Thanks for the contribution again - I used Google to translate. I can see what it meant with the reference to Cruyff, and others, already being established in the history of the game and that he is not in the middle of a rivalry. I do think he always admired Pele though for example and I'm not sure whether he ever said that he himself was the best? Ofc if that vote is not entered backwards then he put himself above Pele, but below 3 others. I think we discussed before that he might have wanted to offer a 'different' perspective with his vote even. Some would say that he is being less modest I guess by including himself but on the other hand he is not just declining to consider himself, but instead putting 3 others, or perhaps 1 other, ahead of himself which for a best player ever candidate could be seen as modest in a way. Blokhin and Baggio only placed themselves 5th but actually that is above where they'd be considered by the average 'judge' I suppose. I think Cristiano Ronaldo said to the BBC or an English source in an interview recently that he doesn't see himself as inferior to Messi even if the journalist might, and even sees himself as better. I've not seen the interview so whether he means that he decides to go on the pitch and believe he is the best, or whether he feels he is better than Messi I don't know. I remember Michael Owen referred to how he felt in 1998 by saying that he felt he was the best player when he went out onto the pitch and played accordingly. Maybe this is what CR7 meant, although I'm sure it'd be seen as more modest if he'd said at least "maybe Messi is better, I don't know" or something. But this aspect of rivalry is maybe what the author refers to. In a way maybe the equivalent would be Cruyff and Beckenbauer in the 70's rather than Cruyff commenting on Pele while he was still playing. But if the vote is correct he did decide to put Beckenbauer ahead of himself and 1st, with Pele behind and 5th (if it was in revers then obviously the reverse is true). Whether that can only happen a while after their careers finished I'm not sure...
Addition to this: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...ho-voted-for-who.1597402/page-7#post-32194836 http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...-the-century-who-voted-for-who.1597402/page-5 This is what the players said in the '50 ans de Ballon d'Or' book by France Football: Matthews Cruijff "without contest" then Puskas and Kopa. Di Stefano In no particular order: Kopa, Suarez, Platini, Beckenbauer, Van Basten. Then he adds others: Eusebio, Rivera, Masopust, Yashin, Sivori. Kopa Di Stefano, Cruijff, Charlton, Van Basten, Platini, Puskas. He seems to prefer Di Stefano. Suarez Di Stefano "first". Then Kopa and Eusebio. "Of younger generations" Platini and Van Basten. Sivori Makes no comments about that subject. Masopust In no order: Platini, Beckenbauer, Cruijff, Eusebio and Di Stefano. As opponent most impressed by Eusebio around ~1962. Yashin Makes no comments but he is quoted saying that Vava, Fontaine, Cisowski and Puskas gave him the most troubles. Denis Law Di Stefano Eusebio Di Stefano Charlton Preference for Di Stefano. Then mentioning Cruijff, Puskas and Beckenbauer. When asked for the "modern era" he names Van Basten, then Platini. Will do the rest later.
Albert Charlton, Eusebio, Beckenbauer, Jimmy Johnstone. Says Puskas is missing from the Ballon d'Or list. Best Di Stefano, Puskas. Of his generation Cruijff. Rivera "Most impressive" for him: Cruijff, Platini, Van Basten, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer. Muller "Not in order": Beckenbauer, Cruijff, Van Basten, Matthews, Matthaus. "With a little preference for the first two" [sic] Cruijff Says he's "not original" when he says Di Stefano was one of his youth idols. Di Stefano, Platini, Van Basten, Beckenbauer "and myself" are the "five players who left a mark on their particular time period." Seems reserved and mentions many players in his interview (Baresi for ex.). Beckenbauer Cruijff or Di Stefano, the "super greats". Blokhin "I place Cruyff above all others. This is my model player, my master." Then come Beckenbauer, Zidane, Platini and.. Blokhin. Simonsen Doesn't comment. Keegan Old collection of interviews, no comments about it. Rummenigge "In [approximate] order: Di Stefano, Cruijff, Beckenbauer, Platini and Van Basten." Rossi His personal five stand-out names: Platini, Van Basten, Zidane, Keegan and Rivera. "But I'm incapable of placing them in order."
Platini "Johan Cruyff for sure. After him come other players as Van Basten, Beckenbauer, Best. I really love Denis Law too." Belanov "At the first class 'ex aequo' Platini and Zidane. Then Beckenbauer, Cruijff and Di Stefano. I didn't see the last one play but his reputation speaks. And then, I have educated myself to make an estimation." Gullit Not in order: Cruijff, Van Basten, Rivera, Zidane and Ronaldo. Van Basten "If one only speaks about European players, I think that Johan Cruyff was a very special player, a person outside the norms. Michel Platini too. Together with Zidane and Beckenbauer, they are truly the players who impressed me most." Matthaus "I think the France Football jury is in charge for the choice." Beckenbauer "for sure", Cruijff, Di Stefano, Zidane, Muller. Appears to be placed in order. Papin "For me personally, the Ballon d'Or is Van Basten." Then mentions Gullit, Matthaus, Platini from his playing days. He finds Zidane good and Ronaldo too although he disagreed with his 2002 election. "And then Shevchenko, an extraordinary guy. Further back in time, Beckenbauer, Cruijff..." Baggio Isn't interviewed. In the collection of comments no remarks about this. Stoichkov Cruijff, Suarez, Keegan, Platini, Van Basten, Baggio. Weah Question is not asked and no comments about this. Sammer "Naturally I think of the Germans. Beckenbauer, Rummenigge, Müller, then Matthäus, and Zidane, and Ronaldo, and Cruijff, and Platini.. It is undoubtedly unfair to not cite the older ones."
Ronaldo "If I'm not quoting myself now, I'll say in no particular order Platini, Cruijff, Zidane, Baggio and Van Basten." Zidane Platini and Cruijff. Says he has seen the videos. Appreciates Weah, Baggio and Jean Pierre Papin too. Plus his team mates Ronaldo and Figo. Rivaldo "I retain the newer ones, with the exception of Cruijff." It is: Ronaldo, Figo, Owen [sic!] and Zidane. Figo "Not in order": Platini, Ronaldo, Zidane, Rivaldo and Baggio [appreciates Cruijff as a manager]. Owen Says it is a difficult choice for him. Mentions Matthews and Keegan as fellow Englishman, then Di Stefano from his time at Real Madrid. Nedved "I think Platini, Van Basten, Shevchenko, Stoichkov, the last East European winner before me, and Ronaldo... And how to forget Zidane?" Shevchenko "Those who appeal the most to me are Blokhin, Platini, Van Basten, Weah and Cruijff (makes a pause). Ronaldo and Zidane, too!" I hope this is interesting and can be cross-compared @PDG1978
Yes, thanks - some interesting new additions for some players certainly, now that it's about the Ballon d'Or candidates - Law for Platini and Rivera for Gullit for example. I guess there will be a few apparent contradictions that we can see, but it's bound to happen. Zidane will have had more time to be considered. Weah might still have resonated more before the current era appeared to have made his goalscoring rate seem average in hindsight.
Yes, the next sentence of Gullit is him taking the example of playing with Cruijff "at the back end of his career". "He made playing football for the others so much easier, with an extraordinary elegance." I think he has that in mind for Rivera too, then (and his relative versatility for attacking roles?). Yes, and also solid consistencies like Matthews, Law, Eusebio, Charlton, George Best etc. True, it seems Weah was appreciated a great deal by his former playing colleagues/rivals. Probably looking past the 'low' scoring numbers (without any penalties and free kicks, it should be said). Weah was a "one man pressing machine" and yet quite skilled/explosive. Some others who don't have him in their 'first five' mention him too somehow.
Yeah I can understand what Gullit means about Cruyff, and similar things probably could be applied to Rivera. It'd be interesting to know if Gullit was recalling Rivera from childhood or whether he became very familiar with him when he went to AC Milan, or a bit of both.
I think it is a bit of both. He already mentioned Rivera some years before he went to Milan I see. Rivera was close to his prime (at least in terms of 'intelligence' and vision) and playing European finals, semi finals, at the age Gullit was most impressionable (1968-1974). Rivera has also some of his better Italy matches in that time period.
Baggio appears to be rated highly by his direct contemporaries, getting mentions by Stoichkov, Ronaldo, Zidane and Figo.
Sorry for late reply but suddenly thought about it now. Clearly Zidane is of the European players thought highly by multiple generations (starting with Blokhin and Rossi; maybe also the ones who only fill in one name but we don't know) and Van Basten before him (starting with Di Stefano, Kopa, Suarez). I thought this gap could have been bridged if Zidane had moved out a bit earlier or the other one playing longer (say, four more years). With also that Brian Laudrup his comment in mind about foreign/alien players in Italy. Some look at those 1993-1996 years with contempt and disregard but there was still good football in between I'd say, though. 1986 is for Europe also such a year perhaps, a brief gap (though the 'Onze Mondial' readers were more responsive and quicker to recognize it seems than the Ballon d'Or).
As per the original FF poll, Platini also received a few votes from players of previous generations to be fair I had noted before.
I wonder whether this was the day Gordillo convinced Gullit he was the 3rd best player of all-time lol! (To be fair if he'd done that sort of thing regulary - I can't say he didn't do it a few times for sure ofc - he'd start to belong in that company maybe; a Cruyff or Maradona would be happy enough with such an assist I think; off the top of my head I'm feeling it might be the best single piece of play by Gordillo I've seen, although not completely untypical in terms of what he was good at down the left side of the pitch I know):
Do you have this book? Does it contain who voted for who throughout the first 50 years? Ie can you tell which nations voted for Matthews in 1956 for example?
Yes, I have the book. It does not contain full lists for each year. Sometimes it has a reference and mentions. Not for Matthews in 1956 though. It does tell (in the 1957 section) that voters were explicitly encouraged to not vote for him in 1957. But two of sixteen voters still did. It ofc mentions & analyses that his 1956 award was for his full career, as was Yashin in 1963 (Albert in 1967 to an extent as well, andsoforth). Matthews his own comments are from 1989, at the time of the 'Super Ballon d'Or' (as he was deceased in 2005). http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...ho-voted-for-who.1597402/page-7#post-32194836 Matthews didn't respond in the 1999 'player of the century poll', nor the 1995 FFT poll; he gave his (probably most recent?) calls in the 1995 "book of lists". http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...ho-voted-for-who.1597402/page-7#post-32204220 https://books.google.nl/books?id=bY4BD9E7-48C&lpg=PT265&dq=stanley matthews AND cruyff AND maradona AND 1995&hl=nl&pg=PT265#v=onepage&q&f=false
Thanks. I have been thinking about doing a project on the Ballon d'Or so was thinking of getting it. Might well still do but it's a shame it doesn't have the full lists.
Yes, it shows the point totals of course and the 1st place/2nd place etc. votes but not who exactly voted for whom. At the bottom it shows some 'specialties' (so to speak) such as the 1957 instruction to not vote for Matthews. Eusebio would have won in 1966 if his own countryman had shown more bias (he came one point short). He wasn't among the first three for his countryman. That would have been his 2nd consecutive trophy. Same for Platini in 1977, as he came four points short and his own countryman had him not among the first five. The 1969 first place vote for Cruijff came from Glanville (England). I still bought it for the interesting comments, info and pictures. And it was cheap in France.
I'll probably buy it just to satisfy my own curiosity. Despite its many faults I still have huge regard for the Ballon d'Or. I might also see about buying up old copies of France Football on ebay as well but that might well take a long time. The book is about £40 now on amazon.
Yes, it is in many ways flawed. At the very beginning and when it became 'big' (mid 1960s). That is basically why I like to see as many international lists as possible.
With googling it is possible to dig up Gullit said in December 1987 that Gordillo deserved the trophy. At the that same moment he dedicated his Ballon d'Or to Nelson Mandela. Gullit played many times against Gordillo in his career. Three times with the national team (Gullit himself scored two goals, maybe that is why he remembered) and for example in 1987-88 a friendly against Real Madrid, in 1988-89 three times against Real Madrid and so on. http://futbol.as.com/futbol/2013/03/03/internacional/1362274078_887943.html 30/12/1987: http://elpais.com/diario/1987/12/30/deportes/567817206_850215.html http://sevilla.eldesmarque.com/real-betis/51345-gullit-gordillo-y-el-balon-de-oro-del-87 So then he inserted him again in 1999, ha! edit: this is a good Gordillo match by the way
So he did genuinely admire/rate him then. I was thinking he didn't put him in his XI (possibly for FourFourTwo) in which I remember he did put in Manfred Kaltz as right back and remarked on his crosses, but I think I thought he must've thought he was a very good player and it was more of an alternative selection rather than a random choice to mess up the poll!
He didn't get any votes for the 1987 Ballon d'Or in the end (while Gullit obviously won it and indeed Futre and Butragueno were among the popular choices). http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy87.html He did get a 3rd and 4th place vote for 1985 though, and the 1979/80 Spanish Player of the Year award. http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy85.html
He has many caps for that time and given the standards he was also rated quite consistently by Don Balon, that's true. http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/la-liga-rankings-1975-93.1813986/page-8#post-27267128 Here at 6:06 there is another interesting dribble against the Netherlands, as another possible impressionable moment Great scene too at 4:00 I think he admired his ability and influence on a field (at a good day). Maybe also that he was nominally a left back, with a noticeable style. But footballers can sometimes say surprising things, such as Cruyff in 1990, that he didn't rate Maldini (at least: as a wide man for Italy) his importance and doesn't answer to his preferences for a wing-back (had squad number 7).
Yes you're right. http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/ruud-gullit-perfect-xi As I've said previously: Gullit isn't one of the more consistent 'legends' about these things. To be fair though, Gordillo was injured/suspended at crucial stages of tournaments in 1984, 1986 and 1988 (after an aerial duel between him and MvB both had a skull problem shortly before euro88, May 1988). He only played one half in 1986 due to a leg injury. At euro1980 he played three games, but in one he had never grip on Ceulemans. In 1982 (hosts) he had a couple of 5/6 games according to 'France Football'. He did receive international recognition in the UEFA Cup winning years like you say.