE that were good enough, or do you want to put quotes of yourself asking for this? I listed ONLY German players who are young and shining like no other in the top 8 teams in the Bundesliga. We were talking about the Bundesliga improving and you saying they don't have the young players to do so. Bremen has been the 2nd best German team only behind Bayern the past 4 or so years, and Ozil has become their 2nd most important player only behind Diego at the age of 20 years old. Stop pulling excuses out of your ass whenever you find out how flawed your logic is, it's freaking pathetic. Either way, these German teams have enough money to do better than Italy in UEFA Cup these past few years. Elite? They are staying at their clubs to improve the german league so they can pass the Italian league, I thought that was the point. I don't think they have to go to Inter/United/Barca/Real etc.. to please some clueless Italian fan about how good they are. They are young kids kicking ass in the German league and improving it, they are also young, progressing and getting even better which hopefully will improve the league, something you say can't happen. Hopefully with these young players, this could be achieved in the future and there won't just be "one German heavyweight" in Champions League.. Heres the proof, now I'll wait for another way for you to change this information into something totally irrelevant and hopefully more Wikipedia "facts" you will unleash upon me. At least I'm getting someone to learn more about the Bundesliga! LOL Well lets see shall we. Howedes (19) has been one of the 3 best CB in the league this season, how the f#ck does that compare to what Santon has achieved this season? Both Germany and Italy have amazing talents dude, both have some young and incredible players that could grow up to be some of the best in the world in their positions. Will they? Who knows, but you sure as hell aren't the judge of it dude. You know nothing about one league, what makes you think any football would take your opinion seriously? Or let me ask this, how can you compare 2 leagues when you are entirely clueless about 1 league? That doesn't make sense. And by the way, I'm not saying one league definitely has the better talents and Italy may even have better talents. Who really knows.. Well you certainly don't, but you get what I mean. We lost to Hannover who is in 13th place this season. Cottbus who was 2nd from last place just beat Wolfsburg who is still in first place last weekend. You look way too silly discussing this man, you make this too easy for me. You probably watched the Milan games instead to make your decision. :S I'm definitely hoping, what German fan wouldn't be? You're being totally biased by not knowing half the story, that is much worse than me hoping the league can go 3rd for as long as possible. I'm also not saying they will, but it definitely is a possibility and I still haven't heard an argument from you to prove this theory wrong.
I really don't care...I don't rate practically any of them. You keep inferring that I'm using Wikipedia as a resource for my counter argument when really my overall point is that there is little to no illumunation in the German youth player market because they're just not that good (yet.) It was a mistake for you to bring up Schweinstieger who is basically one of the most overrated German players in recent memory. Philip Lahm is good if you like "Gary Neville" clones. Considering the hype that followed these guys they haven't really lived up to it. This is exaclty what I said: "On top of that Germany is not producing enough talented players domestically to compensate for its limitations on imported players. So when a player like Diego makes his inevitable move to another league (according to reports its most likely Juventus) there is no adequate replacement in the cards and so Wereder is likely to drop a few notches because thats what happens when your most talented player is not there." I was referring to the lack of player compensation for the abscence (or inevitable absence) of talented imports (or money to be exact). You believe that Ortiz will fill in Diego's shoes whereas I do not believe it. Therefore I think that in all probability Werder will be less competitive in top European competition when Diego is sold. Its really not that complicated. Yes Bremen has been the 2nd best next to Bayern which is a real bloody tragedy if you think about it. If you're counting on Bremen to reproduce what Dortmund and Leverkusen did for German football on the European stage in the late 90's/early 2000 than you're kidding yourself. And Italian teams have enough to counter back. Roma and Genoa will be in the UEFA Cup next year and no matter how confident you are these are tough clubs to beat. The point is having enough talented domestic players (young or old) combined with quality foreign imports fueling your heavyweight representative (in Germany's case its Bayern) is really your best shot at winning. Similar to Milan being Italy's best shot 2 years ago while having a strong Italian guard in catalyst roles (Pirlo/Gattuso). Little Ortiz and Khedira are not good enough to help Bayern to glory (if Bayern were to aquire them) let alone good enough to propel either Werder or Stuttgart to European prominence. As of right now these young players and their respective clubs cannot match its Euopean conterparts in the Champions League, at least not today. You're the one who's tried to mutate this discussion into league measuring whereas I've tried to keep it about the European rankings. The only thing that hasn't changed in Italy in the last...forever, is that its still the hardest league to score goals in. Therefore in most cases its mid table and even bottom feeders who's only sole purpose is to stop the like of Serie A's best from scoring on the day. This reality has always put a great deal of strain on Italian clubs who can actually score goals in open play which provides some transparency about why some Italian clubs are expected to do well abroad aren't up to fitness standards etc. I'm as good or bad as the next football critic but until any of these players garnish some European notoriety (like Giovinco did against Chelsea in the knockouts) then it pretty much comes down to subjective analysis. You've made it very evident that your passionate about the future of German football and God willing perharps it will eventually be realized but in terms of it being good enough to surpass Italy in the rankings; like I keep saying: "I doubt it".
I should basically just end the argument after reading one of the dumbest statements I have read since coming into BigSoccer, Lahm a Neville clone? Your ignorance is starting to irritate me even though I find it strangely amusing at the same time. I'm not even going to comment on such stupidity. Schweinsteiger was one of the best players in Euro 08, better than all 5 of your starting midfielders that played for Italy. He's been average club level though, I'll give you that. How are they not good yet? I state facts by listing that the German youth teams have flourished these past few years in tournaments they have been in, I state how in all top 8 clubs, there are several German players both young and old that are very important to their clubs and helping them achieve their goals, and I list young international players who are even at the German international team. You basically discredit everything by spewing nothing short of utter bullsh#t like Lahm not living up to his hype? I think you're purposely trying to piss me off, because I don't think anyone can say such stupid things at a consistent level. I really am starting to believe this. Here are the facts dude, whether they lived up or not they are starting in the team that made the final of Euro 08. Where was Italy's youngsters helping Italy make it to the final? How on earth can you believe it? You don't know how good Ozil is or don't watch him. If you are totally clueless about the player, what makes you think you "completely and utterly guessing for the sake of it" saying Ozil won't be will give you any credentials at all? It's not that complicated? Don't give me this sh#t man because you never watched the kid play, you don't know how talented he and anything you say is completely and utterly invalid as you are totally clueless about the entire situation. Anything is possible, their record vs the big teams is one of the best in the world. "Wikipedia" it first and you'll see yourself. They win/tie or just lose to all the big teams and only fail vs the average teams. If they can find that little bit of consistency and maturity, it is very much possible for them to go to quarter final or round 16 consistently. Possibility doesn't always happen though. Considering you know sh#t all about the team, you still have no say in this matter either. Definitely, I can see Roma even winning it if they concentrate hard on the UEFA next year. We will see what happens though, so far German clubs have had the upper hand these past 2 years in the competition. First of all, the other German clubs don't need to win it. If Bayern "hypothetically" make the semi-final next year, we just need 1 other German club to make the quarter final and another to make the round of 16/or go 3rd and play in the UEFA Cup afterwards. Ozil and Khedira need to play for their own clubs, not Bayern. Whether they are good enough or not, you have no clue at all about this. Let me state it again, you know nothing about them and shouldn't explain how good they are to anyone. Today they cannot no doubt. The clubs are improving and them making it out of the group stage would be enough imo for the other 2 German clubs. Hell, I will be happy if 1 German club bar Bayern makes it out of the group stages. Right and all this filler, useless post is irrelevant to that discussion. You said how you couldn't see the bad German teams beating the best German teams in the league unlike the Italian league, and I just threw that argument quickly outside the window with 2 quick examples. Thanks for changing the topic once again though.... Giovinco had a good 30 minutes, yet he's still inconsistent for his club and will take a while before he shines. Ozil for 1 game vs Milan was very, very good but unfortunately it wasn't the Champions League for people like you to cream over. Giovinco is rightfully thought as a bigger talent atm no doubt as he plays for a bigger club. Here is the point you unfortunately cannot grasp no matter how much I simplify it. You know absolutely nothing about the Bundesliga or hardly any players in it, nothing. Considering you know absolutely nothing about the league, you cannot properly compare it to Serie A as you look like a fool most of the time when so many statements are silly and inaccurate. The second I tell you how wrong you are, you tend to change the topic or change your explanation to something different and many times irrelevant out of pure desperation. Until you even learn the basics of one league, comparing it to another is absolutely ridiculous.
This, I can't stand for. No one is better than Simone Perrotta as a trequartista! We don't use youngsters until we crash and burn horrifically with the old guard. Holland game was a good example. A great example, actually. Carry on.
Interesting that you concede the point I've been trying to make all along in your last paragraph after stockpiling a nonsensical diatribe to discredit my lack of Bund knowledge when it was never relevant to the original discussion. The irony is I doubt you'd be able to find many posters on the boards who can lay claim to being informed "Bund followers" let alone a person like me who can take German football at face value. What you fail to understand is that despite my supposed lack of knowledge in German football it doesn't help that neither the players you mentioned climbing the ranks of popularity (or even perhaps the ones you haven't listed) have been publicised in European media or discussed about in football forums (in a general sense). I would know because I'm envolved in practically all mediums either officially or by hobby. What it comes down to is: until these young German hopefuls turn heads (and I mean the heads of the world) you're just simply not going to get the benefit of the doubt by me or anyone else. Its not because they're playing in Germany (Diego plays in Germany and he's renound the world over) its because they haven't been exposed yet. Thats all it is and all that really matters in the end. Ulitmately you can harp about your personal wealth of Bundesliga data all you want, you haven't given any convincing arguments that Germany will surpass Italy in the European rankings except for a lot of "ifs" and "mayby's".
None of us could care less, if you or other people know about these players. Fact is they are developing well and even outperforming italians in the youth stages. Whether they are exposed in europe or not is completely irrelevant, i would say even positive because of the sourrounding hype by it. And they actually are making a name for themselves. I have heard many german, spanish even american papers talking about the likes of Marin, Polanski and Ozil only to name a few. Just recently Savio Nsereko from Brescia was all over the news from around the world. Just because you have no clue about football except for the Big 3 and CL doesnt mean even better players cant develop outside of it. Regarding the 3rd place. It is indeed quite difficult, but i would not say impossible. We will have to see how thing develop.