France Football their all-time list (August 1984)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by PuckVanHeel, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Suddenly this one popped up in my mind. I saw it isn't mentioned on RSSSF or somewhere else on the internet so not everyone might know about this.

    As some are aware, I find it equally interesting to see the evolution in thinking rather than the list itself. From around this period (1983) Placar and International Football Book have been posted previously. If I overlook something, feel free to give a shout.

    The 2000th issue of France Football had also such list, created by the editors (the 1989 Super Ballon d'Or, 1999 century and 2005 'fiftieth anniversary of Ballon d'Or' shouts were casted by peers, not journalists). I will also post the comments, since that can be revealing too, including who they did not ask for a comment.

    (to be continued of course...)
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (click pictures to enlarge and read)

    Goalkeepers:

    1. Yashin (Soviet Union)
    2. Maier (West Germany)
    3. Grosics (Hungary)
    4. Beara (Yugoslavia)
    4. Gilmar (Brazil)
    6. Mazurkiewicz (Uruguay)
    7. Banks (England)
    8. Zeman (Austria)
    9. Schumacher (West Germany)
    10. Zoff (Italy)
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    [​IMG]

    Full-backs:

    1. Nilton Santos (Brazil)
    2. Facchetti (Italy)
    3. Breitner (West Germany)
    4. Carlos Alberto (Brazil)
    5. Bossis (France)
    6. Djalma Santos (Brazil)
    6. Jusufi (Yugoslavia)
    8. Cabrini (Italy)
    9. Marzolini (Argentina)
    10. Heylens (Belgium)


    Central defenders:

    1. Beckenbauer (West Germany)
    2. Parola (Italy)
    3. Happel (Austria)
    4. Moore (England)
    5. Gustavsson (Sweden)
    6. Maldini (Italy)
    7. Verbiest (Belgium)
    8. Tresor (France)
    8. Jonquet (France)
    10. Germano (Portugal)


    Half-backs:

    1. Boszik (Hungary)
    2. Didi (Brazil)
    3. Ocwirk (Austria)
    4. Walter (West Germany)
    5. Liedholm (Sweden)
    6. Labruna (Argentina)
    7. Hanappi (Austria)
    8. Nestor Rossi (Argentina)
    9. Cajkowski (Yugoslavia)
    10. Coluna (Portugal)
    10. Van Hanegem (Netherlands)
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    [​IMG]

    'Offensive midfielders':

    1. Pelé (Brazil)
    2. Puskas (Hungary)
    3. Schiaffino (Uruguay)
    4. Platini (France)
    5. Charlton (England)
    6. Kopa (France)
    7. Sandro Mazzola (Italy)
    8. Sekularac (Yugoslavia)
    9. Sivori (Argentina)
    10. Albert (Hungary)
    10. Bobek (Yugoslavia)


    Wing players:

    1. Garrincha (Brazil)
    2. Matthews (England)
    3. Best (Northern Ireland)
    4. Hamrin (Sweden)
    5. Gento (Spain)
    6. Rummenigge (West Germany)
    7. Czibor (Hungary)
    8. Riva (Italy)
    9. Finney (England)
    10. Ghiggia (Uruguay)


    Center forwards:

    1. Di Stefano (Argentina)
    2. Cruijff (Netherlands)
    3. Muller (West Germany)
    4. Eusebio (Portugal)
    5. Kocsis (Hungary)
    6. Nordahl (Sweden)
    7. Fontaine (France)
    8. Hidegkuti (Hungary)
    9. John Charles (Wales)
    9. Pedernera (Argentina)
    10. Mermans (Belgium)
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Included countries:

    7 - Brazil
    7 - Italy
    7 - West Germany
    6.5 - Hungary
    6 - Argentina
    6 - France
    5 - England
    4.5 - Yugoslavia
    4 - Austria
    4 - Sweden
    3 - Belgium
    3 - Uruguay
    2.5 - Portugal
    1.5 - Netherlands
    1 - Northern Ireland
    1 - Soviet Union
    1 - Spain
    1 - Wales

    [a shared tenth place is counted as 0.5]

    To be continued...
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #6 PuckVanHeel, Jan 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
    Now, some additional comments and cadres. As I said in the starting post, it is always interesting to take note - too - of who weren't asked for a comment.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (click to enlarge)

    For example; commenting Ballon d'Or winners:

    Di Stefano (Argentina)
    Pelé (Brazil) [received a honorific Ballon d'Or]
    Rivera (Italy)
    Muller (West Germany)
    Beckenbauer (West Germany)
    Rummenigge (West Germany)
    Rossi (Italy)


    There's also a ranking of French players elsewhere in the paper. That will be next (maybe tomorrow).
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I did a count on all listed players too (re-assigning several to the nations we'd associate them with more now though):

    29 - Brazil
    28 - England
    22 - West Germany
    21 - Italy
    18 - Netherlands
    17 - Yugoslavia
    14 - Argentina
    13 - Belgium
    13 - Sweden
    10 - Hungary
    9 - Austria
    9 - Portugal
    8 - France
    8 - Scotland
    8 - Spain
    8 - USSR
    7 - Czechoslovakia
    7 - Uruguay
    6 - Poland
    5 - Switzerland
    4 - Bulgaria
    4 - Northern Ireland
    3 - Wales
    2 - Denmark
    2 - East Germany
    1 - Algeria
    1 - Chile
    1 - Eire
    1 - Mali
    1 - Mexico
    1 - Peru

    Maybe on both counts more Belgians and possibly Yugoslavs than might be expected (despite the likes of Ceulemans and Susic, or of course youngsters like Scifo and Gudelj, not making it among 'current' players)?

    Looks like Zizinho got listed as a midfielder and attacker. I did see Neeskens discussed as an AM as well as being listed in the main midfield category though too. I might have expected Praest and Lenstra to be switched category wise?

    I think the formations for the A and B XI's are more 4-2-2-2 with one winger shown alongside a centre-forward (who could be a false 9 type himself, but those were put in as centre-forwards mainly while some attacking inside forwards are placed as AMs, or in the case of Labruna a CM), so not sure why Bozsik and Ocwirk seem to be shown as right winger (obviously not intended to be their positions as they'd be the deepest or joing deepest mids in such a line-up).
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think there might be no players listed who played prominently solely before the 1950's though?

    That would cost the likes of Italy and Hungary, and probably Argentina and Brazil, a number of other names including some very notable ones I suppose.

    It's interesting/notable that some players, especially from France (eg Piantoni, Vincent, Tigana - especially after Euro 84 although maybe in actuality this had started before it did?) were asked for comment but were not among mentioned names themselves.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, it is since they started publishing. 8 January 1946. See introduction (meilleur joueur mondial de l'après-guerre).

    There is some tendency to 1950s players, as well as some other tendencies I think.
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ah, ok, thanks - makes sense.
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Now I think about it again, of course it would have actually been more realistic for me to type Uruguay rather than Brazil I think too (especially with 1950 WC stars listed anyway - Zizinho, Ademir for example).

    Maybe to be fair the number of included English players can start to seem on the high side, since it is from 1946 onwards only? As you showed though there is less English representation in the top 10's.
     
  12. Di Pecruydona

    Di Pecruydona Member

    Nov 12, 2013
    Hamburg
    Club:
    MSV Duisburg
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't see any reason for Parola being rated at second place for central defenders, i did not even hear of him in any other positional or all-time ranking. Can anybody explain why he is rated that good? (Je ne parle francais)
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I remembered he was named in this poll in a couple of All-Time XI's too (by 2 Italians):
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/placar-greatest-footballers-1981-1999.1987390/
    Interesting Wikipedia page he has - I read the English version.

    I think it's interesting to see this kind of double-referencing anyway, a bit like for the similarly lesser known Romanian comme had mentioned as a tricky player from Euro 84 - multiple French sources noting him I notice, and he appears among the top rated players for that tournament by France Football.
     
  14. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Obituary by Brian Glanville

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2000/mar/24/newsstory.sport1
     
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  15. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I do find these lists absolutely fascinating, so well done here.

    This one is particularly interesting given the number of more modern names we often see.

    Verbiest was killed in a car accident so I wonder if his star was slightly higher than otherwise.

    Happel had just won the European Cup as a manager for a second time. He isn't often put ahead of his teammates Ocwirk or Hanappi but did rank highly in Voetbal's poll.

    Gustavsson was extremely highly rated by John Charles in particular.

    Interesting to note the absence of some South Americans like Roberto Perfume, Matosas, Sanamaria and Luis Pereira.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Are you maybe aware of other such lists or maybe just 'brainstorm' sessions by journalists? I mean 1980s or earlier.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #17 PuckVanHeel, Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
    I can try to put those players in 'eras'... Carlo Parola seems to among the few who fit in the 1945 - 1955 era (although they started publishing 8 January 1946). It's somewhat understandably an underrepresented epoch.

    Of course there are also borderline cases as Yashin who can fit easily both in 1955 - 1965 and 1960 - 1970 (he received votes in the very first Ballon d'Or poll). Also Stanley Matthews will be an interesting choice; do we go for his best years or for the years that made him a celebrity? It is partially overlapping but not entirely. Cruijff can go to 1965 - 1975 or 1970 - 1980 easily as well of course (considering the 1977 - 1980 league MVPs against some very good names and players playing in Spain and USA).

    On first glance many 1950 - 1960 and 1955 - 1965 players but I'll see.
     
  18. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    I have one similar thing from November 1959. Originally published in a Hungarian mag picked up here by Mundo Deportivo. It has been composed though by a single man. A Hungarian jounalist by name Ferenc Lantos who made World XI of the last years:

    Gyula Grosics
    Djalma Santos, Jose Santamaria, Nilton Santos
    Jozsef Bozsik, Nestor Rossi
    Stanley Matthews, Didi, Alfredo Di Stefano, Ferenc Puskas, Paco Gento

    Then he added an extended selection:
    Yachine, Zeman
    Hanappi, Andrade, Posipal / Wright / Martinez (Uruguay), Lantos
    Netto, Liedholm
    Garrincha, Julinho, Kopa / Kubala, Kocsis, Schiaffino / Hidegkuti, Milutinovic / Fritz Walter, Pelé / Czibor

    http://hemeroteca-paginas.mundodeportivo.com/EMD02/HEM/1959/11/05/MD19591105-002.pdf
     
  19. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    None that I don't think you are aware of.

    The ones I can think of are the Placar one you posted (also linked above by PDG), the one from El Grafico that I think Vegan posted before, and the one from Eric Batty that I posted before where he picked his personal XI.

    Obviously as well you posted the list from Norman Barrett's book (which I have since acquired) and also the one from the IFB which are useful.
     
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  20. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Others not mentioned include the goalkeepers Carrizo and Khomich; Netto, Vasovic, John Hansen and Walter Gomez. There is nobody from Chile (eg Figueroa), Ecuador (Spencer) or Peru (Chumpitaz, Cubillas, Sotil).
     
  21. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    And Figueroa????
     
  22. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Tim Vigon produced a book in 1999 called The One Hundred Greatest Footballers, with a foreword by Jimmy Hill. Not sure how useful it is as 34 of the 100 are British, but I can post his list if anyone is interested.
     
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  23. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Yes please.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    PDG counted one from Peru and Chile. Figueroa feels like the greatest omission. What's known about Khomich and Walter Gomez their status?

    Vasovic could've been in. His successor Blankenburg is included in the longlist while Vasovic is/was widely perceived as the vastly superior player, and he played at the same position. Of the 1968-1973 (1966-1973) Ajax team only one player made one of the top 10 lists.
     
  25. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    100 Greatest Footballers by Tim Vigon (Book published by Generation Publications, London, 1999)
    1. Pele
    2. Cruyff
    3. Maradona
    4. Best
    5. Di Stefano
    6. Beckenbauer
    7. Platini
    8. Puskas
    9. Matthews
    10. Eusebio
    11. Gullit
    12. Van Basten
    13. Charlton
    14. Yashin
    15. Moore
    16. Dalglish
    17. Garrincha
    18. Zidane
    19. Charles
    20. Edwards
    21. Matthaus
    22. Baresi
    23. Cantona
    24. Neeskens
    25. Finney
    26. Zico
    27. Banks
    28. Jairzinho
    29. Stoichkov
    30. Muller
    31. Baggio
    32. Ronaldo
    33. Weah
    34. Bergkamp
    35. Law
    36. Romario
    37. Maldini
    38. Hoddle
    39. Klinsmann
    40. Lineker
    41. Kempes
    42. Rummenigge
    43. Hagi
    44. Gascoigne
    45. Schmeichel
    46. Keegan
    47. Michael Laudrup
    48. Giggs
    49. Souness
    50. Ardiles
    51. Valderrama
    52. Blanchflower
    53. Zoff
    54. Boniek
    55. Papin
    56. Ginola
    57. Dean
    58. Marsh
    59. Shilton
    60. Rivera
    61. Passarella
    62. Beckham
    63. Riijkaard
    64. Hurst
    65. Seeler
    66. Hugo Sanchez
    67. Rush
    68. Billy Wright
    69. Bowles
    70. Rossi
    71. Voller
    72. Batistuta
    73. Bryan Robson
    74. Sammer
    75. Del Piero
    76. Roberto Carlos
    77. Fontaine
    78. Haller
    79. Cubillas
    80. Kohler
    81. Ronald Koeman
    82. Rivelino
    83. Owen
    84. Shearer
    85. Waddle
    86. Maier
    87. Rivaldo
    88. Francescoli
    89. Worthington
    90. Greaves
    91. Petit
    92. Caniggia
    93. Asprilla
    94. Yorke
    95. Paul McGrath
    96. Alan Hansen
    97. Zola
    98. Brady
    99. Beardsley
    100. Milla
     

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