Gerd Müller is a top 20 player

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by lessthanjake, Jan 16, 2016.

  1. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #1 lessthanjake, Jan 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
    I think Gerd Müller doesn't get the respect he deserves. To me, he's clearly a top 20 player.

    General Goalscoring Numbers:

    Club Level:

    Starting in the 1965-1966 season, Bayern Munich was actually in the Bundesliga, rather than in a lower tier league. From that season onwards, Müller scored 512 goals in 572 matches over 14 seasons with Bayern (0.90 goals a match). Broadly speaking, his prime was from the 1966-1967 season through the 1976-1977 season. In those 11 seasons, Müller scored 451 goals in 470 matches (0.96 goals a match). And he peaked with 85 goals in 60 matches (1.42 goals a match) in the 1972 calendar year (or 67 goals in 49 matches [1.37 goals a match] in 1972-1973 if you prefer his peak club season). This is a level of goalscoring that we have only really seen from the likes of a few people in history (Pelé, Messi, CR7, Puskas, and Eusebio are the only others I can think of who are similar). If you count friendlies and such like Pelé did for his reported goal tally, Müller has 1461 goals in 1216 matches, more goals at a higher goals per match rate than even Pelé.

    International Level:

    And Müller was not just a scoring beast at the club level. He had 68 goals in 62 matches for Germany (1.10 goals a match). He wasn't just padding his stats in friendlies either. In 31 competitive matches for Germany, Müller scored 39 goals (1.26 goals a match).

    Scoring in Important Matches:

    Nor can Müller be accused of just scoring tons of goals against lesser teams and not scoring in the big matches. The number of hugely clutch goals Müller has scored is staggering. Let's first look at his clutch goals for Germany:

    - Euro 1968 Qualifying: Germany did not make Euro 1968, but Müller had scored the go-ahead goal against Yugoslavia, after which Germany only needed to beat Albania in order to qualify (something they failed to do, while Müller did not play).
    - 1970 World Cup Qualifying: Müller scored Germany's lone goal two wins and a tie, including 90th minute and 88th minute winners. Overall, without Müller's goals, Germany would have had 2 wins, 3 draws, and 1 loss, instead of 5 wins and 1 draw. Obviously, any striker should get some goals but there's really a good chance Scotland qualifies over Germany with a lesser striker.
    - 1970 World Cup: Without Müller's goals, Germany doesn't even get out of the 1970 WC group stages. He then proceeded to score an extra time winner against England in the Quarterfinals. He then scored two extra time goals in the semifinals against Italy, in a match Germany nevertheless lost.
    - Euro 1972 Qualifying: Technically, Germany would not have made it out of qualifying without Müller's goals. But they'd have made it out with probably any decent striker who scored something. Still, he scored a game winner, a game-tying penalty, and a double in the most important game of qualifying (away against Poland, the #2 team in the group).
    - Euro 1972: Müller scores 2 goals in a 2-1 victory in the semifinals. And he scores the opening goal and the 3rd goal in a 3-0 victory in the finals.
    - 1974 World Cup: Germany were hosts so they didn't have to do qualifying. Anyways, Müller has a relatively quiet first group stage (only 1 goal in 3 matches). However, in the second group stage, Germany and Poland contested a match that was essentially the semifinals. Müller scored the winner (though Germany could've gone through with a tie, this was obviously still a big goal). Then Müller scored the winner in the World Cup finals.

    Basically Müller scored in an amount of big moments for Germany that is mind boggling. And he did it for Bayern too:

    - In 4 DFB-Pokal finals, Müller scored 4 goals, including both goals in a 2-1 victory in the 1968-1969 edition.
    - In the 1973-1974 European Cup, Müller scored 2 goals in the finals.
    - In the 1974-1975 European Cup, Müller scored a goal in the finals.
    - In the 1975-1976 European Cup, while he did not score in the finals, Müller scored all three of Bayern's goals in the semifinals against Real Madrid.
    - In the 1976 Intercontinental Cup, Müller scored a goal.

    I don't really think anyone in history has scored as many big goals as Gerd Müller.

    He was not on an Insanely High Scoring Team, unlike other top scoring greats

    Bayern in that era was really good. And they played in a relatively high scoring era. But times were different, and Bayern was simply not scoring like top teams today do (or like Santos did with Pelé or Benfica with Eusebio; both those teams dominated their leagues incredibly).

    Here's the goals per match scored by Bayern in the Bundesliga in Müller's general prime years:

    1966-1967: 1.82
    1967-1968: 2.00
    1968-1969: 1.79
    1969-1970: 2.59
    1970-1971: 2.18
    1971-1972: 2.97
    1972-1973: 2.74
    1973-1974: 2.79
    1974-1975: 1.68
    1975-1976: 2.11
    1976-1977: 2.18

    Bayern averaged 2.26 goals a match in the Bundesliga in that era.

    By contrast, since 2008-2009 (i.e. when Messi became a big goalscorer), Barcelona has averaged 2.77 goals a match. Since 2009-2010 (when CR7 showed up), Real Madrid has averaged 2.85 goals a match. Broadly speaking, Pelé's prime was 1957-1969 (after that his goalscoring has a steep downturn). In those seasons, in the Paulista, Santos averaged 3.14 goals a match. Eusebio's general prime was 1961-1962 to 1972-1973. In those seasons, Benfica scored 2.82 goals a match in the Primeira Division. Puskas was still in his prime for his first 6 years at Real Madrid. In those years, Real Madrid scored 2.62 goals a match. Meanwhile, Budapest Honved scored 3.47 goals per league match while Puskas was there.

    So compared to some of the other players in history with similarly great goalscoring numbers, Müller was playing for a team that scored a very significant amount less. Yet his goalscoring numbers are comparable to those other greats. Combined with the fact that he scored in so many important moments, I believe Gerd Müller is the greatest scorer to ever play the game. And the greatest scorer is surely a top 20 player.

    Does it matter that he was a poacher?

    The main argument against Müller basically holds that he may have scored tons of goals but he was just a poacher. I do not think this is a good argument against him. An individual poached goal may seem less impressive than other goals, but when a guy gets a huge number of them, then he is doing something to get those easy goals that other guys are not. And those things are clearly quite valuable. Basically, there are skills associated with poaching that go unrecognized. For instance, you need to be able to read the game tremendously well to anticipate what will happen and be at the right spot. You need to have incredibly acceleration over short distances to get to the ball first. You need to be strong enough to not get muscled away from the spot you want to be at. You need tremendous first touch, both to control a ball before shooting, but also to make good first time shots (which perhaps isn't classically thought of as "first touch" but it's basically the same type of skill). You need to be quite accurate to score in crowded boxes. I could go on. These are all skills that Gerd Müller was an expert at. And I don't really see why I should consider those as less worthy attributes than other attributes, when Müller's positive attributes lead to as many or more goals than other players' attributes. After all, a goal is a goal.

    Here's a hypothetical that I think illustrates this. What would you rather have? Player A scores 20 solo goals and 0 poached goals. Meanwhile, if you had Player B instead, in the exact same situation, Player B would score 0 solo goals and 21 poached goals. I'd rather have Player B. His ability to score poached goals simply outweighs Player A's ability to score solo goals.

    Furthermore, Müller was a good provider of goals too. I don't know quite how fully accurate these numbers are, since they're so old, but Transfermarkt lists Müller as having 106 assists in 427 Bundesliga matches (0.25 assists a match). Transfermarkt uses a rather wide definition of assists, but that's still a very nice average to have over one's whole career. Especially when people act like you had no skills beyond poaching. In his peak season of 1971-1972, he lead the league with 16 assists in 34 league matches (0.47 assists a match), and he had a few other seasons during his prime with similarly high assist numbers. We're not talking about a guy who did nothing but score. He actually lead the league in assists multiple times.

    No, we're not talking about a player who helps out much in midfield, or dribbles to move the attack forward that much. But if he had that stuff on top of being history's greatest scorer, then he would be a contender for GOAT. Without those things, though, he's surely still an easy pick for top 20.
     
  2. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona


    Notice a few things here about Müller:

    1. He seems to track back to defend quite a bit.

    2. Relatedly, he's not always the furthest guy forward. He can often be found in midfield areas. He frequently tries to make a run from deep in those situations.

    3. He is always looking to make clever 1-2's and first time passes when he gets the ball in dangerous areas. This is actually extremely impressive to me.
     
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  3. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Fine idea for a thread! It will be interesting how this thread develops ....

    Müller's most outstanding ability in my opinion was his very quick reaction time coupled with his two-footedness which allowed him to shoot almost in any situation. And for a small player his heading was very dangerous.

    As can be seen in glimpses in the video you posted Müller was not a one-dimensional lurker in and around the penalty box as the majority seems to remember him. Müller was quite regularly used as a defensive midfielder for Bayern in difficult away games. In the 1960s-/early-1970s usually those were European Cup games but by the mid-1970s it became ever more frequent for him to be playing a rather withdrawn midfield role also in Bundesliga away games. In spring 1977 Franz Beckenbauer jokingly asked whether he, Müller, wanted to take over his job as sweeper ...

    One of the best examples of his quick reaction can be seen in the clip here starting at 0:45:

     
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  4. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yeah, that's the type of goal that a lot of people would see and think "Meh, that wasn't a great goal" because it doesn't look good. But realistically, very few people would manage to get that goal. So it's actually quite impressive, even if it doesn't really look it.

    Yeah, I'm actually shocked by how much I see Müller in midfield or even defending in the videos I've managed to find (the video I linked to above being a good example). He has such a reputation as just a penalty box lurker because he scored tons of poacher-like goals. But it appears that he really did help out the team in lots of other ways. It also appears that he was very good at 1-2's and one-touch passes around the box, which is the sort of thing we associate more with a creative type of player.

    Watching him, it seems like he'd be an absolute nightmare to defend. As you point out, he can shoot in virtually any situation, since he was pretty two-footed and seemed extremely apt at taking off balance shots at times you wouldn't expect. Relatedly, he seems like he was amazing at basically getting the ball, turning and shooting immediately. Meanwhile, he also seems very able and willing to make quick one-touch passes to teammates when he gets the ball. It just feels like there's just so many things he's able to do very quickly upon receiving the ball that it would be extremely hard to defend. And, obviously, it was extremely hard to defend, as he scored tremendous amounts of goals and got lots of assists on top of it.
     
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  5. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Gerd Muller is a good guy, but at best he would be right at the top 25 for me. Also, I feel that you oversimplify the issue of poaching - sure he scored loads of goals but he was very dependent on his teammates for such success. For illustration, take a look at another of these hacks, Martin Palermo (admittedly an inferior player to Muller). A legend at a team of the stature of Boca Juniors, scoring over 200 goals in a dozen seasons while surrounded at various times by players of international profile such as Caniggia, Basualdo, Solano, Delgado, Barros Schelotto, Riquelme, Tevez, Palacio, Vargas, Insua. But in his three seasons in La Liga at mediocre clubs could barely score 20 goals altogether.

    Muller played his entire career except his first season at Bayern Munich, surrounded by players such as Beckenbauer, Breitner, Hoeness, Rummenigge, Torstensson, Roth, etc. Indeed a great career and he worked hard for his goals, but I am not too sure he would be so successful under different circumstances. Certainly a player who could not resolve a situation all by himself, as the other top 20 greats would do.
     
  6. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I'm not sure that's right though. If he just scored so much just because his team was so good, don't you think the team would've scored more goals than they did overall? After all, I just demonstrated that Bayern didn't actually score that many goals while he played for them.

    Take out Müller's goals from 1966-1967 through 1976-1977 and Bayern only scored 1.41 goals a match in the Bundesliga.

    Let's compare that with some other players:

    Take out Messi's goals from 2008-2009 to 2014-2015 and Barcelona scores 1.81 goals a league match.

    Take out CR7's goals from 2009-2010 to 2014-2015 and Real Madrid scores 1.85 goals a league match.

    Take out Pelé's goals from 1957 to 1969 and Santos scores 2.08 goals a league match.

    Take out Eusebio's goals from 1961-1962 to 1972-1973 and Benfica scores 1.89 goals a league match.


    In fact, amongst the top goalscorers in history, Müller's team was actually an outlier in how little it could score without him. That certainly doesn't tend to indicate that his potency is a result of his team being so good.
     
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  7. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    As for not being able to resolve a situation on his own, I also don't think that's true. Did he get solo dribble goals? No. But he was extremely effective at receiving the ball near the edge of the box with his back to the goal, turning, somehow making space for himself, and scoring. Considering that it's not all that hard for a team to get a striker the ball near the edge of the box with his back to the goal, that certainly seems like resolving a situation on his own to me.

    In any case, even if you were right, where's the negative for supposedly not being able to resolve a situation on his own? The problem with not being able to do that should be that you become ineffective when your team faces another really good team that can prevent your teammates from giving you the great service you need in order to be effective. In essence, a guy who can do it on his own is beneficial as a solution to difficult matches. But Gerd Müller is probably the best big-game scorer in the history of football. He certainly didn't become ineffective in tough matches. So either he was able to resolve situations on his own when the going got tough, or he was masterful at taking advantage of the relatively few opportunities his team was able to give him in tough matches. I think it's some combination of the two. As detailed above, he could create his own goals in his own way, and a hyper clinical player like him is exactly what you want when your team is having trouble manufacturing many chances.

    @Pipiolo
     
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  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #8 Pipiolo, Jan 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2016
    That could be a valid argument, but you should control for overall league goals per game. Isn't the Bundesliga a more defensive league than today's La Liga or the Brasileiro of the 60s? This may account for the lesser output by Bayern Munich.

    I wouldn't consider that as resolving a situation, since the situation is not at a standstill if his team is getting him the ball in good places. You interpret it right in the second paragraph, but your counter does not really follow logically. I don't know if Gerd Muller is the best big-game scorer in history, players such as Pele, Puskas, DiStefano, Messi all have a claim, plus even without scoring a player may be the best in the match (e.g.: Maradona in the WC86 final). But even if he is near the top, it does not necessarily follow that he decided the matches. You would have to take a look at the play and the goals to see how much of the contribution was Muller's.

    Here is a mental exercise: put Muller in Argentina 86 instead of Maradona. While I don't feel that any other great would have won the WC under those circumstances, and that includes Pele, with Muller for Maradona my guess is Argentina loses to Italy in the group stage and goes out to France in the round of 16. Even if they somehow manage to win their group, it's lights out when they meet Uruguay next. This is the sense by which I mean Muller cannot resolve a situation in the same manner as the other legendary players could.
     
  9. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I still think Muller was lurker in the box. sometimes he moved withdrawn midfield, but mainly he located front-edge. I don't agree he could only scoring, anyway, he looks finisher not provider.

    However, I like Muller, and he is my Top 15. He was greatest bomber, in my opinion, only Pele is better scorer(maybe also Messi).
     
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  10. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    You'd think that Bundesliga in the 1970s (which I tend to think of as a defensive decade) would've been quite defensive. But it's actually quite the opposite. The average goals per game scored in the Bundesliga in Müller's years was quite high (ranging from 2.8 to 3.5 total goals scored per match).

    Basically, the Bundesliga was an overall high scoring league that tended to have a lot of parity in scoring (for instance, one season a team won the Bundesliga after scoring 58 goals, while a team was relegated after scoring 53). Bayern did manage to have a few dominant seasons, but those were the exception. Generally, it seems the league was too competitive for any team to score insane amounts. And that generally included Bayern as well, even in years where they were good enough to be winning the European Cup. But, despite that, Müller scored a ton all along.

    In any case, the fact that it was a high-scoring league in general, yet Müller's team scored a relatively low amount of goals outside of his goals certainly tends to indicate that his scoring prowess wasn't just a product of his team being so amazing.

    First of all, how often do players decide matches from an absolute standstill where they haven't even gotten the ball in a good place to start with? That basically just encompasses solo goals from midfield and perhaps amazing through balls from very very deep that aren't in an already-dangerous counterattacking situation. How often do players do that sort of stuff? Even guys like Messi and Maradona, who are the ones that do that sort of thing the most, aren't doing that sort of thing that often. And they certainly didn't do it all that often in close/difficult matches where there's actually a "situation" to be resolved. It happened, of course, but it's not super common even for them, and gets less and less common quickly as you go down an all-time list. So I think the standard you are holding Müller to is one that almost zero players live up to in reality.

    Second of all, as for being the "decisive" part of a goal, that goes to the point I made in the OP. In my view, a striker is a very decisive player in a move if the goal would not have happened without him being the striker. That's almost by definition true. You're clearly decisive if your presence (as opposed to a different player being there instead) is a necessary factor in the goal. Müller got poached goals that other guys would not have gotten to, because they didn't have his anticipation, strength, acceleration, etc. So, tons of his poached goals were ones that would not have happened without him being the striker. To me, that means that he had plenty of goals he was decisive in, even if they may just look like a poached finish on a team move.

    Here's what I'll say on that:

    Obviously, I don't know what would happen if you put Müller on Argentina 1986. Certainly, Müller would get goals. He'd probably get about a goal a match (remember, we're talking about someone who scored 1.2 goals a match at major tournaments for Germany, so saying around a goal a match is a downgrade in recognition of Argentina perhaps not being as good). And Müller didn't have problems getting goals against top teams, so I don't think his goals would suddenly dry up in the KO stage.

    In the end, though, I wouldn't say Argentina would actually win the WC. After all, they didn't completely breeze through despite having the greatest WC performance ever from Maradona. I don't think Müller could equal that. And I obviously think Maradona is superior to Müller. So it would be a bit odd to say I think they'd still win with an inferior player. I don't think it's impossible though. After all, we're talking about a player who scored 10 goals in 5 matches in a WC. A performance like that might very well have been enough for Argentina to win (though, of course, it wasn't enough for Germany in 1970, since they managed to concede 3 extra time goals to Italy). But no, I don't think they'd have won. However, I think the same thing about pretty much everyone in history, so it doesn't exactly preclude me from putting Gerd Müller in the top 20. It only really demonstrates that I think Maradona is better than Müller.

    In general, I get what you're saying about resolving a situation. But I think Müller just had a way of clinically taking chances that others might have missed or not even had the wherewithal to have gotten in the first place. He was a goal machine. He did it even when his team wasn't scoring tons. And he did it in big matches. So I have no reason to believe the goals would dry up for Müller in any particular situation. The question is just whether his team would still lose despite getting about a goal a match from Müller.
     
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  11. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Bayern during most of Müller's prime years was not a greatly balanced team. Most importantly they lacked really class wingers.

    Rudi Nafziger, Dieter Brenninger, Günter Michl, Wolfgang Sühnholz, Edgar Schneider, Willi Hoffmann.

    That's the list of wingers Bayern had from 1964 to 1973 (Müller's biggest years scoring-wise). Not an awe-inspiring list of names I think.
     
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  12. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Der Bomber is most certainly a top 20 all time player. I have like 40 of those.. :p;)
     
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  13. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

    Dec 5, 2005
    Macondo
    He's widely regarded as one the best CF ever and his stats are amazing.

    In drafts made on this forum before he was always picked in the top 20.
     
  14. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    All the greats have moments where they define a tight match through a piece of magic, of course those moments are not too common but my issue with Muller is that he doesn't have too many if any of these moments at the highest level. Sure, they include dribble goals and through passes, but it could be any play where the player does something beyond the script, a moment of inspiration that any spectator can feel immediately. For example, take Ronaldinho's goal against Chelsea in 2005...he is surrounded by the Chelsea defenders with no room to do much of anything, so what does he do? He lifts the ball using his back for leverage and places it exactly where Cech cannot reach it, leaving the defenders paralyzed...absolute magic. Or take Romario's toe poke goal against Sweden in WC14, again something completely unexpected and very rarely done that shocks the defense. Muller does not show at all this capability, not just the execution but the imagination, and in my view it should take away from him being ranked so highly as top dozen.

    We can also look at the Balon D'Or. Muller does well with one win and two other top three finishes, but other players such as Suarez, Charlton, Rivera, Keegan and Rummenigge accomplish similar feats just looking ten years before and after Muller's Balon D'Or. Of course all of them are great players but none is really thought of as being close to top ten of all time, even top twenty may be a stretch for any of them.

    Finally I also must mention that Muller benefits from playing in a position where stats are readily available and clearly quantifiable - you score a goal or you don't. There are other positions where this is not the case for a sport like soccer, and even when available the stats don't paint an accurate picture of what may have happened. Take the "Gerd Muller" of wingers so to speak, Luis Figo. His position is not close to goal, so his production is measured differently. Now Figo may dominate other stats such as dribbles, crosses, passing accuracy, etc. but usually these stats are not used to support an argument for a winger in the same manner that you are using the stats to support Muller. At club level Figo played alongside some fantastic players, Rivaldo and Kluivert for Barcelona and Zidane, Ronaldo and Raul for Real Madrid, but for Portugal he never had a class striker to take advantage of his creation. So the assists may not represent his contribution if Pauleta or Nuno Gomes fall on their asses or scoff the shot when the ball comes to them - which I saw those two do plenty of times. Likewise, the same applies to a center mid or even a playmaker who doesn't score a lot such as Zidane. Should the best of the poacher strikers, which I agree Muller is, be considered in the top 25/top 30? Arguably yes, I just can't see it as top ten or being very close to that.
     
  15. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I don't agree with this. In fact, Müller's greatness is largely based on scoring in unexpected ways. It's different than the type of magic you're talking about, but a guy who can score with random body parts or while completely off balance, etc. is certainly doing something beyond the script and completely unexpected. It's different, I grant you. And I understand that it feels like something that is less skillful. He wasn't about insane technique (though obviously any elite poacher must be excellent technically, since you need a very good first touch), but he produced unexpected magic in his own, less spectacular looking, way.

    A big part of my argument is kind of that Müller is underrated because people don't give enough respect to poached goals. It stands to reason that that underrating happened at the time he was playing too, not just now. So I'm not hugely swayed by that. In fact, I think it's actually pretty impressive that a poacher managed to do as well in the voting as he did. A 1st place, a 2nd place, and two 3rd places is better than what any similar type of player has done (unless you consider CR7 a similar type of player :sneaky:).

    Furthermore, it's not like there are players outside my top 20 who actually have done better in Ballon D'or voting. You pointed out some guys who have similar Ballon D'or resumes (Charlton's one 1st and two 2nd places compares similarly to Müller's one 1st, one 2nd, and two 3rd places, for instance). But no one is wildly ahead of Müller. In fact, even within my top 20 are plenty of players who don't have better Ballon D'or resumes than Müller. For instance, Eusebio and Best.

    I think that's a fair point regarding goals being easily quantifiable, whereas other stuff is not. It makes judging players across positions much more difficult.

    Ultimately, though, the game is about scoring and I believe Müller is the game's greatest scorer ever, so he goes well within my top 20. But I also have room for plenty of players whose greatness mainly lies with other things (for instance, guys like Maradona, Garrincha, Beckenbauer, and Xavi don't get their spot in my top 20 based on their scoring).
     
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  16. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Fair point and that should be a plus for Muller obviously, but there is no doubt that he had great service overall from Bayern Munich. I guess the question to ask, with Muller and any other striker, is to what extent is the service the goal and to what extent does the player make a deal of a difference.
     
  17. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I think you have indeed identified the important question with regards to Müller.

    Personally, I think that a poacher is still super important to the goal if he would score while another striker would not. Given that Müller is the greatest poacher ever and objectively scored far more such goals than anyone else, I think it's very safe to say that a large portion of his poached goals were goals that, for whatever reason, other strikers would not have been able to score (whether because they wouldn't have anticipated it correctly, wouldn't have had the acceleration to get to it, the strength to hold off defenders, the balance to score while off-balance, the accuracy to score in a crowd, etc.). If he was scoring goals that other people would not have scored, then I think he absolutely makes the difference. Scoring when no one else would have is pretty much the definition of making a difference.

    What's odd about that conclusion is that many of these goals don't look like he made the difference. For instance, if Müller simply anticipated a play better than anyone else would, that might result in an easy goal that looks like it was just served on a platter for him. But, in that case, it wouldn't have been served on a platter to anyone else, so Müller really did make the difference. Same with having better acceleration, strength, balance, etc. These are things that all end up making the goal itself look easy and make the service look better than it was. But again, if Müller was poaching chances that no one else would've gotten (which I think he undoubtedly was), then I think he's more important than the service, no matter what the goal looks like.

    As a caveat, obviously not every poached goal is like that. There are plenty of poached goals that virtually anyone would have gotten. Müller surely scored those, as does any other striker. But Müller's massive goal tally was built on scoring WAY MORE poached goals than other strikers did. In essence, he scored the easy ones that everyone would get, but also got to a bunch on top of that that other players in history would not.
     
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  18. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    #18 Gregoriak, Jan 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
    When people talk of poachers I guess the picture they have in mind is the following: a creative player dazzles the crowd with a brilliant solo and then centers the ball where a poacher just has to kick the ball over the line which needs no skill ("my grandma would have scored that goal") or the skill-less poacher benefits from a bad defensive mistake which allows him to kick the ball into the goal without any trouble.

    I guess that's the scenario most people associate with a poacher.

    Now look at some of the goals Müller scored and you'll see that the assists he got where usually not out of this world brilliance by Rummenigge, Beckenbauer, Hoeness and the likes but - just as Lessthanjake explained it - were quite 'normal' assists which many players probably would not have converted into goals (note how many goals he's scoring with his left foot).



    Short clip of Müller assisting others:

     
  19. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Mind that Gerd Müller was famous for "scoring two goals out of zero chances" or "scoring goals out of nothing". Thus I think the notion that he was overly dependant on his famous teammates is actually not true.
     
  20. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Surely one of the most telling things about Muller's finishing is that his "trademark" goal was receiving the ball with his back to goal, twisting and then hooking the ball in. Almost by definition that can't be an easy finish.

    I also think that Muller is one of those players that the more you watch of the more you appreciate. I initially thought he was just a Gary Lineker style finisher but actually his game was a lot more nuanced than that and he also had a knack of scoring in almost every big game (as well as every small one). He scored two in the 1974 European Cup final (replay), the 1975 European Cup final, the 1970 WC QF (winning goal), two in the 1970 WC SF, the 1974 WC final, two in the 1972 European Championship final, one in the 1972 European Championship final.

    Then as well his record holds up on every level. He was just as good in continental competition as he was in the league, and he was also great in internationals, both Euros and World Cup. When you compare him to every other striker there is no black mark or question mark across his entire career. That's not true of any other striker in the same way (Puskas's World Cup record, Ronaldo's league record, Eusebio's Euros record, MvB's World Cup record etc).
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #21 PuckVanHeel, Jan 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
    Except that it is not completely the case. Think away the injury time Schwarzenbeck wonder goal (after an Atletico player was fouled and laying on the grass by the way) and the replay opportunity against a totally knackered Atletico side disappear - who wanted to stage the replay a few days later. Something similar holds for the late 79th minute 2-0 goal in the 1975 final (whether it is daylight robbery or not by the 2/20 graded official; it is the most unusual and error-loaded final there has been in 60 years history). Think that away and he's on 0 goals in 4 UEFA club finals, or 1 in 4 without the replay in this case. On this occasion no close range shooting chances served on a golden plate like the euro 1972 final, the 1976 Intercontinental Cup in particular and to a (much) lesser extent the 1974 World Cup final.

    Of course he has a long and winded career, like many West German players of that time ('Vorsprung durch Technik' - and a bit more), and he is clearly one of the best 'big game' scorers ever albeit at a high gpg era at league and international level (gpg in UEFA competitions collapsed drastically after 1976).
     
  22. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    You can do that with almost anything though.

    If the decision had stood to award Cyprus a 3-0 win in 1988 qualification after their goalkeeper was hit by a smoke bomb, there's a good chance that Holland don't qualify for Euro 88. So then we can knock off MvB's 5 goals at that tournament. Then he is a complete failure at international level having scored 0 goals in 2 major tournaments.
     
    BayernMessi1970, Dage and lessthanjake repped this.
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Because there have been more UEFA final replays? Nope, there has never been one before or again. Penalty shoot outs were already introduced in 1971. It's the exception, just as the 1975 final was the exception or calling up two new players at euro 1996 was an exception (with 1990WC). Anyway, I know your preferences and friends so nevermind. Just pointing out there's (almost) a similar blot in scoring 1 in 4 finals without replay.

    Nobody knows how that will pan out. Maybe in that case the 1992 volley against West Germany had sailed in instead of hitting the crossbar, or that legit goal against CIS had stood. Even the failure to qualify for euro88 is not a certainty. What we do know with certainty is that losing the 1975 EC final had meant missing the 1975-76 campaign.
     
  24. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    That's right. The old hidden agenda theory.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    'Friends' or 'socializing' with a certain group of people and 'preferences' does not equal 'hidden agenda'.
     

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