Cheers. I'd noticed that Netzer compilation myself only recently and it definitely seems a good one to get the best possible understanding of his qualities.
So? Is there a problem with shots deflection and earned penalties? According to the football regulation they are accredited as assist. Assist is assist. Doesn't matter if it bounced off the bar or got deflected from a defender. Be born in mind that the definition of a foul ending in a PK are credited as assist by FA and FIFA regulations. In any case, out of the 14 assist there is not one single bounce/deflection example to be found and there are in total around 3 assists resulting from PKs he did not take himself which resulted from foul play on him in the box. These PKs were given to Koeman and Stoichkov to score. There are a few assist resulting from foul outside the box resulting to Freekicks taken by Koeman and Stoichkov. Overall there are a handful of world class assist that are of high quality e.g through ball, header assist, killer passes. Again the 14 assist are all scrutinized by watching the videos over and over again. I got the full match videos (and so does @leadleader ) and we made sure to objectively scrutinize and made sure to leave out pre-assists and borderline cases. For the definition of assist read "Criteria" and the FIFA section in the Wiki article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assist_(football) Compare? That is a homework I cannot afford right now. Too busy with home front chores. The dates for Romario's assist are clear and loud in the original post you responded to. You can find all of them on youtube or dailymotion by searching the match dates. Or you can purchase the full matches online. For the record, R9 took around 4 PKs shots himself in 96/97. His total official assist (including PKs) in that season was around 10. If his earned PKs, deflection shots and bounce off the goal posts, were to be taken out he would have way way less than 10 assist.
In my opinion Gerd Muller's case as a top 20 all timer is strong. But I can mention a few other players names here who have done similar to Gerd Muller with club and country. So if the consensus comes to the conclusion that Muller is a strong contender for top 20 rankings than we would have to revise our stand and views on these other players I referred to. If two players have scored as many goals, won as many trophies, being equally clutch for club and country, have similar technique, with the same longevity, than by default they should be ranked in the same bracket.
A very neat find! This may also be interesting, in 1974 Netzer scored five times out of six in the "target shooting competition" which German channel ZDF holds with its guests since 1963. As a comparison, here's how Pelé did in 1970 (starts at 02:11)
Very good way of describing Müller's mindset: scoring as many goals as possible. By the way, he did not care about the opponent. Even if it was a completely meaningless test game he had the same attitude: to score as many goals as possible. There's a nice story related by his teammates about Müller's attitude. In 1972-73, the German domestic season would start only in mid-September instead of mid-August because of the 1972 Olympics held in Munich. To kill off time the German FA introduced a League Cup which was an unknown competition in Germany at that point. The Bayern professionals were not very keen on engaging in this competition any longer than necessary so right before the decisive group game against little town club "Bayern Hof" they conspired to lose that game deliberately. Ten Bayern players on the pitch were intending to let Hof win, the 11th player though, Gerd Müller, was unaware about his teammates' plan because they knew he would not have wanted any of that, losing deliberately and so, so they tried to keep Müller out of the game as much as possible without him getting suspicious. Still, Müller scored 3 goals in Bayern's 4-5 loss to the minnows from Hof, and almost managed to ruin his teammates' plan!
I'm not old enough to know the answer first hand, but here's what I'll say. Both men first got votes for the Ballon D'or in 1967, and the last time any of them got votes was in 1977. Here's who was ahead in votes each year: 1967: Muller 1968: Tie 1969: Muller 1970: Muller 1971: Cruyff 1972: Muller 1973: Cruyff 1974: Cruyff 1975: Cruyff 1976: Cruyff 1977: Cruyff Overall, Cruyff finished above Muller more than Muller finished above Cruyff. But it seems like Muller may actually have been considered superior for the first half of that time period, when Cruyff was at Ajax. Once Cruyff went to Barcelona, he started being consistently considered better than Muller.
@el cabezon @Gregoriak @PDG1978 I just watched that compilation of Netzer. What a player!!! Those long lofted balls remind me of Pirlo (and from the matches I have seen of Netzer, I don't think this video just cherry picked stuff he only did occasionally) and the powerful dribbling runs remind me of Zidane. That was a great video!
ist true that müller allways had the mentally to win games and the will scoring Goals in all competitions inclusive friendlys..this confirm for me what a proffesional Player müller was...ist olso worth to mention how often he has played injury handicapped in games for Bayern munich if the Club has needed him ... the Story above makes me a bit angry and is in my opinion not really believable..more misleading than something else..such Argumentation of teamates is olso unfair against Gerd müller and unfair against the Club and the Players of Bayern Hof where beat Bayern munich twice back in this days...there are other reasons as well if we analyze the Situation of the preseason where Bayern munich has played avarage for 1 month, 1 game per 2 days..thats ridiculos.. it dosent make sense deliberate loosing against Bayern Hof at all....normally it was a homegame for munich but due the olympic games 1972 this game was played in Bamberg (more hostile for Bayern Hof than munich)..Bayern munich has played without hoeness(member of the german olympic Team), without schwarzenbeck and without sepp maier..Bayern Hof was runner up in the regional leaque süd and has played Playoff games for the german Bundesliga..a minnow Team but technical the 25th best german Team for the Season..müller has scored 3 Goals and the soreline was a 3:3....Bayern Hof with this result was still ranked above Bayern munich in the Group..in fact it was Krauthausen where scored the 4:3 lead..this is in Opposition of a argumentation 10 Bayern Players wanted to loose deliberatly and Gerd müller not...Bayern munich didnt Need to loose this game to be eliminated ...this argumentation is Nonsens..Bayern munich olso has created a Penalty in this game, but no Information who has created this Penalty..if not müller ?? who has created the Penalty?no informaion..? Roth has missed the Penalty...important is olso :Bayern Hof has created a Penalty as well but wasnt sucesful..so the question is :why Bayern keeper scoric has saved this Penalty for the Bayern munich if the arumentation is 10 Bayern Players wanted deliberate loosing this game and Gerd müller not ??or has Bayern Hofs Penalty shooter shoting the ball in the sky of Bamberg..???Bayern Hof has scored the gamewinning Goal in Minute 88 and won 5:4..i repeat: Bayern munich didnt Need to loose this game to be eliminated...thats very disrespectful Argumentation in big parts against Bayern Hofs Players game and olso disrespectful against Gerd müller if Bayern munich wins this final liga Cup game against bayern Hof ,the Team tops the group and Plays maximal 5 other Liga Cup games inclusive final..not a ridiculos amount of games in a period of time where munich hasent played a shitload of games.. the next Opponents in quarterfinal was schalke 04 , Hamburg semifinal and Gladbach final...Bayern Hof has played both games against schalke 10.10 1972 and 18 .10 1972..in this timespan Bayern munich has played only 3 Bundesliga games in 14 days..not a possible exhausting Situation for munich if we put in perspective what a shitload of friendly games munich has played in preseason...the liga Cup final was played in sommer 1973, absolut no Problem for munich terminwise as welll ,...Bayern munich has played between Bundesliga games season 1972/73 away meanigless friendly games against Teams like sv aubing,asv Herzogenaurach or tsv Forstenried to get needed Money but deliberate loosing to Bayern Hof??? Bayern munich get more needed Money and more fame playing schalke, Hamburg or Gladbach in Liga Cup games (than playing this minnows )and the Chance to Play and a win a final in a competive Cup games...stupid Argumentation look the squad of Gladbach who has played 1973 the final against Hamburg and did loose 4:0 kleff,stieleke,sielloff,voigts,bonhof,kulik,danner,netzer,jennsen (simonson),rupp and heynckes..this good possible namewise was the best Gladbach team of alltime
That's a great anecdote Indeed, a truly remarkable player who doesn't quite get his fair dues imo. Even more than his absurd long range passing and his explosive runs, it's his vertical mentality and propensity for high-octane and fluid football which is truly captivating. One of those players whom you can never tire of watching.
I took the story from the Gerd Müller Biography issued last year. Have you read it? What do you think of it?
i have read the book..Overall a excellent book and very informative but reading this Story was suspect for me , definitiv not plausible in many Points for me and so i have checked the Situation of Bayern munich and the games of the Season inclusive this 4:5 game with a bit more Information and it prooved to me how misleading this Story is.. for Players from Bayern Hof of this game reading this Story must be a combinated excuse and cheapshot i can imagine... the first defeat of munich allready (4:1) was worth to be mentioned on the FrontPage of a kicker magacine -Blamage-but this defeat was more excusable due the day for day friendly games Prior... however Bayern Hof in regional leaque south was undefeated at home Season 1972 with 16 wins, 2 draws and additional won 2 games against Bayern,2 draws against Stuttgart and 1 draw and 1 deafeat against schalke in Liga Cup games..Bayern 1972 Bundesliga Champion,schalke runner up and Stuttgart 4th ranked in Bundesliga..
Yes and a big yes ... Muller was border line TOP10 to 20 ... (mid 15) Gerd Muller was some how underrated for his "less flashy" style ... but he was a true predator striker ever played Gerd Muller was among the TOP5 best of : big games players *along with Pele, R9, Puskas and Di stefano
R9 was definitely not top 5 big game player at club level he only had elite big game moments at international level Scored in 1 wc final and 2 copa America finals At club level there are a whole host of players who had better performances in big games and more consistently
müller in this study got a 3+ Rating..5.5 out of 10..however France Football gave him a 5 out of 6..so average he has a 4 Rating if we combinate both.....but puckvanheel in the past has pointed out sepp maier has played his game of life in the final 1974....the study placed sepp maier only slightly above Gerd müller, both bottom german rated players..???whats does that tell you?? if we put in perspective Holland has conceeded only a owngoal and a Penalty Prior and Gerd müller scored a gamewinning good Goal and if we put in perspective Gerd müller was additional recalled wrongfully a other good Goal (2 Yards onside)so there is no Need to suggest a average game of him i suggest ..Gerd müller olso has played way more tiring games in the Season than king johan or lato ..ect......incluse scoring keygoals in european Cup + final (great Performance of him) and german Bundesliga..Bayern has played 4 german Cup games , gerd müller was a crucial Player in 2 of this games..a 3:2 win him scoring 3 Goals and a 3:1 win him scoring 2 Goals..not shabby too.. do you think Gerd müller against australia did deserve a avarage 3 Rating he got?? only a question?? or how we judge the german - poland game where was played on horrible field condition..a lottery game for both teams...johan the king didnt Play a wc game under such bad conditions..the Germans and polands did..
I think the key goal and the way it was taken by Muller should be reflected partly in his rating (maybe the study under-played that aspect indeed) but the significance of it (and the value of a player like Muller) probably extends beyond what an average rating method would reflect (I think rightly an average rating method should consider the whole game although I wonder if nowadays the most significant moments are weighted very heavily by some and also by stats systems). I didn't feel watching the whole game that Muller was playing really great but that doesn't mean he wasn't crucial and yes he could have been rewarded further perhaps if not called offside (on the other hand maybe he should have been booked for a dive at one point IIRC). My estimate/perception would say in 1974 as well as 1970 Muller could have had a top 50 ever WC performance. But unlike for some players I haven't seen every minute of his play and I haven't watched the Australia game you refer to in full certainly. The pitch vs Poland did make things very difficult for both teams although it seems affected the German side less or they coped/adjusted better I think. But that goal by Muller was both impressive and crucial again. I like/rate his goals better from 1974 than 1970 overall actually even though there are fewer of them.
funny...i think ?? i remember your Rating pele Performance a 4 or 5 out of 6 in the past against sovietunion 1958 without concrete videoproov of his Performance of his game, there excist only a 2-3 Minute Video with some Actions of the game...... müller didnt Need to be great in a Worldcup final if we put in perspective how good netherland was Prior and how few Goals the Team has conceeded , he olso has played far more tiring games in all competions in this Season than, i repeat king johan , or lato any other offensive Players of european Teams so ist a bit more excusable than for others .nobody can await a halfdozen goalchances for him in such a game....he put the ball twice in the net in regulare Actions in this game , that matters, and nobody really can await more..i havent seen a Opponent offensive Player where did this in 6 of netherlands Prior games not even once....i still think he he was definitiv not bad..the german commentor even has praised him for his offensive defending Action against rysbergen where twice nearly did loose the ball against müller in the first half.. booking not him ..who cares ??yes he was early overmotivated and did dive, this was bad.....on the other side the Referee has not booked cruijff in his Action against sepp maier....van hannegem and cruijff have overeacted too ..watch the Actions of both after the 45 Minute break against Referee.. i think diffrent...i do not think the waterpitch match has affctet poland negativ more than the Germans..the ecq qualifer game 1971 in Germany was played under bad fieldcondition too and poland wasnt worster than the Germans, the Overall game of poland was a bit better...the ecq game in poland 1971 was played under much better fieldcondition where Germany won 3:1 ...this tell a bit a other Story...there was olso a friendly game 1971 in sweden where the fieldcondition was descripted to be worster than the waterpitch match against poland in wc 1974..Germany was affectet more and did loose 1:0, the swedish goalscorer beating Beckenbauer one and one..bad condition field games wasnt a advatage for the Germans i suggest.. netherland has not played a match under such bad fieldconditions than Germany and poland.. the poland game Shows olso a Action of Beckenbauer misshitting the ball in a defensive Action where evoluted in 2 big goalchances in row for poland and sepp maier twice has saved the ball and Germany in row...do you think the pitch has affected Beckenbauers Heumacher ?? or do you think it was a big individuel error???only wondering.. müller against australia was nearly fouled out of the tournament ..heynckes has left injured the field in Minute 45 and was out of the tournament ...if we use todays standart , Gerd müller good possible was denid 2 Penaltys...he olso was badly tackelt in one Action where the Referee had a clear view of the Action and no other players around and he didnt gave a a red Card,no yellow Card and not even a foulcall.....seriously ..imagine such a Action against the goatplayers messi or c. Ronaldo without a Referee Action against the defender....not even a foulcall i repeat......a other Action was a bad tackle from behind on the penaltybox line where has hurt him, he still was sucessful passing the ball to hoeness where missed a golden goalchance..advantage rule used from the referee..müller didnt complan against the Referee but exchanged some words with this Defender..a other Action a australian Defender jumping (_olso using his arm) in gerd müller Body and floored him in the Penalty box , müller looked surprised to the Referee but didnt complain.. and how you judge Gerd müllers diving Header against the bar against australia.... i have postet Highlights in dearmanns Topic yesterday..
Ok, I am not sure exactly but I seem to recall speculating - "I wonder what France Football ratings would have been awarded to Pele for his 1958 games" or something. But I'd be guessing that 4 or 5 might be awarded for the USSR game and no more, and I don't know whether I myself might think the full performance was only really worth 3/6 or even think it was worth 6/6 if there was a lot of great play by him to add to what we can see (not much as you say, although a good assist ofc), I don't know whether I would rate Muller lowest or among the lowest in that Final in 1974 - I guess not considering the quality and importance of the winning goal. The study made it's ratings according to set criteria I suppose, but I think on balance I'd not likely rate him the lowest anyway, although I didn't feel he had a great game overall. Perhaps he was tired yes, that can play a part. I think Cruyff was booked at half-time for complaining too much about fouls of Vogts, or fouls in general IIRC? Maybe you are right about Poland and the pitch. I know some people say they were unlucky to have to play on that pitch, but I guess we'll never know what they could have done otherwise and perhaps German attacks would also be more successful ofc. From what I was seeing of the game I felt maybe Germany were playing the ball sensibly to avoid getting it stuck etc. Beckenbauer in particular maybe, but actually I'm not sure I watched where he makes the mistake or I forget about it now (but yes ofc a tricky pitch can make things more difficult for defenders as well as attackers, and for both teams). I don't really plan to watch the whole Australia game I hope you understand but I take your word for the fouls etc you talk about. It's ideal to watch as much as possible I know but there are quite a few players I could aim to watch more for and not only Muller if you know what I mean. I think it was a good effort with the diving header, and a little bit unlucky. Yes, I noticed you had posted that.
My apologies for being late to the conversation but I would like to put my two cents in. This is a good piece of research but also keep in mind that Bayern began the 2nd half of the 1975-76 season 9 points behind Gladbach so there was little hope of catching Borussia. Despite that, Bayern picked up 23 points during the 2nd half of the 1975-76 season and 22 points in the first half of the 1976-77 season for a total of 45 points which as you point out would put them at the top of the Bundesliga in either of those seasons. This is important as Bayern's main focus at the time was on defending the European Cup. So one could conclude that a fully healthy (and focused) Bayern would have given Gladbach a run for the title in those years. In the calendar year of 1976, Müller scored 35 goals in the Bundesliga. A total that compares well with his peak years of 1968-1973. You can definitely correlate Bayern's success to Müller's health in that period. When he was out with a back injury in 1977, Bayern were knocked out of the race for the Bundesliga, dumped in the European Cup by Kiev and the DFB Cup by Hertha. Clearly not the same team without him. On a side note, in my opinion the Bayern team of 1976 is better than they are given credit for. Besides Gerd Müller, Maier and Beckenbauer were both superb at this time. Kaiser Franz was Germany and Europe's player of the year for 1976. Beckenbauer always credits Gerd for being the main reason behind Bayern's success but he was equally as valuable. Don't forget how dreadful Bayern were without him in 1977-78. Sepp Maier was Germany's best player in 1975 and 1977, as voted by Kicker magazine. Hoeness returned to good form in 1976 winning back a place on the German National team for the 1976 European Championships. Schwarzenbeck was still a regular with the National team. Kapellmann, while not capped by Germany in this period, was picked by France's Onze magazine as one to their 11 best players in Europe for 1976. Dürnberger was a strong player too, when both he and Müller were out with injuries in 1977, Bayern trainer Dettmar Cramer was quotes as saying, "We miss Gerd up front but we miss Dürnberger everywhere". Rummenigge was a star on the rise. His strong play in 1976 was a part of Bayern's European Cup win. Kalle scored 10 goals in the first half of the 1976-77 season to go along with Müller's 19 to give Bayern a solid 1-2 punch up front. Rummenigge did get his first cap for Germany in 1976 but was not quite ready to shoulder the load up front when Gerd went out with injury. I'm glad I came across this post. There is a lot of information and good photos here. Thanks to all for their contribution.
Bump. I encourage people to read this thread. This and my thread about Pele being an overrated scorer are really my BigSoccer magnum opuses.
Yep....I just finished to read this thread since the first post and is very informative towards Gerd Muller and other goalscorers. I don´t necessary agree about Muller captive place in a top 20, but I do know people almost unanimously rate him that high, even in a more 'popular' forum: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rank-your-top-20-players-of-all-time.451298/