bundesliga Season 1973/74 penaltys Gerd müller 6 Penaltys total... , 5 succesful scored (2 he has created)....1 not succesful scored (he has created) Roth , 1 Penalty (not sucessful) hoeness, 1 Penalty , sucessful..(created from müller) Breitner 3 Penaltys, 1 succesful..2 Penaltys not sucessful , both created from Gerd müller..
For those who might be interested, here I have listed all of Romario's assist in La Liga competition season 93/94 with their respective match dates. Borderline cases and pre-assists are not part of the list. All cases were cross-checked with Leadleader. Zaragoza (1) 26-9-1993 Logrones (1) 4-12-1993 Valencia (2) 11-12-1993 Madrid (1) 8-1-1994 Osasuna (2) 19-2-1994 Valladolid (2) 22-2-1994 Atletico (1) 12-3-1994 Lleida (1) 2-4-1994 Valencia (1) 16-4-1994 Sporting (2) 1-5-1994 ________ Total (14) assists in 33 games. @lessthanjake @leadleader
Gerd Muller was good but best striker ever was EUSEBIO (Benfica) anyone who saw him play knows Benfica best team in world in 1960 Eusebio best striker. If there was no Eusebio there would be no MULLER
Gerd Muller is a top 20 legend for sure. His instinct and speed of reaction in the box are unbeatable. His scoring consistency across all the major competitions is unmatched, although his high scoring era and his dominant teams had a big part on this. Also, he lacked the qualities that allow a player dominates a match by himself. I would like to see how he is rated among the others great strikers, such as Eusebio, R9, Romario and Van Basten. Surely Muller is the most reliable in the scoring department, but also the most limited in the others subjects of the game. Eusebio had notorious qualities that allowed him to dominate a game by himself. He had great club and Nt career. However, it must be noticed that Benfica was already dominating the portuguese league before him and just won the EC in the year before Eusebio became a starter. As for the NT, it must be said that, apart the Wc66, he was not that great. Also, the 5 best offensive players for Portugal in that tournament had been playing together for many years in Benfica, which made things easier for all them. This same argument can be used against Muller by the way. Still, anyway, Portugal was and still is a minnow, unlike Muller germany. So, its hard to compare their NT careers. R9 had notorious qualities that allowed him to dominate some matches by himself too and his peak is one of the best ever. Even him, unlike muller, could be a bit inconsistent in the scoring department, as he was in UCL level, especially in the Ucl 98/99 (6games/1goal) or UCL 04/05 (8games/2goals). His WC06 (at the 29 age) also was sad to watch. The others legendary strikers as Van Basten and Romario are just a bit below imho. On a good day, Romario was capable of deliver brilliant performances due to his great technique, as he proved in the 88/2000 period, in some years more often than in the others. He had a great NT career, almost as great as Muller's. I think he delivered the best WC performance post Maradona. But the little man also had his bad days, when he barely touched the ball. His club career is below Muller's. He was not a factor in one out of 3 league titles by PSV (91/92, IIRC). His UCL 93/94 (10 games/2 goals) and his stint in Valencia (12 games/6 goals - not that bad statically, but it was subpar on the pitch) come to my mind as moments that I saw the worse of Romario. Just like Muller, Romario could not hold the title of best player in the world for more than one year. His short period in a big league affected him for sure. He was among the best strikers in the world for many years, but, unlike the others, he was not the absolute best striker in the world for more than 2 years. As for Van Basten, I believe the dutch had incredible qualities and a very high IQ for football, he really worked for the team and could score in so many ways. But well, even these qualities did not prevent him to had some subpar campaigns on his career. His club career was as great as Muller's, but it must be noticed that there were some years when he barely played and still milan and ajax won the league. For the Nt, I was researching few days ago and noticed that, apart his great euro in 88, he was mostly subpar in the rest of his international career. At wc86 qual., young Basten had a bad Record (6games/1goal - vs cyprus in a 7:1 for the dutch). It can be said he was integral part of the dutch elimination in those qualifiers. At wc90 qualifiers, again, 6 games/1 goal ( an important goal vs germany). At WC90, no goals, a really subpar performance by van Basten at his peak. At EC92,, Van Basten had some good games, but he was scoreless again. Worse than that, in the semi vs Denmark he was one of the worst on the pitch and was the only player to miss the pk in the shootout. At the WC94 qual., he played 2 games (a draw and a lost for netherlands) and did not score. After his injury, the dutch had 5 wins and 2 draws in the qualifiers. It must be said that, among all these strikers, he played in the most defensive Era for sure.
in case some here thought, this post is not another dig at R9, I am merely responding to some comments which I think are plainly shallow and complacent to the narrative of him being apparently a dominant force who could win by himself, which is far from truth. His peak showed us that he could only dominate by himself the sup par teams La Liga by topping up goals vs mid table teams who were in relegation e.g. Compostella and Valencia. He never showed the same form against top of table teams in his peak at a consistent level. The only matches he dominated by himself was against sub par clubs in mid table back in 96/97. Compostella ended 11th and Valencia ended 12th on the league table. R9 fans praise his peak as the best they ever saw. And it is his 2 matches vs Compostella nad Valencia which they eulogise the most. Compostella was a team in relegation when Barca beat them 5-1. The opening goal was a own goal and therefore the match was already decided, therefore Ronaldo was exploiting this weak pathetic defence line which was nothing short of a joke. Scoring a wonder goal in a match which was already dictated by own goal and Giovanni, against a team in relegation is quite impressive indeed. Yeah, I can see why many fans of the sensational would dub him dominant who won matches by himself . I can dig it! Valencia was a sub par team who's averaged place on the table for much of the season remained below 10th. But let's break the myth about R9 much hyped peak down into detail for good measure and to be a bit academic La Liga 96/97 (1) Madrid 92 pts (2) Barca 90 pts (3) Deportivo 77 pts (4) Betis 77 pts (4) Atletico 71 pts ..... (10) Valencia 56 pts (11) Compostella 53 pts Madrid (2-0) Barca 7-12-1996 (1st round at home!) Ronaldo scoreless! Madrid (0-1) Barca 10-5-1997 (2nd round away) Ronaldo scores Deportivo (1-2) Barca 4-1-1997 (1st round away) Ronaldo scoreless! Deportivo (0-1) Barca 24-5-1997 (2nd round at home) Ronaldo scores Betis (2-4) Barca 19-1-1997 (1st round home) Luis Henrique scored hat trick, Ronaldo 1 goal. Betis (0-3) Barca 15-6-1997 (2nd round home) Ronaldo does not play. Oscar, Stoichkov, Luis Enrique score. Atletico (3-3) Barca 9-11-1996 (1st round home) Ronaldo does not play. Pizzi, Luis Enrigue, Giovanni score. Atletico (2-5) barca 13-4-1997 (2nd round away) Ronaldo hat trick + 1 ass. Man Of Match! Analysis: Short, Ronaldo could not dominate neither Real Madrid nor Deportivo who were their direct rival opponents to the title that season. With the dominant R9 they lost to Real Madrid in the 1st round and then they won against a Deportivo without the dominant R9. Most of his goals here were against Betis and Atletico who were always behind on the table by a a clear margin in points. The single goal vs Betis was a top up, since Enrique's hat trick was not only the opening goals but also the goals that saved them from losing that match. Then his hat trick vs Atletico was the only match I can agree he showed dominance in that season, but even then it was a bit too little too late If he had only scored or assisted against Real Madrid and Deportivo 1st round matches, they would certainly have gained the much needed 2 extra points to close the gap on the table. Who knows they might have even had the luck to win the league title after all? But he did not score against Real Madrid, he did not score against Deportivo, consequen letting Real Madrid escape/run away around the 13th round and remained so for the rest of the season. @leadleader
And the above is an example of his peak in league football 96/97 with Barca. For there are plenty of other examples of him faltering during peak with NT at the WC! How about vs Scotland 98 vs Denmark 98 vs, Norway 98, he did not score neither assist in any of these matches, was he dominant to win them matches by himself? Romario the guy you rank lower scored the opening goals in every single match he played and when he did not score against USA he gave a brilliant assist to win that match. I know which one out of the two was more dominating. And even though it was past his peak, he was still in his prime and only 25 years old in WC02, and yet he did not show any sign of being capable of winning matches by himself. How about Brazil vs England WC02 quarter finals. Wasn't it for Rivaldo and Ronaldinho Brazil would have not got past quarter finals if they were to rely on the dominating R9's winning the game by himself. How about vs China 02, his goal (the last goal of match) was a top up after Brazil won 4-0. If he was so dominant that he could win matches by himself why didn't he score the opening goals in said matches, let alone going completely awol vs England? @PMFmdf
Thoroughly agree with most if not all of the above. R9 gets generously overrated because of the "what if he doesn't get injured..." narrative, and because of the exposure that he received (i.e. one of the first super stars to have played in an era where all the matches were televised, which means more exposure, and which also means a much greater collection of youtube moments). Romario played in an era in which a good number of matches were not televised, and also an era in which many of the matches that were televised were of poor cinematic-quality (i.e. the filming-technique was poor and outdated, which is very easy to tell when you compare it to the much modern and much more exciting filming-style of the late 1990s). Had R9 and Romario received equal exposure, I do believe that a lot more people would today regard Romario as of equal quality as R9.
I ultimately disagree with how you rate Romario, but I genuinely enjoyed reading through your insights into these players!! You sound like an honest person, without an agenda for any of the players that you mentioned. That's quite the rare thing in this forum...
I agree, @PMFmdf comes off as a very sincere poster. I too think his Romario rating was a inconsistent but liked very much how he described the other players except R9. Can't blame him though, most people are complacent of the mainstream stereotypical narrative about him being apparently a dominant force who could win matches by himself. This narrative was told in force in the media back in the late 90's and its affect is still echoing even today. When actually the fact is that he did falter against big opponents in crucial matches and his best form came only against mid and bottom table teams in relegation, during peak time in 96/97. He could have made a difference by scoring against Madrid and Deportivo, yet he did not. And this part of the story seems to be often missing from his usual stereotypical narrative as being apparently a dominant force who could win matches by himself. When Romario failed to score in UCL 94, he got antagonised by many posters (often by R9 fans) as being inconsistent and therefore a lot of fans in the mainstream rate him lower then what he deserved. The poor guy failed only one season out of 7 in Europe but still gets penalised for it. And ironically many who tend to rate him low did not even watch that much of his games to the full extend to inform themselves and pass on educated judgement on him. And when R9 during his much hyped peak fell short of brilliance against top of the league opponents in La Liga, and did not deliver his best form against said opponents suddenly the same posters who penalise Romario for his UCL 94 will quickly ignore R9's faltering and forgive him. Clearly he's getting a free pass out of generosity. And they say I am apt to take a dig at him? Lets be honest. If Romario gets lower ratings for his UCL 94 sup par performance, then on the same principle, why aren't they rating R9 lower for his sup par performance vs Real Madrid and Deportivo 96/97? Why aren't they saying wait a minute the guy couldn't make a difference vs England in WC02 therefore he can't be a dominant force and win by himself It's nothing more than a ambitiously fabricated myth. Perhaps one of the biggest of myths in modern football history. And many fans have fallen for it.
transferdaten list for müller in Season 1972/73 6 assists......i have videofootage for 3 Bundesliga games from Season 1972/73 where müller has assistet Goals not mentioned in transferdaten.. week 22: müller has assistet dürnberger the 3:1 against Wuppertal..endresult bayern-Wuppertal 4:1 week 26: müller has assistet breitner the 3:1 against Stuttgart.. endresult bayern-Stuttgart 5:1 week 29: müller has assistet franz Roth the 1:0 against Hannover ..endresult Hannover-Bayern 1:3 ----- week 21: müller has assistet hoffmann the 2:0 against Hertha ..endresult Hertha Berlin-Bayern 2:5..müller has left the field injured in Minute 45, Bayern with a 2:0 lead....gamereport of a Publikation.. müller Season 1972/73 , 36 Goals,+ 10 assists Minimum of 33 games played......
for me Breitner was no midfielder 1972 or 1973....i have watched Bundesliga Highlights of Bayern munich games from Season 1972/73 (about 17 games ect.)..Breitner has scored 4 Goals each Season 1971/72 and Season 1972/73....this are not numbers of a player of a caliber of Breitner to be called a midfielder...a good example is the game bayern-Gladbach (3:0) for the Season 1972/73.... Season 1972/73 in my opinion schwarzenbeck and Hansen , defenders Breitner Defender with some offensive midfield Actions in this Season..still a Defender Beckenbauer 50% Defender and 50% midfielder Zobel and Roth ,midfielders Krauthausen midfielder and a bit offensive.. hoeness 50% midfield,50% offensive dürnberger, 50% offensive , 50 % midfield hoffman and Edgar schneider ,offensive wing Gerd müller ,striker Hoffmann ,( minutes used) has played average 20-21 full games played Edgar schneider (minutes used) has played average 12 full games played dürnberger ( minutes used) has played average 20-21 full games played hoffmnn and schneider was rather decent second divsion caliber Players..both have played in Bundesliga Career wise only 30-31 full games (all for Bayern) dürnberger was a Bundesliga rookie , a Amateur where got a profi contract..he has celebrated his 19 birthday in Bundesliga week 2...he had a good Bundesliga Career later, but never capped for the NT for a topclub like Bayern in contrast to other big Clubs recently or in the past surprising relative weak offensive and no deep squad... krauthausen,zobel,hoffmann,dürnberger.edgar scheider no NT games, franz Roth only 2 NT games i think.. example:the ajax Amsterdam squad 1972/73 had a better deeper squad than Bayern munich in my opinion.. bayern-Gladbach...Breitner virtuell never mentioned for offensive actions played on difficult field condition in winter
Another thing about Gerd Muller's NT career: He was unbelievably good when faced with good opposition. A 1900 Elo rating typically is roughly the cutoff line for a top 10 team in the world. For most big NTs, competitive tournament matches against such teams are the matches that make or break their NTs fortunes. They truly have outsized importance. They also are the most difficult to perform well in. Gerd Muller played 9 such matches: England WC 1970, Italy WC 1970, England Euro 1972 QF x2, Soviet Union Euro 1972, East Germany WC 1974, Yugoslavia WC 1974, Poland WC 1974, and Netherlands WC 1974. (Note: I count the Euro 1972 QF tie even though it was technically qualifying, because it was, in fact, a KO-stage QF tie for the Euros). Gerd Muller scored 9 goals in those 9 matches. He scored in all but the 2nd leg of the Euro 1972 tie with England and the East Germany match in 1974. But those matches were not actually super important. Germany already had a 3-1 lead going into the 2nd leg at home against England in 1972. And Germany was already guaranteed to go through the group stage when they faced East Germany. So really, in the 7 most crucially important NT matches Germany faced with Gerd Muller, he scored 9 goals, including at least one goal in every single match. Think about that. Here's how some other players have fared in their NT matches against teams with >1900 Elo rating: Messi: 1 goal in 9 matches (plus one brief appearance off the bench) Pele: 3 goals in 5 matches Maradona: 2 goals in 7 matches Romario: 2 goals in 3 matches Ronaldo: 3 goals in 5 matches Cristiano Ronaldo: 4 goals in 12 matches (13 matches if you count the 2006 3rd place match, but I don't). Platini: 3 goals in 6 matches Van Basten: 5 goals in 6 matches Gerd Muller is superior to all of these players by this measure.
He's definitely a top 15-20 player of all time imo. He quite sadly tends to be pigeon-holed as a pure poacher which doesn't fully portray his qualities. Granted, he wasn't exactly a great creative or a technical forward such as van Basten but his link-up play was actually excellent - albeit in an ungainly way. His only flaw is that he isn't aesthetically pleasing and as such he just doesn't get the deserved plaudits for his all-round game. I don't think many goalscoring centre forwards would have had the intelligence to play the role he played for Germany in 1972 (widely regarded as Germany's greatest side ever) when they won the Euros. Netzer played slightly deeper than usual and forged an impressive duo with Beckenbauer, with both maestros pulling the strings at the back for Germany. Müller had a more customised role than normal and frequently dropped deep into the vacant space left behind by Netzer, to aid build-up play and contribute to the the overall fluidity of the German side which played some thrilling football, with a total-footballing mindset. The video in the first page against Real is a good example, where you see Müller frequently dropping deep and aiding build-up play etc, but his role in the 1972 side was much more pronounced. All in all, he wasn't just a mere poacher but rather a hard-working and intelligent forward who wasn't just a goalscorer. There are more technical, creative and aesthetically pleasing forwards than Müller but none have been as decisive as him or quite simply put, can get the job done like him. The greatest #9 of all time, although of course it's a subjective opinion.
I just watched the entire away match against England (it is on YouTube), and I remembered this comment you made about it. I actually do not think it is at all "without debate" that Netzer was the best player in that match. He made a couple nice runs with the ball. And he made a few good cross-field passes. Probably most importantly, he was also pretty consistent with his passing. And he made the penalty kick. But I do not remember him actually creating any chances the whole match. And while he was relatively consistent with his passing, he still made a handful of inaccurate passes. He also was somewhat at fault for England's goal, as he jogged along while an English player nearest to him ran right by him and into space (at which point that player received a pass, took a shot, which was saved but the rebound was scored). And while he made the penalty kick, it was hardly convincing, as Banks got both hands on it and very nearly saved it (it deflected off Banks' hands into the post and into the goal). Lastly, England left him in tons of space for lots of the match, so he had lots of time to pick out his passes, while others were much more closed down. Overall, I'd still say Netzer was good because he was a consistent presence in the midfield. But he created zero chances, was not entirely error-free in his passing, and was somewhat at fault for one of England's goals. I think multiple German players were better than Netzer. For one, I thought Beckenbauer was better. He wasn't a huge presence in attack--though he had his moments. But England looked dangerous pretty much the whole match, and I lost count of how many times Beckenbauer was able to stop plays from coming off at the last moment. It's hard to compare that contribution to Netzer playing a different position, but I thought Beckenbauer was more important. I also thought Sepp Maier was impressive, as well as Hoeness and Held, though I wouldn't say they were necessarily better than Netzer. Perhaps more importantly, I thought Gerd Muller was better than Netzer. Throughout the match, he popped up frequently in midfield and had very good defensive work rate for a striker. The first 20 minutes or so from Muller were not very good, as he made a couple bad passes and was dispossessed in a bad spot. He also made a bad clearance in the German box, though I don't weigh that too highly against him, as he had dispossessed the ball in a dangerous situation in his own box in the first place and proceeded to help win back possession again right after his bad clearance anyways. But generally, he looked pretty sloppy early on, with one exception being a nice incisive ball from midfield to a teammate in the box. After the first 20 minutes or so, though, Muller was fantastic. He was crucial in every one of Germany's goals. As far as I'm concerned, he was the most important component of Germany's first goal. An England defender recovered the ball in the England box and tried to pass it sideways to a teammate. Muller anticipated the pass and accelerated past the intended recipient, stealing the ball deep in the box. He passed it immediately to a teammate very close to him, who passed it to Hoeness right near him, and Hoeness scored. The shot was solid, but the crucial part of this goal was the interception in the box, and that was all down to classic Muller anticipation and acceleration. He was also crucial to the second goal. Netzer scored a penalty after Held was fouled in the box. But it was Gerd Muller who made the pass that put Held through, necessitating the foul. An England player almost successfully intercepted the pass (getting a foot on the ball), but he didn't quite manage it and maybe could've done better to stop it. It cannot be denied though that a Muller pass created the danger that led to the foul. Next, the third goal was classic Muller, as he got the ball near the edge of the box with his back to the goal. He quickly turned and shot, and managed to place the ball perfectly, right in the corner. Other than being crucial to every goal, Muller was also involved in a few nice one-twos in dangerous areas. And, early in the 2nd half, he made a nice move near the box, after which it looked like he had a decent shout for a penalty that wasn't given (no replay though, so I can't be sure how good a case he had). He had a couple decent chances that he missed, but nothing super easy such that missing was a big negative. Overall, I legitimately think that Muller was superior to Netzer in the crucial away leg of the 1972 Euro QFs. I recognize that that does not comport with many peoples' opinion of that match. But I just don't see Netzer as having been better than Muller (and I am a sucker for deep-lying playmaker type of players, so I'm not immune to recognizing their influence).
Throughout the entirety of the tournament I'd say Netzer was their best player as his influence was just supreme and you could really see the impact that he left on the side. There weren't too many personnel changes between the 1974 side and the '72 vintage (Overath, Vogts, Bonhof, Grabowski etc) and the core more or less remained the same, but the way that they played was drastically different and they were a shadow of the side from 1972. Various factors contributed to it - the politics going on behind the scenes, the clash between the German players and the board, discord between the managers and certain players etc but I'd say the omission of Netzer was the prime reason. Not that Netzer was in great nick himself when the WC came about, but the absence of prime '72 Netzer was telling despite Germany winning the WC with a great playmaker in Overath featuring for them. With regards to the Euros, I've only watched one of their qualifying matches (against Poland when they won 2-1, it's on youtube). Netzer wasn't exactly at his best and wasn't at the races - in fact he was quite disappointing as a lot of things he tried didn't come off. However, he assisted the first goal with a free kick and played a key role with a dinked pass over the top for the second goal. He was one of their best players in the famous game against England in Wembley and ran the show imo. Germany's movement off the ball, the fluidity and their inter-play was a delight to watch and I'd say Netzer as the orchestrator, knitting play together, was the key reason for this. You know you are quite a player and a playmaker, when Franz feckin Beckenbauer takes the back-seat and hands the reign of the side over to you. Not that Beckenbauer played a diminished role by any means - he was simply impeccable defensively and played the supporting playmaker role brilliantly and I've never seen two dominant playmakers dovetail as wonderfully as Netzer & Beckenbauer did during that tournament. They simply took the piss out of the opposition together who just didn't have a clue how to handle them. In the next game it was 0-0 with Netzer being disgracefully man-marked and kicked out of the game by Peter Story who probably didn't even realise there was a ball on the pitch. Netzer, nor Germany, were at their best in this game, but it was understandable as Germany played passively, as they had a 3-1 lead to hold on to and England barely threatened anyway. The semis against Belgium was one of the best midfield playmaking displays that I've ever seen and Netzer was just unbelievable on that day. He assisted both the goals for Der Bomber in this match but it was just a playmaking master-class for him - esp the first half where he was flawless. Just sublime. Anyway that second assist for Müller was simply ridiculous. He literally couldn't have placed the ball anywhere else, lest it fall onto the goalie's hands or be intercepted by the defender. I remember sitting there watching and wondering, how on earth did he pull that off. Likewise, he was pivotal to their win in the final against USSR (one should also watch the friendly that both these sides played before the Euros and Netzer was the best player again, for one of the goals he just cut right through their midfield and defense before being thwarted by the post). Heynckes and Müller were arguably more influential with regards to their end product in the final, but Netzer (and Der Kaiser) were the ones pulling the strings from behind and were the architects and masterminds behind the greatest ever German side (imo). That's not to downplay Müller involvement and I'd say they wouldn't have won it without Der Bomber but I'd just place Netzer and Beckenbauer's influence on that side slightly above him. I really do rate Müller very highly in general and esp love the role (which I've highlighed in my post above) that he played throughout the tournament- it required a lot of tactical nous and technical ability etc and he was one of the key players for that victory. For instance, I rate his Euros higher than van Basten's 1988 for example - Gullit was more impressive despite being less productive for example. It's quite a shame that Müller is pigeon-holed as a pure and 'on the shoulder of the last defender' static poacher up top with the wingers/wing-forwards & midfielders just feeding him. Couldn't happen to be further away from the truth.
I didn't realize the Poland match was on YouTube too! Thanks for pointing that out! I don't have time to watch the full match at the moment, but I just sort of fast forwarded to where the goals were going to happen. On the first goal, Netzer's free kick is a good ball, but it looks to me like it actually gets initially headed by a Polish player (I may be wrong since the video quality isn't great, but I rewatched it a few times and I think I'm right). It falls rather fortunately for Muller, but he needs to make a diving header to score it. I'm not sure I give that much credit to Netzer for that one as his free kick didn't actually hit any intended target. Germany was mostly just lucky that a Polish player effectively made a flick on to Muller. As for Muller, he was in open space to make a header, but he essentially was flat-footed by the unexpected flick-on, so he had to make a diving header, which is always somewhat impressive. The goal was fortunate all around, but I give Muller more credit there. On the second goal, I couldn't tell who made that dinked pass over the top (combination of bad video quality, no announcer, that player being largely off the screen until his involvement, and not having his back--with his number--facing the camera). But if you say that was Netzer, then I believe you. That was a very good pass, and the player who received the pass made a very good dribbling move. Muller had great positioning as always but merely scored a tap in. I was more impressed by the other two players involved in the play (which apparently includes Netzer), though I do think positioning in plays like this shouldn't be downplayed. Muller was also crucially involved in Germany's third goal. In the build up to the goal, he actually beat a man in midfield. More importantly, though, he made a nicely weighted and accurate pass to a streaking player on the edge of the box. This sucked in the defense towards that player (presumably to block an impending shot) and that player was able to pass to an open Grabowski nearby for the goal. Anyways, I'm not making any particular point here. I haven't yet watched the full match so I can't really comment on how well players played overall. But it's worth noting that, as with the England match, Muller was crucially involved in every single goal. I guess it's hard to compare Beckenbauer, Netzer, and Muller in that match. I thought they were all fantastic at their particular roles. Beckenbauer was all over the place defensively. Netzer orchestrated play really well. And Muller played a decisive role in the goals. Muller (and Beckenbauer) nudge ahead of Netzer for me for a couple reasons. First of all, I think Netzer was partly at fault for England's goal, since it resulted from an England player streaking right by him. Second, for all his orchestration of play, Netzer didn't actually create chances. He had one attempted through ball to Muller that would've been wonderful, but England just managed to snuff it out. But comparisons of performances in completely different roles are inherently quite subjective as it's pretty much an apples to oranges comparison. I certainly don't deny that Netzer had a really good match. I only deny that he was "without debate" the best player (which was the statement of a different poster that I was quoting), since I personally don't actually think he was the best. Yeah Netzer's assists in the Belgium match were amazing, particularly the second one. Muller's finishes were excellent, as was his great acceleration to blow by the defender and get on the end of the second ball. I'm alright saying that Netzer was better that match, though, but it's more because he was so good than that Muller was not fantastic. In the friendly against the Soviet Union you referenced, didn't Muller score 4 goals? I haven't watched the match (I see it's on YouTube though, so I will eventually watch it) and it sounds like you have (so you very well might be right), but it'd be pretty hard to have been better than a guy who scored 4 goals! Likewise, I am certainly not trying to downplay Netzer. From what I've seen, he was really great, and I'm fascinated to watch more of him since I really like that type of player. But Muller was just so unbelievably decisive throughout that Euros campaign. He scored Germany's goal in a 1-1 draw to Turkey. He scored Germany's winning goal in a 1-0 victory against Albania. He scored their first two goals in a 3-0 win against Turkey (and may well have been involved in the 3rd goal too; I don't know). Against Poland away, he scored 2 of the goals and nicely pre-assisted the last in a 3-1 victory. In the 3-1 away victory against England in the QFs, he scored a goal, made the pass that put through the player who was fouled in the box, and made the crucial interception in the box that led to another goal. He then scored both goals in a 2-1 semifinal victory to Belgium. And he scored 2 goals in a 3-0 victory in the finals. Thus, in the 9 matches Muller played in the campaign (he missed a relatively simple home match against Albania), Germany scored 16 goals. Muller scored 11 of them and was crucially involved in at least 3 more. Only the second goal against the USSR and possibly the 3rd goal against Turkey occurred without Muller playing a crucial part. It's hard to directly compare that influence with the influence of a midfield maestro, but what I'll say is that only Platini 1984 and Van Basten 1988 come even close to being as decisive in their teams' goals as Muller was in the full Euro 1972 campaign.
Another interesting set of facts: Very broadly speaking, Muller's prime was 1966-1967 through 1977-1978. In those years for Bayern, Muller scored 439 non-pk goals in 513 matches. This is 0.86 non-pk goals per match. We don't have penalty data for most all-time greats, so we can't do a comprehensive comparison. However, we have Messi and Ronaldo's penalty data. Let's be charitable to both of them and start the clock for each at the season in which they became big scorers: 2008-2009 for Messi and 2007-2008 for Ronaldo. Since 2007-2008, Ronaldo has 0.79 non-pk goals per match for his clubs. Since 2008-2009, Messi has 0.86 non-pk goals per match for Barcelona. (Ronaldo would be at 0.86 non-pk goals per match as well, if we only included his Real Madrid years). So basically, these guys have incredibly similar non-pk goals per match rates over the specified time periods. But, of course, Muller did this over a 12-year span, while I've only identified an 8-year span for Messi and a 9-year span for Ronaldo. I doubt either Messi or Ronaldo will keep their scoring rate this high for a full 12-year timespan (for Ronaldo because of age, and for Messi because of a changing role). In any case, if we took Muller's peak 9-year scoring rate (1968-1969 to 1976-1977), he scored 0.92 non-pk goals per match. So prime Muller scored more non-pk goals per match than prime Messi and prime Cristiano Ronaldo over the same length of time. Meanwhile, as I have repeatedly pointed out throughout this thread, Bayern did not score as many goals per match as present-day Barcelona and Real Madrid. Over the time periods mentioned, Bayern scored between 2.25 and 2.35 goals per match, while Messi and Ronaldo's teams range from averaging 2.65 and 2.85 goals per match over the time periods mentioned. Thus, prime Muller scored more non-pk goals at club level than Messi and Ronaldo, while playing for a notably less potent attack. And then the non-pk goals rates at NT level are not even close. Muller scored 1.02 non-pk goals per match for Germany. From 2007 onwards, Ronaldo has 0.50 non-pk goals per match for Portugal. Since 2008, Messi has scored 0.44 non-pk goals per match for Argentina. To be fair, Germany scored 2.31 goals a match when Muller played, while Portugal has only scored 1.81 goals a match in matches Ronaldo played since 2007, and Argentina has only scored 1.89 goals a match in matches Messi played since 2008. Muller's scoring tally is still plainly more impressive though. He may be inferior in other regards, but it seems fairly clear from this that Muller is more prolific scorer than Messi or Ronaldo. Prime Muller scored more open-play goals a match at club level, while playing for a less potent attack. And at NT level he scored more than twice as many open-play goals a match, while playing for a more potent attack. Meanwhile, for those that want to mention that penalties should count, consider that Muller did not always have consistent pk duties for Germany or Bayern, so it would be a biased comparison. But when he did take them, his conversion rate was up there with Cristiano Ronaldo's (Muller has a 82.2% conversion rate, while Ronaldo has a 83.6% rate), so it's not a matter of discounting a skill that Muller didn't have, but rather discounting a skill Muller had but did not have an equal opportunity to take advantage of. And, in any case, the difference between pk and non-pk numbers here wouldn't change much of anything substantively; I just prefer non-pk numbers. @carlito86 @EdgarAllanPoet @Bada Bing @Gregoriak
Also, Gerd Muller peaked at 1.20 non-pk goals per match in 1972-1973. Cristiano Ronaldo's peak in that regard is 0.90 non-pk goals per match, and Messi peaked at 1.10 non-pk goals per match in 2012-2013. For Muller, this came in one of the few seasons in which Bayern scored at a similar rate to present-day Barcelona and Real Madrid. In fact, Bayern pretty much scored exactly like present-day Barcelona and Real Madrid for a three-season span from 1971-1972 through 1973-1974. During that time period, Muller scored 1.01 non-pk goals per match for Bayern. He also scored exactly 1.0 non-pk goals per match in 1969-1970, which was easily Bayern's next highest scoring season beyond that 3-year span but still a bit below the scoring of Barca/RM. In other words, Messi and Ronaldo both score 0.86 non-pk goals a match for Barcelona and Real Madrid. When Muller was on a club attack that was of similar potency, he scored roughly 1.0 non-pk goals a match, a notable improvement on Messi's and Ronaldo's rate.
I'd have to say I completely disagree about Van Basten's Euros haha (maybe there is room for me to question if I have over-rated his displays to a small extent but not that much lol! - But I do tend to recall another poster with a similar idea as you have only recently signed up and this was a month or so ago). But don't worry about that and I have certainly got plenty of interesting info from your posts so far (I've been reading threads occasionally while not posting much but I already noticed quite a few things you've posted that utilise your memory going far back into the 70's and maybe even 60's).
Ronaldo scored at a "goat level" in 2007/08 but he did not become a goat level goal scorer that season overall remember he struck 26 in 53 in 08/09 and 33 in 35 during 09/10. i think it is very feasible to claim that Ronaldo was a goat level scorer in 09/10 if you take into account his gpg ratio,his serious injury which affected his season and what he managed to do in 2010/11 in terms of goal scoring the first time he played a 50+ game season for real Madrid Ronaldo's peak scoring at league level wipes the floor with Muller's as I have already shown you in a previous post and at cl it is even worse Muller scored 35 goals in 35 European cup games which is astonishing(before Ronaldo and Messi popped up nobody got even close) But check this since 09/10 Ronaldo has scored 78 goals in 75 champions league games(and 18 assists) Messi has 66 goals in 73 champions league games(and 16 assists) Ronaldo is clearly ahead and even though Messi is slightly behind Muller in gpg his countless amount of chances created and direct assists completely outweigh Muller's slight goal scoring" advantage" over Messi at cl level Also Don't forget that c.Ronaldo is the fastest player in top 5 European league football history to reach 100,150,200 and 250 league goals.puskas held the previous record for the fastest to reach 100 goals(105 games) but cr7 smashed it and did it in 92 games Imo ronaldo's achievement in being real Madrids all time top goal scorer in 6.5 seasons is one of if not the most remarkable goal scoring achievement in European club football history . If you can just reflect on the goal scoring legends that have played in la liga since 1940 Zarra in the 40s and 50s Puskas Di Stefano and kubala in the 50s and 60s Quini and Mario kempes in the 70s Hugoal in the 80s Romario,r9,bebeto in the 90s R9,eto'o,Raul in the noughties C.Ronaldo surpassed them one by one in record time and in an absolutely unprecedented fashion For me cr7 is clearly the goat goal scorer he is the best since the almost now mythological strikers fernando peyroteo and Arthur friedenreich. every forward from 1950- is behind him imo
That's maybe the thing though isn't it mate - that Friedenreich and Peyroteo (even Bican) perhaps were not really the best ever scorers ability wise but just played in a time when it was easier to score. And now it is easier to score than in the 80's/90's (in club football at least) so the comparisons would have to consider more than raw numbers I think if you know what I mean (maybe that makes them a bit impossible in some ways even)?
Are these all direct assists(ie final ball) or have you included shot deflections and earned penalties that he did not score. Also if you can I would like to see video evidence perhaps you can post it on the romario/r9 thread so we can compare their assists In 93/94 and 96/97 or even 97/98.
Yeah it's really hard to find Euro footage online, UEFA takes em down real quick unfortunately. As far as Germany's Euro 1972 matches go the Poland one is available, as is the first leg against England on youtube. The rest, you will have to torrent. There are quite a few matches on youtube that you can watch. The ones that I highlighted above, his friendly against the Soviet Union, a condensed UEFA cup final against Liverpool. Most of em are from his time at Real, where he unfortunately wasn't at his peak and wasn't utilised properly either - being made to make too many runs off the ball and the likes of Pirri etc weren't exactly prepared to play a subservient/secondary role to him from the looks of it. I'd recommend the semi-finals against Bayern where there are a lot of interesting things going on - Breitner playing against Bayern (in one of the legs), Netzer vs Beckenbauer etc. Of course, bloody Müller manages to mess up all those 'story-lines' and narratives with an absolutely stunning display of sheer ruthlessness. It was a tight match and both teams were really jostling for control of the match and trying to slowly and patiently gain the upper hand, but of course, Müller was having none of it and just kills the matches off in absolutely brutal fashion. If anyone doubts his match-winning ability or his reputation as a big-game player, they should watch both those legs. Anyway it would be better to just download the 1972 Euros footage and watch em if you'd like to see Netzer in his pomp. Unfortunately there is not much full-match footage of his time at Gladbach. The only one that I could find was the European Cup replay against Inter (their earlier win was unfairly scrapped) where they drew 0-0, which is on youtube. Still worthy of a watch nonetheless. Also this compilation vid - Indeed, he frequently dropped back into the midfield to link-up with others, esp with Netzer, almost like a false-nine, yet he was also at his imperious goalscoring best. A real joy to watch. Also if I'm not mistaken (and my memory is a bit hazy) it was Netzer who played that pass with his back to the goal from the edge of the penalty box, to Grabowski. That's a fair enough appraisal. There's a case to be made for all three of them (as it reflected in the ballon d'Or rankings that year) and there really wasn't much between their performances overall throughout the tournament. Ultimately, it boils down to subjective preferences and whether one prefers the supreme organisational skills, defensive prowess and the vision of Beckenbauer from the rear-guard; or the sublime playmaking skills and the fluidity that von Karajan imposed upon the usually pragmatic Germans; or the sheer ruthlessness and all-round intelligent play of Müller. I do have to say it was just the unbelievable influence that Netzer commandeered over the side and the way that he ran the show, making them play to his tune, which tipped the scales for me. But then again, I do acknowledge that I'm a fan of Netzer and I'm rather biased in this matter, so I can't exactly claim to be an objective neutral. Heh, yes indeed Müller scored 4 goals in that match but it was just the way that Netzer tore them apart and the way the Soviet Union's midfield could barely get near him, which slightly stood out more for me. In fact, maybe I'm letting this barnstorming run affect my evaluation of him It was always quite something, watching Netzer sauntering around picking out long-range passes with effortless ease like a classic midfield maestro, and then out of the blue, suddenly burst forward like a maniac possessed. Poor defending in this particular case but there have been plenty of times where his burst of speed and change in gears, have caught the opposition flat-footed and off-guard. Anyway , the video quality for this match is unusually good and it's really worth a watch. Yeah it's definitely a controversial opinion and I can see the majority not agreeing with it, which is perfectly reasonable as van basten was on fire during that tournament. Cheers. Likewise, I've been enjoying discussions on here and it's definitely been a great experience thus far.
First of all, I compared Ronaldo's 2007-2008-to-present rate to Muller over a 12-year span. Muller wasn't at a GOAT level at scoring that whole span either. For instance, he wasn't in the 1977-1978 year, but I counted it, because I was talking about their years as major scorers more generally, not their absolute prime scoring years. In that comparison, Ronaldo comes out behind Muller. Regardless, I also anticipated this response and noted that Ronaldo's rate is 0.86 non-pk goals a match even if you start at 2009-2010. It doesn't change his inferiority to Muller in this regard. No matter what number of years you want to bring up, Muller had a span of years that long that was superior in non-pk goals per match. Ronaldo's peak scoring at league level does not even remotely "wipe the floor with Muller's." From 1968-1969 to 1976-1977, Muller scored 235 non-pk goals in 276 Bundesliga matches. That is 0.85 non-pk goals per match. From 2009-2010 through 2015-2016, Ronaldo has scored 208 non-pk goals in 236 La Liga matches. That is 0.88 non-pk goals per match. Meanwhile, in that time period, Real Madrid has scored 2.83 goals per league match, while Bayern only scored 2.34 goals per match in the time period above. I don't know about you, but I find 0.85 non-pk goals on a team that scores 2.34 goals to be more impressive than 0.88 non-pk goals on a team that scores 2.83. Ronaldo does not wipe the floor with Muller at all in this regard. In fact, all things considered, Muller looks superior. And it's worth noting that Bayern had 4 years in which their league scoring was in the same stratosphere as present-day Real Madrid: 1969-1970, 1971-1972, 1973-1973, and 1973-1974. In those years combined, they averaged 2.77 goals a league match. And in those years, Muller averaged 0.96 non-pk goals per league match. In other words, when his team scored like present-day Real Madrid, he was more prolific in the league than Ronaldo. Ronaldo comes out looking worse here, even when you just limit your inquiry to league matches. And then we get to European Cup matches. First of all, on its face, Muller's career scoring rate in the European Cup is essentially indistinguishable from your cherry-picked total for Ronaldo. That's impressive in and of itself. But then we notice that Muller only scored 1 penalty in the European Cup. His 0.97 non-pk goals per match in the European Cup is superior to Ronaldo's 0.91 non-pk goals per match in Champions League matches since 2009-2010. I have no conception of how you got to the conclusion that "Ronaldo is clearly ahead." As demonstrated above, he is plainly behind. I've already demonstrated that he is behind in all competitions--which is plainly the most important measure. But I also just demonstrated that Ronaldo is behind even when you cherry pick both a particular competition and particular years of Ronaldo's career. Meanwhile, I don't care about chances created or assists for this discussion. I'm not saying Muller is a better player than Messi or Ronaldo. I'm saying he was a more prolific scorer. How is that relevant? He wouldn't have that record except that he moved to a new league in his prime. Lots of other amazing scorers--including Muller, Messi, Eusebio, etc--played their very early years in the same league as their prime years, which messes with ones' chances of getting a record like that (consider that Ronaldo would have no such record if he had stayed in the EPL, because he did not score much for his first few years). Being Real Madrid's all-time goalscorer doesn't somehow make him a better scorer than Gerd Muller. Do you find it similarly impressive that Gerd Muller has 566 goals for Bayern and the second-highest scorer for Bayern--two-time Ballon D'or winning striker Rummenigge--has just 217? He literally has 2.6 times as many goals for Bayern as the 2nd place player. I don't know how long it took him to get the record at the time, but I'll tell you this: He had more than 217 goals for Bayern in less than 6.5 seasons. So it took him less than 6.5 seasons to get an amount of goals that would now make him the highest scorer in Bayern history. Meanwhile, as a sidenote, a lot of the players you mentioned here are a bit silly to mention in this context, because many didn't play in La Liga for 7 seasons like Ronaldo has (not sure why you say 6.5...apparently Real Madrid losing early in a couple competitions in 2009-2010 makes it only count as half a season...as if that never happened in any other striker's career. Not to mention the fact that you are talking about La Liga records, in which 2009-2010 was NOT half a season in any way at all for Ronaldo). If a player played fewer matches in La Liga than Ronaldo, then it's not overly impressive for him to have more league goals than them. He played substantially more league matches than Puskas, Kubala, Kempes, R9, Romario, and Bebeto. So I'm not sure how it's super impressive to have more goals than them. And none of the players you listed who did play as many La Liga matches as Ronaldo are particularly near the GOAT scorer discussion. Also, you seem to forget that Messi has the La Liga scoring record.