the picture frames you offer are useless for me..i own a copie of this game and it was a phantom foul call against müller.. i olso have offred enough useful other information about the situation of bayern munich ec final 1974.. it was gerd müller where has assistet netzers shot against the bar eurofinal and it was the rebound of a heynckes shot müller has convertet succesful...thats more information you have offered..... my observation is that you played down virtuel everything gerd müller did good eurochampionship 1972...you play down gerd müllers goal against england to be not so much important ignoring olso without müller , germany (hoeness)never score the first goal in this game, see the video and the action moore,müller,held,hoeness.....and if you check the actions where lead for the penalty it was gerd müller where moved in his own half forwards trying to feed held with a pass..müllers pass became a bit short, sure and defender got the first touch but misscontrolled the action so siggi held got the chance picking up the loose ball and his action finally has ended in a penalty , created from held....so this again shows müller did have offensive actions far away from goal too where finally has ended in goals.. against poland away müller has scored 2 goals and he has a pre-assist as well ...he was part of all goals winning 3:1 in a crucial game against poland...germany came back from a 1:0 deficit....nettzers freekick was headed backyards from a polnish defender and müller where stood free has convertet with a diving header this action...so it wasnt a great (but important)freekick action netzers feeding müller first place for the 1:1.. the video and goals you ind on youtube and how you explain heynckes was held scoreless at home against team albania playing without gerd müller ?.....if he cant score at home against lowly albania why all your complaining first place you did ??? germany won 2:0...not a great result if we put in perspective poland won 3:0 at home...
OK good - I don't need to talk about abilities any longer. The previous post was long enough. I don't deny indeed that his cognitive abilities and his superhuman physicality made him very effective. It is not only the idea of being a "team product"; it's also that a player has to be used in a specific way to be particularly effective. Not too "far away from goal", as one of the quotes say (which became contrasted with e.g. prime Seeler). Of course he is not really discounted and dismissed by the consensus; Peers, experts and fan surveys (internet + mail) alike typically place him in the top 20 or the top 30. For separate years he's in retrospective lists even included in years where he doesn't win something major, or doesn't reach a major final. That is something many (top tier) all-time greats cannot say. Gerd Muller can, so he is not discounted. He's also miles ahead of the 2nd best poacher or 3rd best poacher in history. The distance between him and other poachers is even much larger than between Der Kaiser and the 2nd best libero in history, nevermind the other roles and positions. This are "poachers" who not rarely played in more defensive teams, more defensive leagues/competitions (1970 World Cup) and with a lot fewer all-time greats (in their respective position) as companion - unable to completely dominate and tussle around the Soviet Union. Or with another forward/striker as another focal point for the midfield and wide men (for ex. Shevchenko for Inzaghi). It was also recognized that scoring big and staying at the top might have been harder in Europe (also in a relatively more 'open' league as Germany) than staying at the pinnacle in South America for 5+ years. That it is harder to cultivate, develop and carve an aesthetic skillset as well. Finally, despite the idea of being a "team product", people have also thought about the goals, conversion rate, accuracy, output (whatever) he added above alternative options - compared with for ex. 1966 and 1976. How much that was, and that this added value can outweigh the 'decline' in flashy moves and other competences at the CF position. He might very well have been 'GOAT' in scoring but like all other players and poachers he's not God (1 goal in 4 regular finals); His team mates - for an extended period - include thirteen (13) all-stars. That is a number Beckenbauer and Maldini struggle to beat (of top 30 in history). It is certainly much higher than many other all-timers. The West German national team was so all-conquering, influential and powerful that they made/make the quarter finals almost by default. There in 1970 he scored all of his goals in extra time (after 90 minutes). Of course that is not really 'bad', but that the scoreline is kept low and/or equalizers were scored was largely down to his team mates (considering the individual skillset you described). The same has been tentatively felt for other predators and poachers (in the press!). 1972: well, I think West Germany themselves have occasionally played against tougher and fresher opponents past the quarter finals stage (thanks to clever official tickets allocation Heysel was felt like a home stadium too). USSR was betting on two horses, as they did for a long time in Olympic years (Olympics were very important for the rivaling Eastern Bloc countries). 1974: they were hosts and they absolutely abused this advantage (= not every host can or will do it; not every host is a FIFA superpower). Also pretty unique is that West Germany did not play a single traditional powerhouse en route to the trophy; something they successfully wanted to avoid. Which other World Cup winner can say that? Their opponent in the final played a grueling four of those. Nevermind the reasons for it, he scored a high percentage of his goals at his home stadium (higher than his 'rivals' who at times played out of position too). Against Italian teams he scored 6 goals in 15 games (or 8 in 17 including national team), including the goals in extra time and replays (period post-1977 not counted). Three of these goals came in (friendly) matches that ended (unusual for Italians) in 3-3, 5-5 and 2-4. I understand that to an extent it can be 'unfair' because if Ronaldo Fenomeno doesn't score (note: he did score 8 goals in 2002, all within the regular 90 minutes) then he has 'excuses' to play out. Such as: he stretches the defenses and his pace creates space in midfield, for the midfielders.
1. You say he's not discounted and is top 20 by consensus. If true, then I'm not disagreeing with the consensus. But my impression is that there is at least a substantial minority of people who do not believe that. Pipiolo, for instance, expressed otherwise on this thread. And I am arguing against that. 2. As for having great teammates, I should make a couple points. First of all, that's not so true at Bayern, as I've demonstrated. Second, while he did have a great West Germany team, to some degree we think of the individual players on a team as better when their team wins big titles. I think Gerd Muller is a huge part of why his NT won multiple major titles. So I think Muller is part of why some of those players are regarded as highly as they are. Not that we aren't talking about a great team filled with great players. It's just undoubtedly true that winning major titles makes players be considered better than they otherwise would be. And considering the immensely high contribution Muller made to his team, I think he's a big part of the success that makes some of those players legends. 3. You say Germany could've made the QFs by default. First of all, that's kind of always true of Germany. When was the last time they didn't make the QFs? And it's not like they always have a scorer like Muller, or even someone who is close. So that obviously cannot remotely explain his dominance. Second, Germany required some great performances by Muller to ensure qualification to tournaments in the first place. And they failed to qualify for Euro 1968 because of a match where they choked without Muller. I know that's a bit of an earlier generation of players than what you're probably talking about, but still. I wouldn't say they could be completely penciled into the QFs and were some unstoppable team outside of Muller's influence. With Muller they were amazing. But they struggled to produce goals without him scoring (whether in matches he played or when he didn't). 4. As for your points about the various tournaments, I think most of it is nitpicking. But I do want to address the 1974 World Cup point. To some degree what you say is true. I regard the Netherlands as a major power, but you like to talk about how they're not so we won't agree on that. However, the teams they did play were quite good anyways. That Poland team was very very good. Remember, Poland had a 2035 elo rating going into that match. They won their group over traditional powers Argentina and Italy, beating both teams. Poland may not be a traditional power, but you didn't get an easy draw when you're playing a team with a 2035 elo rating. Yugoslavia was pretty good too and had a 1934 elo rating. Sweden had an 1838 rating. The format was different than normal KO stages, but basically they played teams with 1838, 1934, 2035, and 2034 elo ratings in the KO stages. I simply don't think that can be regarded as a weak draw. 5. What's the problem with scoring more goals at home? The problem with that would logically be that one is scoring only in the easy matches that the team would win anyways. But it's empirically true that his goals changed the results of a very very healthy amount of matches for Bayern (I believe I've shown data on this in this thread, but maybe not) and was a HUGE factor in changing the results of competitive matches for Germany (which I know I have shown in this thread). He wasn't just tacking on goals in easy home wins. 6. As for his scoring record against Italian teams, first of all that's not a bad scoring rate against top teams that play very defensively. Second, where are you finding those matches? I may be missing something, but I can only find Bayern having played an Italian team in European competition one time (the 1967-68 European Cup Winners' Cup). He didn't score there, but I can't see where else he ever played an Italian club, let alone where he had 15 matches against Italian clubs. You can hardly besmirch his record based on a measure that only takes 2 career matches into account. By your comment, I guess you're talking about friendlies? In which case, I think you're really reaching. Friendlies were more competitive back then, but it seems to me that your point can be boiled down to "Gerd Muller can be criticized for not scoring tons in friendlies against Italian clubs." That's a self-evidently weak argument IMO.
Some of the things you say are just not true or half-truths (one hint: remember Haller 1966, D. Muller 1976, Seeler, the post-1966 playing formation changes). Given that you continue with argument and statement twisting (i.e. mutilate previous comments into something else, with deceiving quotation marks), I will not reply to this. It is manipulative to just insert a replacement argument and strawman. Your previous post was OK, but now the dirty tricks start again. In the other thread the word 'silly' etc. (not to me) is also put to great use again.
Also, @PuckVanHeel the point you are trying to make above seems odd. I said that Germany is pretty much always consistently in QFs and does not always have someone who scores like Muller. You then respond with a few examples of nice scoring by German strikers. Of course, I didn't say Germany NEVER has a big scorer. That would be false for ANY big team. You fail to acknowledge tournaments where they haven't had such scorers, though. For instance, they didn't have a big scorer in the 1978 World Cup. I could name a bunch of other examples. It's manifestly correct that they don't always have a scorer like Muller. And that demonstrates the point, which was that merely having a team as consistently strong as Germany does not automatically mean a striker will score like Muller did. And its worth noting that even those who DID score like Muller for a tournament did not do it over multiple tournaments like Muller did. Haller barely scored at all for Germany outside of that tournament. Dieter Muller only got 2 goals in 4 matches in 1978 (not a bad haul, but not great either). So two things are true: First, Germany is always good but does not always have a striker who is scoring godly amounts. Thus, saying Germany is consistently good does not somehow show that what Gerd Muller did was simple. That was the point I made, and you chose to respond to it in a super aggressive manner saying it was untrue and "dirty tricks" despite not being able to disprove it at all. Odd. Second, the players who HAVE had single tournaments like Gerd Muller had did not repeat the feat multiple times like he did.
gerd müller season 1973/74 64 competive games played , 30 friendly games played away (not at home)..total 94 games....the last game of gerd müller of the season(game 94) the worldcup final against netherland scoring the gamewinner for the 2::1 win....winning and scoring 2 goals in the eurochampionscup replay final, ec topscorer ....winning the bundesliga and topscorer title , scoring the decisive 1:0 gamewinner against offebach in a must win game in round 33 to play next (rest 3 days)2 eurochampionship finals and last bundesliga game in a timespan of 4 days... what a lucky year of the bayern munich players and gerd müller, everthing was servid him and his team on the plate.. in contrast. johan the king cruijff has played 42 competive games in season 1973/74...22 games lesser than the bayern munich players inclusive gerd müller .....the fresher legs for sure johan the king cruijff had sure netherland has played 4 big name countries in worldcup 1974.....but a big name doesent mean class...... argentina 6 games played 1 win (haiti),2 draws 3 defeats...uruquay last ranked in the first round group and eliminated with 1 point, (sweden won 3:0 against this team, example).........east germany 2 wins,2 draws and 2 defeats... poland 6 wins,1 defeat.....brasil 3 wins,2 draws 2 defeats........sweden 2 wins,2 draw 2 defeats....this was the teams with no negative stats..
Agree that Poland at WC74 was a better side than anyone except the two finalists, and probably in a neutral venue they could have beaten either one. A great side with Deyna, Lato, Gadocha, Zmuda, Maszczyk and Tomaszewski.
gerd müller has scored important goals in all 6 1970 wc qualifer games ,( sometimes playing with diffrent offensive teamates , sepp maier was used onlyin 3 of this 6 games , seeler used in 1 of 6 games , example)..and continued to score important goals, assists in all 3 worldcup first round group games against marroco,bulgaria and peru...and you complain a bit against england and italy it was his teammates who has scored the important goals in regulare time and müller only scoring his goals in extratime against both teams.???against italy beckebauer in extratime has played with his arm in a sling and still with this disadvantage for the german team in extratime müller has scored 2 goals where did held his team in game for a while...it was for italy a bit lesser dificult scoring goals against germany in extratime than germany scoring goals against italy in extratime under this cirumstance .. ,... .so yes his teammates have scored important goals too...i think nobody think otherwise.... however van basten and cruiff have played semifinals as well 1976 and 1992 in big tournaments and both didnt score goals in regulare time against cssr and denmark if i remember...cssr has scored a owngoal in regulare time for a 1:1 ,1 cssr player send off prior..crijff didnt score in extratime ...van basten didnt score a goal in regulare time against denmark and didnt score a goal in extratime ..it was van basten where missed a key penaltyshot in penaltyshootout..... you knows what i mean?? if that are your arguments against müller ....its allowed for me to counter...at least müller did somthing sucessful against england and italy...the game against italy often called the wc game of century..not bad...
I just want to reiterate the following: Gerd Muller played 31 competitive matches for Germany. He scored a goal in 24 of those 31 matches (77.4% of matches). Let's leave aside that a bunch of the matches that he didn't score in were relatively unimportant (for instance, a WC 3rd place match, second leg of a tie Germany had firm control over, and a WC group stage match when Germany had already clinched going through to the next round). We will instead just look at that 77.4% number on its own. Is there any player who can come close to that? Pele had 26 competitive matches for Brazil (not counting the random cups they played that I wouldn't consider on the same level). He scored in 17 of those matches (65.4%). Eusebio played 38 competitive matches for Portugal. He scored in 18 of them (47.3%). Romario played 38 competitive matches for Brazil. He scored in 23 matches (60.5%). As far as I can tell, Gerd Muller is in a league of his own in terms of the percent of competitive matches he scored in for his NT. He simply always came through.
Now let's put this a little differently: What percent of a player's competitive NT matches did his goals change the result of the match? I know this doesn't capture everything because goals can be decisive even if the scoreline doesn't ultimately reflect that. But this is still a very good measure of the importance of a player's goals to his team's success. Again, Muller played 31 competitive NT matches for Germany. His goals changed the result of 13 of those 31 competitive matches (41.9% of matches). Pele's goals changed the result of 7 matches of 26 competitive matches (26.9%). Eusebio's goals changed the result of 10 out of 38 matches (26.3%). Romario's goals changed the result of 8 out of 38 matches (21.1%). Once more, I think Gerd Muller is in a league of his own. He had a habit of scoring crucial goals for his NT in a way that I do not think we have ever seen otherwise.
And in case someone somehow thinks this is a product of Germany (as if they are somehow different than dominant Brazilian teams...), consider the following: Before Gerd Muller showed up (so that one can't complain that the following is biased by playing second fiddle to Muller), Uwe Seeler played in 21 competitive matches for Germany. He scored in 9 of those matches (42.9%). Again, compare that to Muller scoring in 77.4% of competitive matches. Meanwhile, Seeler's goals changed the result of 6 matches (28.6%). Compare that to Muller's 41.9%. Klaus Fischer played 22 competitive matches for Germany. He scored in 11 of them (50%). His goals changed the result of just 2 matches (9.1%). Prime Rummenigge (1979-1984) played 38 competitive matches for Germany. He scored in 16 matches (42.1%). His goals changed the result of 5 matches (13.2%). These are some very accomplished forwards who played significant numbers of matches* for Germany both directly before and after Muller played for Germany. None had anywhere near the consistent production of crucial goals that Gerd Muller had. *I did not include Dieter Muller since he played just 6 competitive matches, which is simply not a significant number to draw a conclusion on. He scored in 4 of 6 matches and his goals changed the result of 3 of 6. Those are roughly in line with Gerd Muller, but again, it's so few matches (not even a full World Cup's worth of matches...), so I don't see this as significant. I only note it because I know someone *cough*Puck*cough* will make a mountain out of it if I don't.
Between Gerd Muller's first and last appearance of the German NT, the team played 18 matches without him (taken from Transfermarkt data). In those matches, they scored 27 goals (1.5 goals a match). In matches with Gerd Muller, they scored 2.31 goals a match. Furthermore, a good portion of Germany's goalscoring without Muller was due to a few matches they played just after his very first match (i.e. in 1966 and 1967), which was properly before the era of the German team that he really played the vast majority of his matches with. If you take those matches out, the team only scored 1.2 goals a match in 15 matches without Muller. Again, this is a team that scored 2.31 goals a match with him. Either way, Germany scored a very significant amount more goals with Muller. Relatedly, in those 18 matches without Muller, Germany had 8 wins, 6 draws, and 4 losses. They had 45 wins, 9 draws, and 8 losses in matches with Muller. Again, if you take out the three matches that came super early on and kind of in a different era from the team he played the vast majority of his matches, Germany had 5 wins, 6 draws, and 4 losses without Gerd Muller. Either way, the team's success with Muller is wildly superior to its success without him. It is exceptionally clear that Germany was at a completely different level when Gerd Muller played. Given that fact, it's hard to put much credence in the idea that he was somehow simply a product of a great NT. The NT simply was not all that great when he did not play.
Just to correct myself, Muller's goals changed the result of 14 competitive NT matches, not 13. So it was 45.2% of his matches, rather than 41.9%. Even better.
this are the 7 games müller didnt score goals in competive nt matches..... 1:yugoslavia-germany 1:0 ecq 1967 (müller broke his arm in minute 79 or 80 and has left the field, no substituts allowed) 2:germany-uruqauy 1:0 wc 1970 third place match in mexiko (müller 1 assist) germany-poland ecq 1971 0:0 germany-england ec playoff quarterfinal 1972 0:0 germany-chile 1:0 wc first round germany-gdr 0:1 wc first round germany-sweden 4:2 wc second round (2 assists,1 created penalty) 39 goals scored in 31 competive matches... 3 penaltys ( 1 penalty he has created) 14 goals scored with headers 7 goals scored leftfooted 12 goals rightfooted 3 goals , no information
I think it's important to put together some of the information I have provided in this thread. The objection to Gerd Muller's greatness and status as perhaps the greatest scorer in football history largely centers around the idea that his goal hauls were due to his teams being so prolific. I've provided a fair bit of evidence that goes against this conclusion (particularly that his teams actually scored a relatively low amount of total goals compared to other all-time great scorers' teams). The evidence I focus this post on is the fact that Gerd Muller's teams scored very low amounts when he did not play. This both indicates that Muller is clearly not a product of his team, and also gives us a good idea how incredibly important Muller was to his teams' successes: In matches that Gerd Muller played for Germany, Germany averaged 2.31 goals per match. They had 45 wins, 9 draws, and 8 losses. In the 18 matches that Germany played without Muller in the time period between Muller's first and last appearance for the German NT, Germany scored only 1.5 goals a match. They had 8 wins, 6 draws, and 4 losses. In 33 league matches that Muller did not play from 1966-67 through 1977-78, Bayern Munich scored 1.24 goals a match. In that same time period, in league matches with Gerd Muller, Bayern Munich scored 2.31 goals a match. They got just 27 points in those 33 league matches Muller did not play in (0.82 points per match). This rate is equivalent to the point haul of relegation threatened teams in that time period. They averaged 1.31 points per match in matches with Gerd Muller, which is equivalent to a title-challenging team in that time period. I just do not see how someone could argue that Gerd Muller's scoring is a product of his team and not vice versa. Both his club and his NT scored WAY less when he did not play. We would not expect such huge differences if the team was simply creating tons of chances that anyone would score and Muller was merely the beneficiary of those chances. If, on the other hand, Muller's greatness is what spurred his teams' scoring, we would expect to see exactly what we do actually see: the teams' scoring going way down when he does not play. Furthermore, it should be clear that his teams' successes have a lot to do with him. He played for a club and a NT that are both amongst the greatest teams ever. And yet, when he did not play, they were decidedly mediocre. His club played like a relegation-threatened team without him. And his NT won just 44% of the matches that he did not play (as opposed to winning 73% of matches with him). I think it is manifestly obvious that Muller was not a product of his teams. Rather, the evidence indicates the opposite is true. This fills in pretty much the only objection to Muller's status as the greatest scorer in history. And, more generally, the fact that two of the greatest teams in history were mediocre when he did not play certainly aids his case for being high on an all-time list, since it indicates his influence was huge. @PuckVanHeel @Pipiolo @carlito86 @leadleader @Gregoriak @621380 @PDG1978 @Estel
Certainly interesting data, and I think we should all agree that he was at least one of the best scorers and probably the best poacher (not to say he was only a poacher). I think the point that he wouldn't do everything by himself and create his own goals or open up defences when picking the ball up just inside the opposition half etc is true, as is the fact he was the main focus for goals and had players that provided him in a system that facilitated that. But I think his awareness, sharpness, shot accuracy/efficiency (not to say he never missed but that he was regularly making good use of chances and even half chances) is obviously a big reason for such data and the hypothesis that Germany/Bayern might not win the big trophies they did without him seems reasonable. I would say both Pele and Cruyff (though nobody disputes them as top 20 players I suppose) had hugely positive impacts on the success of club and national teams too (and there was a decline after they finished playing for them although I know there is the argument that the Dutch got as far in the WC in 1978 as in 1974 and I suppose it's hypothetical to suggest that with Cruyff they might well have won vs Argentina just as they did in 1974 albeit against a lesser Argentina team with no home advantage). And Pele's own claims as best ever scorer (or best impacter on team goals to look at it another way) wouldn't be harmed by the increase in goals of either Santos between 1956 and 1957 (when he was top scorer in the league) in the Paulista for example, or for the 5 WC games before he entered the team (1954 and first two in 1958) compared to the 4 at the end of the 1958 WC. In both cases the gpg rate of his team climbing by a bit over 1 gpg I think (I remember we discussed Santos a while ago but forget exactly how the discussion panned out). So Muller wouldn't be unprecedented in this way I suppose, but on the other hand the impact still looks very substantial.
As you implicitly mention, Pele and Cruyff are considered much more highly than Muller. I'm not arguing that Muller is as good or better than those guys. I am arguing for Muller to be in the 10-20 range, and I personally put him near the top of that range. So a comparison with Pele and Cruyff cannot really go against anything I'm saying. Still, it's notable that guys like Pele and Cruyff don't definitvely come out better than Muller in this regard (in fact, I could argue that they don't come out better at all, but that's getting in the weeds, and I think they're still better players so I won't bother). It speaks well to Muller's influence on his team. What I'm most concerned about, I suppose, is the argument that Muller is the greatest scorer ever. To me, that argument is clear when you look at the goals per match the main contenders have scored while keeping in mind how prolific their teams were at scoring. Muller is at or near the top of club and NT scoring rates, while being on teams that scored near the bottom relative to other all-time greats. The fact that his teams scored borderline-pitiful amounts of goals when he did not play only reinforces this. Other all-time great scorers simply had more prolific teams, yet Muller scored just as much or more. This conclusion is particularly interesting given the dominant narrative surrounding Muller that he was somehow just a product of particularly prolific teams that just fed him chances. That narrative is plainly incorrect. The only argument against Muller that is left is some idea that his teams were uniquely focused on him. And, remember, the argument cannot just be that his teams focused on him. It has to be that they focused on him more than other all time great scorers' teams focused on them. I just don't see the argument working. Puck tried to make this argument by saying Muller benefited by playing in a 4-3-3 with non-scoring wingers, a formation that purportedly would maximize a striker's scoring rate. The problem is it doesn't quite fit the facts. As has been pointed out, Bayern spent a large portion of time being known as a "winger-less" team, and the wingers they did have over the years were largely not particularly talented anyways. This hardly provided a unique avenue of goal creation for Muller that other all-time greats lacked. Meanwhile, Germany did not actually play with a 4-3-3 for about half of Muller's NT career. Instead they played with various formations such as a 4-4-2, 4-2-4, and 3-5-2. And Muller scored just as much in those different formations. If you try to fit those other formations into the narrative too, then you're pretty much jumping the shark because virtually every all-time great striker played in one of the above formations, as they're amongst the most popular in the sport's history. Ultimately, then, I just don't see an argument that Muller's teams/tactics were more focused on him than other all-time great strikers' teams/tactics were. So we are left with the following: Muller scores at or near the top of club and NT scoring rates amongst all-time great scorers. His teams were at or near the bottom in terms of how prolific they were at scoring. And there's no real reason to believe that his teams were particularly focused on getting him goals. When you combine all that, I think it leads to the conclusion that he is the greatest scorer ever. Ultimately, he didn't excel a ton at other areas of the game, so it's not enough for me to put him in the very top tier, but I think it should be enough to get him pretty high up.
This. To have more goals than games for your country is absurdly brilliant especially when he answered the bell so many times in important matches.
nice Observation...in the past i have mentioned the 68/69 to be a very competive Season with Gerd müller scoring about 50 % of Bayern munichs goals..Nürnberg was defending Champion and was relegated...only 10 Point difrense between unlucky nürnberg and runner up alemania Aachen...the 6os are very often ignored if judging Bayern munich and Gerd müller...gerd müller was send of questonable in a match against Hannover and was out 4 Bundesliga games..Bayern without him scored only 3 Goals and has conceeded 7 Goals..2 draws 2 defeat, 2:6 Points there was olso a kicker article for this Season -IS BAYERN MUNICH A FC MÜLLER ?...the other Teams didnt fear Bayern munich without Gerd müller..and Gerd müller was a Monster in domestic Cup as well scoring 7 + 1 assist for all 8 Goals Bayern has scored to win the Cup..he did this playing 1 games lesser than his teammates..(0:0 after extratime against Offenbach..)i think thats unique in Football history that a Player had such an Impact winning a domestic Cup....it was olso bayern munichs first and most important german Bundesliga title...the only other german Championship Bayern has won was 1932 under difrent rules...Bayern was olso the first double winner since 32 years..the Team was schalke 1937....and the next double winner was cologne 1978 i think..so it was in this days very rare a Team won both titles... here Bayern munichs results against both Teams 1968/69 (Bundesliga and cup)nürnberg and Offenbach where both was relegated in Bundesliga bayern-Nürnberg 3:0 (müller 3 Goals) offenbach-Bayern 0:0 (with müller) Nürnberg-Bayern 2:0 (with müller) bayern-Offenbach 5:1 (müller 3 Goals) bayern-Nürnberg 2:0 ( Close game, müller 2 Goals) Cup bayern-offebach 0:0 after 120 minutes (without müller)Cup offenbach-Bayern 0:1 (müller 1 Goal)Cup replay..
Gerd müller Season 1974/75-1976/77 has missed 22 Bundesliga games due injurys and Bayern munich has scored 25 Goals for 6 wins,5 draws and 11 defeats..25:41 goals.so what does that tell you??..this is part of his Career too.. (((or gerd müllers Impact 1968/69-1977/71 ...90 goals.....playing with offensive/midfield of Rainer ohlhauser,brenninger,starek,franz roth,helmut Schmidt,mrosko and 1970/71 with Newcomers Rainer Zobel, Edgar schneider and hoeness ))) the Quality of the Teams Bayern has played in this 22 games without müller was equal like playing 22 times a Team where has finished the Bundesliga Season ranked 9th (middleclass Team).. in this 3 Season Bayern has played 12 games against Teams where was relegated ..in this 12 games this relegated Teams have scored 17 Goals against Bayern...in contrast in 22 games same Seasons Bayern has scored without müller 25 Goals.. ? Bayern Players: torstenson 81 Bundesliga games ,11 Goals... 1973/74-1976/77, disapointing klaus wunder 43 Bundesliga games ,7 Goals (1 pen)..1974/75-1975/76, disapointing Rummenigge 84 Bundesliga games, 25 Goals, 1974/5-1976/77, average kapellmann 113 Bundesliga games, 16 Goals ..1973/74-1976/77, hoeness 72 Bundesliga games, 21 Goals...1974/75-1976/77, average Rainer künkel 18 games ,4 Goals..1975/76-1976/77, ,,Rainer künkel i have mentioned to Show you how disapointing klaus wunder was if we put in perspective künkel didnt have many Career Bundesliga games.. total 84 Goals.. Gerd müller 80 games , 75 Goals ..1974/75-1976/77 injury crippelt and playing away games often in midfield in contrast . barca without messi in 18 la Liga games the last 4 Seasons , 16 wins,2 defeats..51:12 goals real Madrid without c. Ronaldo in 17 la Liga games 13 wins,2 draws and 2 defeats..37:13 goals check the Quality of the Players barca and real Madrid or Bayern munich had in the last 7 years.. the Teams Ronaldo 9 has played Overall didnt colapse without him, far away.. ...
i knows for sure (videofootage)Gerd müller has 1 assist against Borussia Dortmund Season 1976/77 away..the game has ended 3:3, Rummenigge scored.transfermarket doesent list this assist..another assist ( i have videofootage)not listet is Gerd müllers assist for Rummenigge away against Hertha Berlin, 1:4 defeat in Season 1974/75...in Season 1973/74 against Wuppertal Bayern won 3:0 (iam not 100% sure ), but ist possible müller has 2 assists in this game..i have to check the Highlights.. transfermarket and others doesent have or list 100% Information about all assists in this timeperiod for Gerd müller or other Players i think for the 60s-70s.... its a bit a grain in the salt situation..
i have found on YouTube videofootage of Gerd müllers assist against dortmund Season 1976/77... Gerd müller has 2 assists against Wuppertal Season 1973/74..shortpass assists in the box..i have checked the videofootage i own.. i own a Agon Publikation of Bayern munichs 70s Season with Information of Bayern munihs Bundesliga games of the 70s.. 1972/73 against Hertha Berlin away müller has suffred a particulare calfbone fracture in this game and was substituted in the first half..Prior in this game he has scored sucessful a Penalty and ist olso mentioned in this Publikation -the scorer of the Goal (( bayen munich had a 1 lead due müllers penalty)) with a great backheel pass has assistet Hoffmann for Bayern munichs 2:0...so this suggest me Gerd müller did have a assist (for Hoffmann)in this game not listet in transfermarket too..the game has ended 5:2 for Bayern.. for this game there excist no videofootage..