PDG is correct. Cubillas is mentioned as an attacking midfielder and Chile is represented by full-back Eyzaguirre, rather than by Figueroa or Leonel Sanchez. "Tiger" Khomich was first in a line of outstanding Russian goalkeepers and mentor to Yashin. Walter Gomez played only 4 times for Uruguay, due first to a domestic ban and then because he moved to Argentina to play for River Plate. Several observers rated him as highly, if not more highly, than his contemporary Schiaffino. Latin American posters will know more about him than me, but he probably ranks among the top half-dozen Uruguayan attacking players of all-time, along with the likes of Piendibene, Scarone, Schiaffino, Francescoli and Luis Suarez. In terms of the impact he had on spectators, he may have been the best of the lot.
As I said yesterday I'll upload another thing tomorrow (=now). In the same issue the editors also tried to list and rank the French players. It is good to keep in mind that at this point - 7 August 1984 - Platini had only one Ballon d'Or (FF their award) although he was on his way to win the 1984 edition with a landslide. Only the Portuguese and Swiss representative deviated: the Portuguese voter had Ian Rush at #1 and Platini #2; the Swiss voter preferred Tigana ahead of Platini. Tigana was #2 overall in the 1984 EPotY list. I hope it is readable. Clicking the pictures helps. Struggle to recognize all names to be honest! (except for some obvious ones as Ben Barek, Vincent etc.).
It's maybe a hard call ofc, but I could see Matthews in 45-55 with Parola (probably what he was doing in 1956 was similar to 1955 or it could be added on anyway for any ranking of players who fit 45-55....or using 46-56 might work ok if a year is 'lost' somewhere - I know you've started looking at decades ending in 90, 00 etc so you wouldn't want to adjust that even if ending at 2016 would work currently). Yashin seems like a good call for 55-65 I would think, although some sources were calling him the GK of the 1966 WC I know (or some commentators suggesting it at the semi-final stage or during the 3rd place match at least IIRC). I guess arguably Cruyff was world class between the end of 1966 and end of 83-84 we could suggest? But for one decade in your format perhaps 65-75 seems good to me (which would include probably his best Barcelona season following which he played the 1974 WC ofc). I guess he would merit top spot either way anyway very probably. Otherwise perhaps 65-75 would go to Beckenbauer, but there'd be a few interesting candidates anyway. Maybe even likewise for 70-80 but with less stand out candidates (and mainly different ones who can be more decisively placed in the decade apart from those two and pehaps Gerd Muller)?
Thanks. Yes, I started thinking about this and then I also came across some interesting eras like 2000 - 2010 indeed or 1990 - 2000 (just like you I tend to feel that 1990 - 2000 had relatively many wonderful technicians though probably a bit on the short end in terms of candidates for the 'super legends' category, so to speak, but it didn't have many consistent club teams and national teams either). For goalkeepers I tend to go with this. It is a tricky category because in their case age says the least and sometimes/often they also get a bump in recognition when they're long after their athletic and reactions prime, and overall not at their best any more. 1. Yashin (Soviet Union) [1955 - 1965] 2. Maier (West Germany) [1970 - 1980] 3. Grosics (Hungary) [1950 - 1960] 4. Beara (Yugoslavia) [1950 - 1960] 4. Gilmar (Brazil) [1955 - 1965] 6. Mazurkiewicz (Uruguay) [1965 - 1975] 7. Banks (England) [1965 - 1975] 8. Zeman (Austria) [1950 - 1960] 9. Schumacher (West Germany) [1975 - 1985] 10. Zoff (Italy) [1970 - 1980] I doubted about Banks (born 1937). Checked the Charles Buchan poll too here and they show him popping up at 1965 and beyond. He achieved some of his biggest fame and honors in 1971 and 1972 but e.g. Jonathan Wilson thinks (with benefit of hindsight - Captain Hindsight) he was already on the slide prior to the car crash with a few suspect England performances - I don't have a good view and opinion on this. I know that Zoff (born 1942) had his greatest triumph in 1982, but it was almost unanimously thought that he played one season too long (1982-83). Of course the 1982WC does contribute to his status but arguably he was more 'useful' in earlier years. The final somewhat doubtful case is Maier (1965 - 1975?) but eventually I thought this one fits better and takes the post-1975 honors plus domestic ratings into account, as well as the build up in national team appearances pre-1970. He's born 1944. Yashin (born 1929) his international recognitions are mostly located between 1955 and 1965 indeed, and then after 1966 (where he again made some errors btw) he wasn't the NT starter any longer. Toni Schumacher (born 1954) is made 'easy' by the fact that FF their list is obviously only until 1984. As you know I agree with you that JC14 was consistently excellent in 1983-84 against some very strong opponents (complimentary articles in FF and Guerin Sportivo) but tbh the best shape and run-of-years, where he might've carried teams to a higher level, take place either between 1965 and 1975 or between 1970 and 1980. Yes, after thinking again I agree about Matthews; 1945 - 1955 is his window where he built his legacy and international fame. Feel free to provide input on the GK bracketing.
Yes, I saw the list before your comments and the same names you discussed were coming to mind. Maybe a similar scenario for Banks and Maier? Perhaps at peak on the cusp of 1970 (maybe slightly afterwards, or maybe not) and 1975 respectively, but with better form at the start of 60-70 and 65-75 respectively as compared to the end of 65-75 and 70-80 respectively? I might suggest Maier for 70-80 instead due to some recognitions and not playing in the Bundesliga or for the NT before 1965, but someone like Gregoriak might have a better take on just how good he was as a young GK. 65-75 seems ok for Banks to me if he's not down-graded for the end of it I guess in any ranking (the 10 year periods won't fit various players ideally of course although I see what you mean in terms of generally being able to place players within one of them as a reference to when they were at their prime in general - if looking at specifically who the best GK's were over the 65-75 period as a whole maybe Banks does suffer slightly though?). Zoff seems right to me indeed.
Maybe @comme can help with Gordon Banks? Full-backs: 1. Nilton Santos (Brazil) [1955 - 1965] 2. Facchetti (Italy) [1965 - 1975] 3. Breitner (West Germany) [1970 - 1980] 4. Carlos Alberto (Brazil) [1965 - 1975] 5. Bossis (France) [1975 - 1985] 6. Djalma Santos (Brazil) [1955 - 1965] 6. Jusufi (Yugoslavia) [1960 - 1970] 8. Cabrini (Italy) [1975 - 1985] 9. Marzolini (Argentina) [1960 - 1970] 10. Heylens (Belgium) [1965 - 1975] The ones I doubted the most about were Paul Breitner and Georges Heylens. Those might be 1975 - 1985 and 1960 - 1970 respectively too. Facchetti (born 1942) his Ballon d'Or rankings are located between 1964 and 1975 so that's easy (in 1964 he received one point). The remainder is actually fairly self-evident I'm inclined to say.
I'd be inclined towards 1960-70 for him, just because of the car crash which basically rules him out from 1972 onwards. Having said that, I'd struggle to note any decline given that he won the FWA award in 1972 which should be a pretty good measure of his worth.
Yeah... Funny to see Cuissard and Bonifaci ahead of Tifana and Fernandez. They're completely forgotten nowadays. The list of GK is interesting. There are two stand-outs names : Darui and Vignal. Darui seems to have been a 'revolutionnary' gk back then, playing like a libero. I guess he was not the only one to do that but in his own way he's one of the creators of of the modern gk style of play. H's a bit forgotten nowadays and I think it's a bit unfair. Vignal was a true star in France in the 50's. He was brilliant though unconsistent. His post-carreer was less brilliant : he made a total of 27 armed robberies in the 60's and spent a dozen of years in prison for that . He died a few weeks ago at the age of 90.
Corrected version (Gordon Banks) plus central defenders; Goalkeepers: 1. Yashin (Soviet Union) [1955 - 1965] 2. Maier (West Germany) [1970 - 1980] 3. Grosics (Hungary) [1950 - 1960] 4. Beara (Yugoslavia) [1950 - 1960] 4. Gilmar (Brazil) [1955 - 1965] 6. Mazurkiewicz (Uruguay) [1965 - 1975] 7. Banks (England) [1960 - 1970] 8. Zeman (Austria) [1950 - 1960] 9. Schumacher (West Germany) [1975 - 1985] 10. Zoff (Italy) [1970 - 1980] Full-backs: 1. Nilton Santos (Brazil) [1955 - 1965] 2. Facchetti (Italy) [1965 - 1975] 3. Breitner (West Germany) [1970 - 1980] 4. Carlos Alberto (Brazil) [1965 - 1975] 5. Bossis (France) [1975 - 1985] 6. Djalma Santos (Brazil) [1955 - 1965] 6. Jusufi (Yugoslavia) [1960 - 1970] 8. Cabrini (Italy) [1975 - 1985] 9. Marzolini (Argentina) [1960 - 1970] 10. Heylens (Belgium) [1965 - 1975] Central defenders: 1. Beckenbauer (West Germany) [1965 - 1975] 2. Parola (Italy) [1945 - 1955] 3. Happel (Austria) [1945 - 1955] 4. Moore (England) [1960 - 1970] 5. Gustavsson (Sweden) [1950 - 1960] 6. Maldini (Italy) [1955 - 1965] 7. Verbiest (Belgium) [1960 - 1970] 8. Tresor (France) [1975 - 1985] 8. Jonquet (France) [1950 - 1960] 10. Germano (Portugal) [1955 - 1965] I doubted the most about Happel and Tresor. Maybe @babaorum can help with Tresor. Beckenbauer can be 1970 - 1980 too (minus the years 1979 and 1980, and maybe also 1978 but less likely). 1975 was imho a weaker year (can show a handful of mistakes in a half dozen of key games) but 1976 and 1977 were good again. About Tresor (born 1950) I heard and read things as that he was by the 1982WC past his best (and physically it does look like it), and he was already in 1972 player of the year. However, like so many sweepers/liberos he reached international form and the best form in the 2nd half of his twenties. His fame was ofc helped by the re-emergence of France in the second half of the 1970s, and the interest from some of the wealthiest teams in Europe for his services.
That's a tough question. I'd probably say 1970-1980 because he only had two good seasons in the 80's (1980-81 and 1981-82). He had issues with his back in his two last seasons and played relatively few games. On the other hand, he was very good from 1971-72 and onwards. the French NT was sh!t in the early to mid-70's but Tresor was generally very good and formed an excellent CB pair -nicknamed the 'black guard'- with Jean-Pierre Adams (who had an anesthesia accident in 1982 and who's been in a coma since then ).
In July 1998 the London Evening Standard asked each member of its sports team to choose the eleven greatest footballers to have appeared in the English game. After adding the votes together, the eleven (in no particular order) were Matthews, Finney, Wright, Charles, Charlton, Edwards, Banks, Moore, Greaves, Best and Dalglish. Apart from Wright and Greaves, the other nine were also Tim Vigon's top nine British players when he made his list a year later.
Halves: 1. Boszik (Hungary) [1945 - 1955] 2. Didi (Brazil) [1950 - 1960] 3. Ocwirk (Austria) [1950 - 1960] 4. Walter (West Germany) [1950 - 1960] 5. Liedholm (Sweden) [1950 - 1960] 6. Labruna (Argentina) [1945 - 1955] 7. Hanappi (Austria) [1950 - 1960] 8. Nestor Rossi (Argentina) [1945 - 1955] 9. Cajkowski (Yugoslavia) [1945 - 1955] 10. Coluna (Portugal) [1960 - 1970] 10. Van Hanegem (Netherlands) [1965 - 1975] Didi won the World Cup in 1962, almost 34 years old, but I believe he was better in 1954. I wasn't impressed by his 1962 form. I can also see the case why the 1950 - 1955 period doesn't quite fit, and it's true that the 1962 win (as well as domestic title) does add to his standing rather than what he did pre-1955. After 1962 he's also more or less finished at club level (his 1959 stay at Real Madrid left traces already). Nestor Rossi (born 1925) won domestic championship in 1955, 1956 and 1957 but by then he played 20, 22 and 19 league games - which was down from his younger years.
Why not Labruna 1940 - 1950? This would comprise his La Maquina days and two of his best three scoring seasons.
I assume that you might be starting at 1945 at the earliest to match the considered time (1946 onwards) the 'selectors' used. Which would answer Once's question too ofc. But otherwise I don't know whether Walter could even be a decade earlier (1940-1950) - I suppose it's very hard to gauge cases like that (even moreso than for a Stanley Matthews whose earlier years might have slightly more footage and/or reporting available?) and he was clearly still a quality player in 1958 (perhaps not the same status by then as a Liedholm though?), but he did score a lot of goals early in his career, including in Internationals, although what was going on in the world probably doesn't help put his stats and performances into context. Whether 1945-1955 therefore suits best for your purposes I'm not sure though? Not sure, but worth considering whether Coluna could be moved 5 years earlier? Probably not, but if there was impressive reference to his level before 1960 then maybe it'd be something to consider?
France Football was founded in 1946. This one is a bit of a mishmash (from FF, not you). Understand the difficulties of comparing across time but Pipo Rossi and Angel Labruna were contemporaries and clearly didn't play the same position. Didi was a converted inside-forward (inside right) and so were Liedholm and Coluna.
As you say the period 1940 to 1945 is a tainted one (he scored 19 goals in 24 internationals until 1942, 33 goals in 61 caps in total). Then after the war he started playing for the national team again in 1951 - he missed the first post war game that took place in 1950. It's the national team that is a driver behind his legacy. Whether he was 'world class' potential after 1955 - 'kicker' doesn't think so but there is the 1958 World Cup where he was decent. Then I consider also that for his club he started to score international goals (not many btw) in the 2nd half of the 1950s (in 1957 against Barcelona for example) and therefore I think 1950 - 1960 is his window. In that time it was less unusual to play at a high level until your late 30s (as compared to the 1980s), probably because the emphasis was on endurance capabilities, relative to other capacities (one of the reasons why Pelé was such a sensation and eye-opener btw; some ppl don't know it but Brazil was really cutting-edge back then, ahead of the curve). Of that we know that endurance capacity typically peaks at the age of 30 (on average; think of a bell curve), and that it is still not uncommon to sustain a high level until the mid/late 30s. About Labruna it is actually said by FF that they're led by hearsay and the 'fantasy' so to speak (the exoticism, the smoke). But indeed the list was supposed to be "post war". Furthermore, all but three of his national team goals took place between 1945 and 1955. There are two more at January 1956 (just outside the window) and one in 1957. In his last 13 caps he scored 1 goal, in his first 24 caps he scored 16 goals (until January 1956). He had his first cap in 1942 - scored his first goal in 1945 at his 5th cap - and his last cap in 1958. Finally, much of the world was in ruins between 1940 and 1945. All those reasons together made me place him inside 1945 - 1955. Also note that Moreno isn't there (if I'm not mistake he isn't even mentioned) and 'La Maquina' of the first half of the 1940s was more or less Moreno 'his' team. Publicity speaking. Correct me if I'm making a logical mistake.
I wouldn't say you made a logical mistake no (think you asked me and not Once?), but of course for players of that era we can't just go into Youtube and look up 'Fritz Walter vs Dortmund 1941' or something and use that to help form our views. So it's hard to get a gauge for just how good he was as a young player, but if starting from 1945 or 1946, I have a feeling 1950-1960 could be a decent choice indeed anyway as I think there were some post-war doubts about his form initially, or at stages before the 1954 WC anyway, IIRC? He'd had war induced illness/injury issues I think too?
Yes, I thought about that too (esp. the years 1945 to 1947 with limited appearances and games). Maybe he's for domestic form 1945 - 1955 (as his age would suggest, for a goalscoring forward) but internationally clearly 1950 - 1960 imho. The common descriptions about his playing style and positioning also seem to match best with these years, rather than his more prolific incarnation. http://www.rsssf.com/players/fwalterdata.html He was domestic champion in 1951 and 1953. Runners-up in 1948, 1954 and 1955. In 1948 he played 'only' in three of the five matches though, scoring one goal. Interesting story about the interest from foreign clubs in 1951: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Walter#1945_bis_1959
Having Labruna as a half-back is ridiculous, not sure what kind of hearsay got to their attention... About La Maquina and in my understanding, if one was to call it this or that guy's team, which I wouldnt, it would be Pedernera. Moreno was the best player of the bunch according to my knowledge (though some would say Pedernera). But Pedernera was the catalyst. His move from the left wing to the withdrawn CF position is what switched things up and gave birth to La Maquina. Loustau was a top shelf player for all I have read about him. One of the all time great wingers. Muñoz was no superstar but outstanding. Labruna was the most basic one of them. But he was the finisher and the biggest idol of the club, because he stayed so long, and mostly, because he openly hated Boca so much. He is for sure more fondly remembered/thought of by the fans than the others.
'Offensive midfielders': 1. Pelé (Brazil) [1960 - 1970] 2. Puskas (Hungary) [1950 - 1960] 3. Schiaffino (Uruguay) [1950 - 1960] 4. Platini (France) [1975 - 1985] 5. Charlton (England) [1960 - 1970] 6. Kopa (France) [1950 - 1960] 7. Sandro Mazzola (Italy) [1965 - 1975] 8. Sekularac (Yugoslavia) [1955 - 1965] 9. Sivori (Argentina) [1955 - 1965] 10. Albert (Hungary) [1960 - 1970] 10. Bobek (Yugoslavia) [1945 - 1955] For obvious reasons Pelé could fit in 1955 - 1965 too. The years 1961 to 1965 are the ones where he was matured and unquestionably the best in the world. Actually 1955 - 1965 captures perhaps more strong years and fewer weaker years (in the 2nd half of the 1960s) but it doesn't have 1970. Slightly contentious choice by the way to see him as a midfielder. Their own magazine reported about his (relative) inability/ineffectiveness to play as a midfielder in 1968 and 1969. Schiaffino (b. 1925) maybe 1945 - 1955? Difficult to say. Input would be helpful (who were his contemporaries? what period captures most of his best years? what stint brought him the fame?). The last one I doubted about is Sandro Mazzola (b. 1942). He has a few Ballon d'Or rankings in the first half of the 1970s but in 1963 and 1964 he was more prolific. He aged fairly well, in congruence with his style, but in his early 20s he was faster, played more advanced hence more goals. He had one point in the 1964 EPotY, 9 points in 1965... with as last ranking in 1973. At first sight Puskas might be 1945 - 1955 as well, but I researched this and he catapulted to European fame in 1953 (after the already degraded Olympics but before the England matches). This is also when the European tours/friendlies with Honved started - not earlier - and the stronger opponents for the national team per ELO ranking were met. 1950 - 1960 also captures his resurgence at Real Madrid, which added to his fame (just as Kopa was thought of as Madrid's MVP in 1957-58, in the same way Puskas was possibly Madrid's best player in 1959-60).
Is this true about Kopa? Where did you learn that? Dont you feel about Puskas as a midfielder the same way you feel as Pele?
Most of them fit better as "Offensive Midfielders" than Halves that had more emphasis in a defensive duty. I add Fritz Walter, too
All-Time TOP 50 Jan. 1986, made by Platini, published by Mondial from France All-Time Best XI & 1983 Best XI Oct. 1983, made by Eric Batty from World Soccer
Reading articles (both of the time and retrospective). This is a good one: http://www.football-espana.net/27182/my-golden-great-–-raymond-kopa-1958 http://www.francefootball.fr/news/1958-raymond-kopa/422767 As a very rare 'thank you' gesture Bernabeu allowed him to play for his national team (the other option was to play for Spain). It was really an uncommon gift. I'm reluctant to go too deep on this because I had once a debate with Pipiolo on this who reacted very aggressive and agitated (despite the articles I provided). I meant to say that Kopa was "possibly" their most valuable player in 1957-58 while Puskas was "possibly" this in 1959-60. Both in league and in Europe. Of course I don't know for sure, but I don't think it is impossible. In the final against AC Milan he assisted the late 2-2 equalizer and then pre-assisted the 3-2 winner in extra time. He effectively initiated both goals (as also reported by Marca); also the pre-assist for the winner was the unlocking move in the lead up to the goal. Di Stefano scored in the 1957-58 PD 'only' 19 league goals, including 5 penalties. Don't know how many assists (exactly) but he always had - until very late in his career - many more goals than assists. There's a real (mathematical) chance that Kopa's end product - with/without pens - was in the same regions for this league season. I'm not sure (even today media can be very wrong about things) but it's a possibility that he was in the league campaign and the decisive EC match their MVP. Yes I feel the same about him but a lot less certain. For Pelé we have footage across his whole career. Some thought (Eric Batty) that Puskas was a "midfield general" in his 20s; I have doubts about this but I don't know for sure (unlike Pelé). At Honved and for Hungary he was an inside forward and as RoyoftheRovers perfectly laid out they came in different molds and tasks ("roving", "goalscoring" etc.). This important nuance is difficult to dissect based on one full game and a few highlights. The press reporting was also of a different nature than in Pelé his time during the late 1960s. I'm just less than 70% sure on this. Just as I'm far from sure about 'La Maquina' other than that it's legacy enhanced and perpetuated immensely by folk tales, lores and mythological creations (within a press context not known for reliability and rationality). Think about Campbell his monomyth theory here. (edit: for clarity I changed 'he' in 'Puskas')
For the ones who did not see it, all his teams can be found here: https://beyondthelastman.com/2013/0...xis-football-in-a-smooth-and-cultured-groove/ https://beyondthelastman.com/2013/11/07/eric-battys-world-xis-the-seventies/ https://beyondthelastman.com/2014/03/10/eric-battys-world-xis-the-eighties-and-nineties/ A very insidious man.