FourFourTwo's Greatest Ever Club Sides (2013)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    From the kings of catenaccio to the finest exponents of Total Football - not to mention the best of British - the beautiful game can boast many brilliant teams, and now FourFourTwo can reveal who made the cut and who came out on top ...

    How we made our decision:

    We've been thinking about running down the greatest club sides for some time at FourFourTwo and with the Champions League back upon us and AC Milan's finest team on the cover, what better time? So, each armed with our personal favourites and their best combined XI from the era - not just one season's line-up - we gathered in a darkened room one evening to narrow things down. Deliberations continued long into the night.

    Two things soon became apparent. Firstly, however unfair it may seem to Real Madrid, Barcelona and Manchester United, any club could only appear once. Secondly, this list had to be about more than just cold, bare trophy hauls. Football is also about intangibles: how cool a team is, what effect they have on future generations, their aura.

    We think the following 20 teams have all that and more ...

    KEY

    Success

    What it says on the tin - did they win much?

    Style

    Panache, flair, elegance, fancy haircuts: cool factor

    Entertainers

    Some teams play to win; the best want to perform

    Aura

    The ability to instill fear into opponents without kicking a ball

    Legacy

    Influence on future teams, leaving an indelible imprint

    Individual Brilliance

    One daftly talented star who stood out from the rest

    20. Nottingham Forest 1977-1980

    Honours: 2 European Cups, 1 First Division, 2 League Cups

    Has any team proved so much greater than the sum of its parts than the Forest that won successive European Cups? Brian Clough and Peter Taylor perfected a remorseless, entertaining and mystifying good cop/bad cop act that filled their players with existential dread.

    Remorselessly efficient, Forest shipped 24 goals in 1977-78 and became the fourth (and last) team to win the league the season after winning promotion. They were as self-confident in Europe, inspired by unseating reigning champions Liverpool in the first round in 1979. Taylor's eerie prescience helped - he correctly predicted Forest would beat Dynamo Berlin in the 1980 quarter-final after spotting how apprehensive the German players looked in the car park. Good with the ball, Forest were outstanding without it, as they proved with two 1-0 wins in European Cup finals against Malmo and Hamburg.

    John Robertson, the team's Picasso, impressed the great Azzurri coach Enzo Bearzot: 'When he has the ball, he can create something'. Yet Gary Mills best encapsulated Forest's astonishing overachievement: only 18, he was shifted into midfield after 10 minutes to stifle Hamburg in the 1980 final. Clough feigned tactical ignorance but this tweak saved Forest. Mills performed superbly, possibly because whatever Hamburg threw at him couldn't be as terrifying as the wrath of Clough or Taylor.

    Best XI

    Shilton, Anderson, Lloyd, Burns, Gray, Francis, Bowyer, McGovern, Robertson, Birtles, Woodcock

    19. Budapest Honved 1950-1955

    Honours: 4 Hungarian titles

    Honved 9 MTK 7. Such scorelines - and this 16-goal thriller was a local derby - explain why, in the 1950s, Honved were the team the world wanted to watch. Coached by Gusztav Sebes, the architect of the Mighty Magyars side that beat England 6-3 at Wembley, Honved became a development lab where new tactics were honed, inspiring Brazil's World Cup winners in 1958 and Rinus Michels' Total Football.

    With their movement off the ball, interchanging positions and clever passing, Honved played a kind of football that seemed to come from outer space. They could only do so because Sebes could call on such greats as Ferenc Puskas, a one-footed genius who played every game in his head before it happened; Sandor Kocsis, a supremely gifted striker; visionary deep-lying playmaker Jozsef Bozsik; effervescent winger Zoltan Czibor; and prototypical sweeper-keeper Gyula Grosics. One of the side's lesser-known geniuses, defender-cum-midfielder Gyula Lorant, pioneered the use of zonal marking as a coach in Germany.

    They dominated the Hungarian league, winning five titles in seven years, but one of the hottest episodes in the Cold War destroyed the team. The 1956 Hungarian uprising erupted just as Honved had begun their first European Cup campaign. In normal circumstances, Puskas and his team-mates would have been confident of overturning a 3-2 first leg defeat to Athletic Bilbao, but, with their homeland in turmoil, the players opted to play their second leg in Brussels where, as the failed revolution in their home city turned bloody, they drew 3-3.

    After such an inconclusive finale, the team disintegrated. Despite this modest success in Europe, they had made their mark.

    Best XI

    Grosics, Rakocz, Lorant, Banyai, Boszik, Kotasz, Budai II, Kocsis, Tichy, Puskas, Czibor

    18. Borussia M'gladbach 1970-1979

    Honours: 5 Bundesligas, 2 UEFA Cups, 1 German Cup

    The story is a miracle. Not even the success of Brian Clough's Forest was as improbable as the rise of this small, provincial club. Or maybe it wasn't a miracle but destiny? After all, there seems to be no better explanation for the fact that during the short post-war era when local boys still played for their hometown clubs instead of looking for riches elsewhere, no fewer than five men who would win the 1972 European Championship with West Germany were born within a 10-mile radius of a town considerably smaller than Nottingham. Jupp Heynckes, Gunter Netzer, Berti Vogts, Horst-Dieter Hottges and Erwin Kremers - all Monchengladbach lads.

    These players formed the side that put Die Fohlen on the map in the 1960s.

    But the man who it took it a step further, who created not just a good team but a myth that captures the imagination to this day, was Hennes Weisweiler, the coach. The first reason was he played an attacking game so daring, even Netzer pleaded with him to be more defensive. The second was that he eventually had to sell his stars (such as Netzer to Real Madrid) but always found new, cheap talent where no one else bothered to look (such as Allan Simonsen in Denmark).

    For a decade this team held its own against the great Bayern side that won three consecutive European Cups, winning more Bundesliga titles than the Bavarians - a feat midfielder Horst Wohlers described as a 'miracle'.

    Best XI

    Kleff, Sieloff, Vogts, Wittkamp, Klinkhammer, Bonhof, Netzer, Wimmer, Jensen, Heynckes, Simonsen

    Did you know?

    Die Fohlen's extensive club name appears in cult folk rockers Half Man Half Biscuit's seminal The B*****d Son of Dean Friedman

    17. Preston North End 1888-1889

    Honours: 2 First Divisions, 1 FA Cup

    Preston North End were football's first great team. Innovators, agitators, the original Invincibles. They paid players before professionalism even existed, pioneered a previously unseen 'pass and move' game when dribbling was all the rage and were among the first clubs to look beyond their local area for top talent.

    The Lilywhites' achievements in the 1888-89 season alone would have made them contenders for a place among football's greatest ever sides. Unbeaten in the inaugural First Division with a goal difference of +59 across just 22 games, their win ratio would have given them 100 points in the Premier League era, five more than Jose Mourinho's record-breaking 2004-05 Chelsea. They completed the Double without conceding a goal in five FA Cup matches. All this in a season of dwindling crowds amid rumours Jack the Ripper had headed north in search of fresh blood.

    They retained their league title the following season and finished runners-up in the next three, but like all great teams, North End found that they were there to be shot at. There were newspaper stories about drunken womanising. England hotshot John Goodall was one of many Invincibles lured away by bigger wages. Fellow forwards James 'Little Demon' Ross and Fred Dewhurst had their lives cut short by illness. Trailblazing chairman Billy Sudell (who doubled up as manager) was jailed for embezzling funds from his cotton mills to pay his stars. But while success was short-lived, few clubs have created such a lasting legacy.

    Best XI

    Trainer, Holmes, Howarth, Russell, Graham, Robertson, Gordon, Ross, Goodall, Dewhurst, Thompson

    16. Boca Juniors 1998-2003

    Honours: 4 Argentine titles, 3 Copa Libertadores, 2 Intercontinental Cups

    When Carlos Bianchi took over in 1998, Boca Juniors were distinctly average, their back-to-back Copa Libertadores victories of the late '70s a distant memory. Time for an overhaul. Bianchi trimmed a bloated squad and redeployed the classic Boca system: 4-3-1-2, with an eccentric goalkeeper, hard-working defenders and a disciplined midfield, all orchestrated by a mercurial No.10 (Juan Roman Riquelme) and spearheaded by a predatory goalscorer (Martin Palermo). It was simple, direct and intense. And it worked. Like their famous sides of the '60s and '70s, if they scored, they won. 'It was impossible for the other side to equalise when we were winning 1-0,' recalls holding midfielder Mauricio Serna. 'And we knew that if we were ordered at the back, our goal would eventually come.'

    This solidity helped them go undefeated in 40 league matches, breaking Racing Club's record (39) set in the 1960s. They won the Libertadores in 2000, 2001, 2003 and reached another final in 2004, plus four league titles, and two Intercontinental Cups against Real Madrid and AC Milan.

    The club experienced a revolution in all areas, from youth academy to global marketing, and became one of Argentina's most lucrative commercial brands. Bianchi transformed Boca from popular losers to dogged winners. The team of Buenos Aires' working class had become a global enterprise.

    Best XI

    Cordoba, Ibarra, Bermudez, Burdisso, Arruabarrena, Battaglia, Serna, Cagna, Riquelme, Schelotto, Palermo

    Did you know?

    Carlos Bianchi is the most successful coach in Copa Libertadores history, lifting the trophy four times (once with Velez Sarsfield, thrice with Boca)

    15. Dynamo Kiev 1985-1987

    Honours: 2 Soviet titles, 2 Soviet Cups, 1 Cup Winners' Cup

    On the face of it, Dynamo Kiev have no business being on this list. The Ukrainians never went beyond the last four of the European Cup. Before the fall of the Iron Curtain they never managed to better back-to-back Soviet titles. Igor Belanov and Oleg Blokhin may have won the Ballon d'Or, but lacked box office stardust. Yet, ironically as it turns out, Dynamo's gift to the modern game goes beyond mere statistics.

    Before an age where Prozone and Opta data is scrutinised to the minutest detail, Valeriy Lobanovskiy - a taciturn, aloof tactician who approached football like a game of chess - pioneered logical, scientific analysis to what had been an intrinsically subjective sport. In 20 years as Dynamo coach, across three separate spells beginning in 1973, Lobanovskiy created a hat-trick of great teams.

    'My players know that the morning after a game, the sheet of paper will be pinned up showing all the figures,' he said. 'If a midfield player has fulfilled 60 technical and tactical actions in the course of the match, then he has not pulled his weight. He is obliged to do 100 or more.'

    'We form players following scientific recommendations,' said right-hand man Anatoliy Zelentsov.

    'We don't just give a coach advice; we justify it with numbers.'

    It was Lobanovskiy's second great side that proved his crowning glory, one that won the 1986 Cup Winners' Cup 3-0 against Atletico Madrid. Blokhin's goal - created by buccaneering full-back play and no-look passes, so well had attacking forays been planned - was the perfect representation of the coach's beloved 'universality'. Few teams have such an enduring legacy.

    Best XI

    Chanov, Bessonov, Kuznetsov, Baltacha, Demyanenko, Yakovenko, Yaremchuk, Zavarov, Rats, Belanov, Blokhin

    14. Juventus 1980-1986

    Honours: 4 Serie As, 1 Coppa Italia, 1 European Cup, 1 Cup Winners' Cup, 1 Intercontinental Cup

    Few Serie A managers are given time to build a team. At Juventus, Giovanni Trapattoni built three. But while few can argue with Il Trap's record during his first stint with the Old Lady, it took five years and an evolution in his management style to transform the Bianconeri from dominant domestic force into continental colossus.

    A brilliant man-manager and disciple of catenaccio, he relied heavily on the players who would form the backbone of Italy's 1982 World Cup-winning side for his early successes. But despite claiming Juve's first European trophy, the UEFA Cup in his first year, 1976-77, the European Cup proved elusive.

    It was the Cup Winners' Cup that kick-started Trapattoni's change of approach, though. So impressed was he with Liam Brady's display in Arsenal's win in the 1979-80 semi-final that he signed the Irish midfielder. Two title-winning seasons later, Brady made way for Michel Platini, having shown what could be possible when you added foreign flair to defensive nous.

    The Frenchman was sensational, winning three straight Ballon d'Ors and inspiring Juve to three more league titles, an Italian Cup and a Cup Winners' Cup. After losing the 1983 European Cup Final, they finally won it in 1985, a fitting culmination of a decade of dominance.

    Best XI

    Zoff, Gentile, Scirea, Brio, Cabrini, Bonini, Tardelli, Brady, Boniek, Platini, Rossi

    13. Independiente 1971-1975

    Honours: 1 Argentine title, 4 Copa Libertadores, 1 Intercontinental Cup

    Independiente were obsessed with the Copa Libertadores. Having won it twice in the '60s they were once again ready to take on South America's finest in the early '70s. What no one could have predicted was that they would go on to win four consecutive Copa Libertadores titles, a feat that has never been achieved before or since.

    With some justification, El Rojo were dubbed The Kings of Cups. This achievement owed much to the emergence of an academy player who would go onto become a legend: Ricardo Bochini, a playmaker so good he became Diego Maradona's idol, with El Diez watching Independiente just to see Bochini in action.

    'We had a team that was manufactured for winning finals, based on an iron defence and a magical attack,' recalls defender Pancho Sa.

    Tactics and managers changed, but results stayed the same: they were unbeatable in the Libertadores. With Bochini and winger Daniel Bertoni pulling the strings, El Rojo monopolised possession, playing a fluid attractive style admired all around South America.

    They also won the Intercontinental Cup in 1973, a year after losing the final to the great Ajax - the only time Johan Cruyff played on Argentine soil, in a game so hard-fought, Ajax refused to play them the next year.

    Best XI

    Santoro, Commisso, Sa, Miguel Angel Lopez, Pavoni, Galvan, Raimondo, Pastoriza, Bertoni, Bochini, Balbuena

    12. Manchester United 1995-2001

    Honours: 5 Premier Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 Champions League, 1 Intercontinental Cup

    The summer of 1995 was a pivotal time in the reign of Alex Ferguson. He'd just relinquished the Premier League title to Blackburn, lost the FA Cup final to Everton and sold Mark Hughes, Paul Ince and Andrei Kanchelskis - three key players in Ferguson's first two championship triumphs. Then the Manchester United manager did a strange thing: he bought nobody to replace them, instead putting his faith in the stars of the club's FA Youth Cup-winning side, who had all made a handful of appearances the previous season. And so began the most dominant, consistent and thrilling period of the Ferguson era, and the most famous instance of a pundit having to eat his words ('You won't win anything with kids,' grunted Alan Hansen on the Match of the Day sofa following United's opening-day defeat in 1995).

    Six years that began with the rebirth of Eric Cantona and ended with the signing of Juan Sebastian Veron hardly suggests a team lacking in stardust, while world-class players such as Peter Schmeichel, Jaap Stam and Dwight Yorke also came and/or went. But in a supremely oiled 4-4-2, the one constant was a midfield of Ryan Giggs, Roy Keane, Paul Scholes and David Beckham that had everything.

    United's reward included five titles in six seasons, two FA Cups and 'that night in Barcelona' to clinch a team-defining Treble.

    Best XI

    Schmeichel, G Neville, Johnsen, Stam, Irwin, Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Cantona, Yorke

    Did you know?

    With minutes left at the end of the 1999 Champions League Final and Bayern Munich leading 1-0, Franz Beckenbauer, UEFA president Lennart Johansson and die-hard Bayern fan Boris Becker got into a lift heading pitchside for the presentation. By the time they got there, United had won 2-1

    11. Celtic 1965-1974

    Honours: 9 Scottish titles, 6 Scottish Cups, 5 Scottish League Cups, 1 European Cup

    'They were sleek and tanned like film stars,' said Bobby Murdoch of the Inter line-up, as Celtic prepared for the biggest moment in their history, the 1967 European Cup final in Lisbon. 'On our side there were quite a few with no teeth.' But a lack of pretention and sense of togetherness characterised this ragged band of brothers - hardly surprising, seeing as they were all born within 20 miles of Glasgow and cost just pounds 42,000 to assemble - as they went on to become the first British side to seize Europe's ultimate gong.

    The Lisbon Lions should be admired for much more than just their pioneering victory on the continent. Scottish football was far more competitive back then: when Jock Stein took the helm at Parkhead in '65, Celtic had not won the league for 12 seasons (Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee, Kilmarnock and Rangers shared the glory) and had only managed the feat twice since 1938. Stein's subsequent nine league titles in a row stand as one of British sport's greatest achievements.

    'Together they are a real team,' said the boss who encouraged his boys to play relentlessly attacking football. 'Play as if there are no more tomorrows, and make neutrals glad.' So familiar, so confident, they worked like clockwork from keeper to forward. Jimmy Johnstone, Bobby Lennox and Bertie Auld shone, but it was the unit that was the star. As Bill Shankly told Stein after Lisbon: 'John, you're immortal now.' His team is, too.

    Best XI

    Simpson, McGrain, McNeill, Clark, Gemell, Murdoch, Auld, Johnstone, McBride, Chalmers, Wallace
     
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  2. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    10. Torino 1945-1949

    Honours: 4 Serie As

    Believe the hype: the Grande Torino side that perished in the Superga air disaster on May 4, 1949 really were that good.

    In 1947-48, they won Serie A by 16 points (in the days of two for a win), scoring 125 goals, winning 19 out of 20 home games and finishing the season with a goal difference of +92. (That also happened to be the fourth of five successive league titles for the club.) In 1946-47, they were so blatantly the best team in Italy that Azzurri coach Vittorio Pozzo picked all 10 of his outfield players from Torino for a game against Hungary.

    This ridiculously gifted Torino side was built by local businessman - and frustrated journeyman defender - Ferruccio Novo, who reorganised the club and created a sophisticated scouting network. Novo's flowing, innovative side pioneered a flexible tactical approach that foresaw the cavalier 4-2-4 with which, 10 years later, Brazil won the World Cup.

    The fulcrum of the team was captain Valentino Mazzola, father of Inter legend Sandro, who epitomised the rare blend of skill and power that made this team so sublime. Mazzola combined brilliantly with Ezio Loik to score and create chances for themselves, each other and acrobatic centre-forward Guglielmo Gabetto. Behind them Giuseppe Grezar orchestrated the play, confident that the unflappable centre-half Mario Rigamonti, combative Aldo Ballarin, elegant left-back Virgilio Maroso and agile, energetic Valerio Bacigalupo would nullify most threats. Calcio is still haunted by how great this team might have been.

    Best XI

    Bacigalupo, Ballarin, Maroso, Grezar, Rigamonti, Castigliano, Menti II, Loik, Gabetto, V Mazzola, Ferraris

    9. Bayern Munich 1967-1976

    Honours: 4 Bundesligas, 3 German Cups, 3 European Cups, 1 Cup Winners' Cup

    If a single team can create an entire club, then this side laid the foundation for the dynasty we know as Bayern Munich. When Franz Beckenbauer and Sepp Maier, both in their early teens, joined the club's youth set-up in 1959 Bayern weren't even the top club in their own city - 1860 Munich were more popular and successful. Consequently, Bayern weren't admitted to the Bundesliga when Germany finally created a nationwide league in 1963. It would turn out to be a blessing in disguise, because a baby-faced team was allowed to gel, grow and learn outside the spotlight. In 1964, a young, chubby striker by the name of Gerd Muller signed for Bayern, because he thought he'd never break into 1860's star-studded side. At the end of his first season, Bayern were promoted and - pop! - not just the side, but the whole club exploded like a champagne cork.

    In 1967, Bayern won their first European trophy (the Cup Winners' Cup against Rangers) and the core of that team - soon bolstered by a few choice youngsters such as Paul Breitner and Uli Hoeness - would stay together for the next 10 years and turn lifting silverware into an art form. Amazingly, the side didn't really dominate the Bundesliga (see no.18), but they always found a way to win in Europe and also formed the backbone of the all-conquering West German national team.

    Then, in 1977, Beckenbauer joined New York Cosmos - and the story of Bayern's greatest team was over. There would be other exceptional teams, of course, including the current crop. But this side started it all.

    Best XI

    Maier, Hansen, Beckenbauer, Schwarzenbeck, Breitner, Roth, Hoeness, Kapellmann, Ohlhauser, Muller, Rummenigge

    8. Benfica 1959-1968

    Honours: 7 Primeira Ligas, 3 Portuguese Cups, 2 European Cups

    Restless Hungarian genius Bela Guttmann had a simple credo for building teams: 'Give the public their money's worth.'

    That philosophy came to glorious fruition in the Benfica side he created. Playing an attacking 4-2-4 or the W-M formation, the Eagles reached four European Cup finals in seven years, winning in 1961 and 1962, and dominated the Portuguese league.

    The success of a team that became known as o glorioso Benfica is often reductively attributed to one transformational genius, Eusebio. Yet the side's most influential player, also born in Mozambique, was Mario Coluna. Known as o monstrous sagado (sacred beast), Coluna was the complete midfielder, a master strategist with an explosive left foot. Great as Eusebio was, he couldn't turn around the 1963 final against Milan after Coluna was crocked.

    And Eusebio was great. A blistering right foot shot, immaculate technique, intelligent movement and impeccable sportsmanship earned him a slew of nicknames: the Black Panther, the European Pele and, simplest of all, o rei (the king). Yet Coluna and Eusebio could not have flourished without the quality of goalkeeper Costa Pereira, winger Joaquim Santana and centre-forward Jose Aguas.

    Guttmann's Benfica triumphed in two of the most enthralling European Cup finals. As nailbiting as their unexpected triumph over Barcelona in 1961 was, the '62 final was the Eagles' meisterwork. Defeating Real Madrid 5-3, in a game where both sides seemed to deem it a matter of honour not to score from inside the area, Benfica give the world their money's worth. Such football soon gave way to the pragmatism of catenaccio but the legend of this side endures.

    Best XI

    Costa Pereira, Martins, Germano, Cruz, Cavemm, Coluna, Augusto, Santana, Eusebio, Aguas, Simoes

    7. Santos 1955-1968

    Honours: 6 league titles, 2 Copa Libertadores, 2 Intercontinental Cups

    Not many teams can boast nine World Cup winners. And only one had the 'The Athlete of the Century' upfront during his peak.

    This is why Pele's Santos feared no side, dominating the Brazilian league when it was at its strongest. Their motto was simply unrefined: 'If the opposition scores once, we will score three.' It didn't matter if the opposition were a local side or the almighty Benfica at the Estadio da Luz. This swashbuckling arrogance was most evident in 1962 and 1963, when they won the Intercontinental Cup twice (beating Benfica and Milan), as well as the legendary match-ups against Garrincha's Botafogo, encounters that were so fluid they could have been a work of art.

    Judging Santos solely on their trophy haul is misleading as they refused to take part in the Copa Libertadores after winning it twice in two years in 1962 and 1963. They had other obligations, namely trying to pay Pele's wages. So rather than compete on the continent, they toured the world playing high-profile friendlies. They attempted to play Di Stefano's Real Madrid, but never succeeded - with some suggesting that the Spaniards feared a high-profile defeat. Victories were countless. Teams they thrashed in that era include Inter Milan (4-1), Eintracht Frankfurt (5-2), Sheffield Wednesday (4-2) and Benfica (5-2 and 4-0). All following nominal instruction from manager Lula, whose pre-match team-talk was limited to: 'Go out there and do what you know.' And that they did.

    Best XI

    Gilmar, Carlos Alberto, Mauro, Joel, Dalmo, Zito, Clodoaldo, Mengalvio, Pele, Coutinho, Pepe

    Did you know?

    Inter's Luis Suarez believed if wine was spilt during a meal, he would score in the next game. Before big games, Helenio Herrera made sure he knocked over his own glass, so the superstitious Suarez would dab his finger, tap his forehead and shoe for luck

    6. Inter Milan 1962-1967

    Honours: 3 Serie As, 2 European Cups, 2 Intercontinental Cups

    The team that defined the way we still think about Italian football. Argentine boss Helenio Herrera didn't invent catenaccio (Austrian coach Karl Rappan did years earlier), but his modified version - a 5-3-2 with a libero behind the defence and half-backs launching speedy counter-attacks - was implemented so precisely, his side came to embody it.

    Arriving from Barcelona in 1960, Herrera ushered in a new era of professionalism at Inter as well as new tactics: he was big on nutrition and limited his players' drinking and smoking; he introduced the ritiro, where the players would retreat to a country house from Thursday onwards to prepare for Sunday's fixture; and his pep talks and motivational techniques were legendary - he even plastered slogans like 'Class + Preparation + Intelligence + Athleticism = Championships' across the training ground.

    It certainly did equal championships. Herrara's men won three Serie A titles and back-to-back European Cups in 1964 and 1965; they were unlucky not to win it again in 1966 and made it to the 1967 final, too, losing to Celtic. Money played a part: Inter were rich, but while there were some brilliant performers in the side - Armando Picchi the all-important sweeper; rock solid full-backs Tarcisio Burgnich and Giacinto Facchetti; Luis Suarez a top playmaker; Jair, Mario Corso and Sandro Mazzola a harmonious, devastating midfield - this Grande Inter side were seen as Herrera's baby. His departure to become the world's highest-paid boss at Roma ended the golden era as quickly as his arrival had begun it.

    Best XI

    Sarti, Picchi, Burgnich, Bedin, Guarneri, Fachetti, Jair, Luis Suarez, Corso, Peiro, Mazzola

    5. Liverpool 1975-1984

    Honours: 7 First Divisions, 4 European Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 UEFA Cup, 1 UEFA Super Cup

    The year after taking over from Bill Shankly - the man who remodelled Liverpool from also-rans into heavyweights - Bob Paisley's team finished second in the 1974-75 table. 'I considered it a failure,' said the new gaffer. 'We never celebrate second place here.' He hardly ever had to again: over the next nine seasons, the Reds won the league seven times, along with four European Cups and four League Cups, creating England's first genuine football dynasty.

    That they did it while remaining so well-liked by neutrals is remarkable, and a testament to a thrilling brand of pass and move play. Shankly had called it 'a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes'.

    His successors honed it to perfection. 'Don't complicate things,' said Joe Fagan, who took over from Paisley in 1983. 'Bill hated soccer speak. He wouldn't recognise a Christmas tree formation if it toppled on top of him.'

    So while there was much individual excellence at Anfield - Kenny Dalglish's sublime orchestration, Ian Rush's merciless finishing, the 'Renoir with a razor blade' that was Graeme Souness - it was always fitted within, and slave to the team. And this was a team who could win ugly as well as beautiful, with a devastating 12th man in the Kop.

    Their biggest triumph? Replacing like with like: Fagan for Paisley, Dalglish for Kevin Keegan - and never deviating from a core team philosophy, the 'Liverpool Way', that numerous sides since (the modern Liverpool included) have tried and failed to emulate.

    Best XI

    Clemence, Neal, Hansen, Thompson, Hughes, Souness, McDermott, Keegan, Kennedy, Dalglish, Rush

    4. Barcelona 2008-2011

    Honours: 3 Ligas, 2 Champions Leagues, 2 UEFA Super Cups, 2 Club World Cups, 1 Copa del Rey

    'Fasten your seatbelts,' smiled one Pep Guardiola upon being presented to Barcelona's adoring fans as the club's new coach in August 2008, 'you're going to enjoy this ride.' He wasn't wrong. In 50 years' time, when most of us will be reaching for our slippers, we can die happy that we saw one of the greatest sides ever performing at the apogee of their celestial talent.

    In introducing tiki-taka - originally intended as an insult - to the footballing lexicon, Barca have re-written the beautiful game's playbook in their own, perfectly formed 4-3-3 image.

    Yet the Barcelona Guardiola inherited from Frank Rijkaard was far from a harmonious one. 'Standards had slipped,' recalled midfield scuttler Xavi. 'A kilo here or there didn't matter. A few minutes late here or there didn't matter. Now everything mattered. Pep was right on top of everything like a hawk.'

    Right-back Dani Alves agrees: 'If Pep told me to jump off the third tier of the Nou Camp, I'd think there must be something good down there.'

    Winning an unprecedented sextuple in his first season, Guardiola achieved Nirvana by moving Lionel Messi infield. By the end of 2012-13, he had scored 233 in 218 games. Then there's Andres Iniesta, a football artist with Picasso's paintbrushes for legs.

    The 3-1 victory against Manchester United in the 2011 Champions League final - 'no one has given us a hiding like that,' said Sir Alex Ferguson - confirmed what Real Madrid legend Jorge Valdano calls a 'miracle generation'.

    If Barcelona are Mes que un club (more than a club), then this Barca side are Mes que un equip (more than a team).

    Best XI

    Valdes, Alves, Pique, Puyol, Abidal, Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta, Pedro, Messi, Villa

    3. Real Madrid 1955-1960

    Honours: 5 European Cups, 2 Ligas

    In 1960, as Real Madrid beat Eintracht Frankfurt 7-3, the England team watched the game with the sound turned off in a Budapest hotel. As Jimmy Greaves recalled: 'We watched open-mouthed, each realising but not daring to admit that if this was what football was capable of, us English blokes were years behind.'

    Just Fontaine, the French striker who scored 13 goals at the 1958 World Cup, said once: 'Apart from Brazil, they were the best team I ever saw.' Matt Busby was enthralled by the side, their style and one player in particular: Alfredo Di Stefano of whom he said simply, 'He did everything.'

    The influence of this Real Madrid team extends far beyond the talent of Di Stefano, Ferenc Puskas, Raymond Kopa and Paco Gento; far beyond even the trophies they accumulated - and no other team has won five European Cups in a row, as they did, from 1956 to 1960. This team, Sir Alex Ferguson said once, invented the idea of a modern football club, signing the best players regardless of nationality, becoming synonymous with a particular style, seizing the opportunity provided by the new European Cup and overseas tours to create a global brand.

    The tawdry magnificence of the galactico era - and the annual industrialised melodrama of the summer transfer window - can be traced back to this polyglot side. This Madrid side, as club president Santiago Bernabeu said of Di Stefano, smelled of good football.

    Best XI

    Alonso, Atienza, Marquitos, Lesmes, Santamaria, Munoz, Zarraga, Kopa, Di Stefano, Puskas, Gento

    Did you know?

    Real Madrid tried to sign Pele on three separate occasions, 'but I was too happy at Santos to leave', said the Brazilian. Pele, Di Stefano and Puskas: now that would have been worth seeing

    2. AC Milan 1987-1991

    Honours: 1 Serie A, 2 European Cups, 2 Intercontinental Cups, 1 UEFA Super Cup

    Italy's most successful European team have enjoyed numerous vintages - the six scudetti of the '50s and '60s, the '92 unit that won Serie A without losing, the '94 class who dismantled Barca 4-0 in the European Cup - but the perfect storm of style and success came in a four-year flurry that blew away Italian football's boring reputation.

    In 1986, sex scandal-loving future PM Silvio Berlusconi bought a bankrupt outfit that hadn't won a title in nine years or a European Cup for two decades. His shrewd employment of Parma manager Arrigo Sacchi was the first stroke in the painting of a masterpiece. Sacchi's deft deployment of Berlusconi's fortune was the second.

    The capture of Dutch trio Ruud Gullit, Marco van Basten and Frank Rijkaard was a coup: blended with eight Italians, including a high defensive line epitomised by the flawless Paolo Maldini and Franco Baresi, the results approached alchemy. Playing a Total Football-tinged 4-4-2 full of pressing, they dominated opponents. Sacchi called it 'a team that moves together as if it was a single player'.

    In the 1989 European Cup they humiliated Real Madrid 5-0 in the semis and Steaua Bucharest 4-0 in the final; some argue that the team who retained the trophy in 1990, letting in just three goals, was even more cultured.

    They were Serie A champions only once under Sacchi, but against the Napoli of Maradona, the German-strewn Inter and the Sampdoria of Mancini and Vialli, there was no shame in that. Sacchi's Milan remain the benchmark of European football excellence.

    Best XI

    Galli, Tassotti, Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini, Donadoni, Rijkaard, Ancelotti, Colombo, Van Basten, Gullit

    1. Ajax 1965-1973

    Honours: 6 Eredivisies, 3 European Cups, 4 Dutch Cups, 1 Intercontinental Cup

    When Barry Hulshoff retired from football in 1979, he did some coaching in Greece. One day, the former Ajax defender found himself in a remote mountain village, where an old man stared at his shaggy hair and beard.

    'He took my hands, held them and cried,' recalled Hulshoff. 'He said there was no television in his village, so this old man used to walk for two hours to reach another village to watch Ajax games. And now, in front of him, he saw one of the players. He couldn't understand it and became very emotional.'

    Other teams on this list may have won more, but few could elicit such an outpouring of emotion years later. In disciplinarian coach Rinus Michels, the club's trademark 4-3-3, chaotic position-switching and teamwork was established, with Total Football invented. When he left for Barca in 1971, his Romanian replacement Stefan Kovacs afforded the team yet more attacking freedom.

    Drifting centre-forward Johan Cruyff was the undoubted star, conducting his orchestra with typical pomp and skill. Johan Neeskens provided midfield legs, Arie Haan and Gerrie Muhren the tactical discipline, centre-back Velibor Vasovic the win-at-all-costs Yugoslav steel. Even goalkeeper Heinz Stuy was selected for what he could do with his feet, not his hands.

    Forty years since their pinnacle - a 2-1 win against Juventus to win the 1973 European Cup, their third in a row - Ajax's 4-3-3 remains football's most flexible, popular formation. Their influence on Barcelona and AC Milan, the only sides on our list that could match their artistry, is undeniable. But it's the way they make you feel - the long hair, rock star swagger and beautiful play - that sets them apart.

    Artists, writers, even ballerinas - the great Rudolf Nureyev once said 'Johan Cruyff should have been a dancer' - came to watch Ajax in their pomp. The modest De Meer Stadium became a hive of intellectualism and the counter-culture sweeping 1970s Amsterdam. The venue for John Lennon and Yoko Ono's bed-in? The Amsterdam Hilton.

    Ajax are the poster every schoolboy should have on their bedroom wall - football's James Bond stood next to an Aston Martin in the shadow of the Alps. The greatest club side of all time? Nobody did it better.

    Best XI

    Stuy, Suurbier, Hulshoff, Vasovic, Krol, Haan, Neeskens, Muhren, Swart, Cruyff, Keizer



    'WHAT ABOUT CRUYFF'S BARCELONA DREAM TEAM?'

    We hear you. A lot of teams haven't made our top 20. Meet the sides that just missed out

    Barcelona 1988-94

    Still the possession-hungry model by which the Catalans base their game, Johan Cruyff's Dream Team brought the Total Football revolution to the Nou Camp and beyond. Successful and stylish, but subsequently outshone by Pep Guardiola's cohort.

    Real Madrid 1984-90

    Led by predatory striker Emilio Butragueno, youth-team graduates La Quinta del Buitre (the Vulture Squadron) won five successive Ligas and became the first team to defend the UEFA Cup in 1986.

    River Plate 1941-47

    Nicknamed La Maquina (the Machine), River set the early, trophy-laden bar for outrageous Argentine attacking intent. 'I'd prefer to sit in the stands and watch them play,' one Boca star said.

    Manchester United 1965-68

    From the ashes of the Munich air disaster, Sir Matt Busby constructed another glorious side comprising Best, Charlton and Law. Two leagues, a first English European Cup and the Fifth Beatle: what's not to love?

    Flamengo 1980-83

    Captained by Zico, plus fellow World Cup 82 stars Leandro and Junior, the Mengao were the epitome of Brazilian cool, winning three titles, a Copa Libertadores and the 1981 Intercontinental Cup against Liverpool.

    PSV Eindhoven 1985-89

    Guus Hiddink served notice of his team-building brilliance, mixing Dutch, Belgians and Danes, by lifting the 1988 European Cup, as well as four successive Eredivisie titles. And he discovered the fiery Brazilian, Romario.

    Feyenoord 1968-71

    Under chain-smoking coach Ernst Happel, Holland's first European champions were so good, Ajax had to ditch their 4-2-4 formation for an extra man in midfield to compete. The Dutch 4-3-3 was born.

    Wolves 1953-60

    Without The Daily Express' boast that Stan Cullis' men were 'the champions of the world' after beating Puskas' Honved 3-2 in a 1954 floodlit friendly at Molineux, Frenchman Gabriel Hanot may never have proposed the idea of a European Cup. Led on the pitch by Billy Wright, they won the English league three times.

    Juventus 1994-98

    From the sublime Zinedine Zidane to former factory carpenter Moreno Torricelli, Marcello Lippi's Old Lady were a team of contrasts. They won three Serie As and reached three Champions League finals, beating Ajax in 1996.

    Estudiantes 1967-71

    The Argentines won three successive Copa Libertadores from 1968, but it's the all-consuming gamesmanship - Carlos Bilardo used to stab opponents with pins during games - for which they are remembered.

    Tottenham 1960-61

    Football, according to ex-Spurs midfielder Danny Blanchflower, is 'about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom'. Under Bill Nicholson's passing mantra, the 1961 Double winners did both.

    Arsenal 1930-35

    The inventor of the 'W-M' formation, which dominated English football until something happened in 1966, Herbert Chapman introduced pragmatism to the beautiful game. Won four titles in five years, but few style points.

    Ajax 1992-96

    The second coming of the Dutch giants, this time under the taciturn Louis van Gaal. Van der Sar, the De Boer brothers, Seedorf - they were arguably the last home-grown side to win Europe's biggest prize.

    Marseille 1988-93

    Didier Deschamps, Marcel Desailly, Rudi Voller, Chris Waddle, Jean-Pierre Papin - quite why president Bernard Tapie needed to bribe opponents to secure at least one of four consecutive Ligue 1 titles is anyone's guess. Forever tainted.

    Leeds 1968-74

    Two titles, two UEFA Cups (plus another two European finals) and an FA Cup, but all many recall of Don Revie's side was the play-acting and violence that inspired the 'Dirty Leeds' moniker. They were much more.
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah, I remember seeing that top 20 before on this board (without the texts and explanations).

    Having seen that issue myself though, I remember that they indicated with icons and symbols which 'boxes' a teams 'ticks'. I know it is all very arguably and debatable but imho those symbols were an interesting way to look at it.

    Do you mind to edit the posts and insert the symbols?
     
  4. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I would do but I actually found it on the Newsbank website (which allowed me to copy and paste it). It doesn't render the symbols at all which is a shame so I can't find them.
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    The Nureyev reference (I once checked whether Nureyev really said this, because he's only paraphrased in Winner's book, and this is actually true somehow) is typical in comparison to Syed's recent article on Manchester City and the comparison to ballet.

    Show Spoiler
    Manchester City recognise the value of space under the guidance of grandmaster Pep Guardiola

    In 1973, Herbert Simon, a future Nobel Prize winner, led an experiment to test the memory of chess experts. He showed them the position of 20 or so pieces in a mid-game situation, then disrupted the pieces, before asking them to place the pieces back in the original pattern. The experts did so effortlessly. Chess novices, on the other hand, could place only four or five pieces.

    But in the next stage of the experiment, Simon placed 20 or so pieces not in a real game situation, but randomly. The configuration of the pieces therefore bore no relationship to competitive chess. This time, the novices could still place four or five, just like before. The chess grandmasters, however, were little better. They could place only five or six.

    The experiment revealed that chess mastery is not about superior memory, it is about pattern recognition. Long practice enables grandmasters to encode the structure of competitive chess, so that they can grasp the meaning of a match scenario with a single glance at the board. This is sometimes called “chunking”. This is why top players suffer almost no deterioration in performance under blitz conditions — they generate usable options almost instantly.

    I was thinking of all this in the context of an impressive start to the season by Manchester City. You see, football is also a game of patterns — albeit patterns that encompass time as well as space. This was perhaps the key insight of Johan Cruyff, Pep Guardiola’s influential predecessor as coach of Barcelona. While Brazil prized the individual dribbler, and the English valued heart, Cruyff’s emphasis was how teams combine to exploit patterns.

    In a seminal essay on the Dutch master, Simon Kuper of the Financial Times wrote: “Cruyff best explained this in a 1980s TV programme that compared football to ballet. Initially, he had no desire to debate the gay ballet choreographer Rudi van Dantzig, but he rapidly got into it. While he was lecturing Van Dantzig on how when the first man was passing to the second man, the third man already had to be running to receive the second man’s pass, Van Dantzig interrupted, ‘So it’s choreography?’ ‘Exactly!’ said Cruyff. Cruyffian football is a dance for space.

    The key word, here, is “choreography”. Given that a given player has possession for only about 1-2 per cent of overall match time, dominance can emerge only through patterns that encompass the entire team. A pass, for example, has meaning only if a team-mate is running into the intended space, with new vistas of possibility emerging as other players dart into fresh positions. Barcelona’s game under Cruyff — the ball shifting around constantly moving players — may have looked spontaneous, but it was built upon an appreciation of shared patterns.

    Improvisational jazz provides another useful metaphor. This can sound magically spontaneous, bands creating music on the fly, but it adheres to rigorous musical conventions and norms. As Frank J Barrett, an expert in complex systems, put it: “Although there are many players known for their soloing, in the final analysis, jazz is an ongoing social accomplishment. What characterises successful improvisation, perhaps more than any other factor, is the ongoing give and take between members. Players are in continual dialogue and exchange with one another”.

    It is no surprise, then, that Guardiola’s training methodology focuses so relentlessly on encouraging his players to encode, and further elaborate, these patterns and conventions. At Barcelona, the coach had the benefit of a group of players who had passed through La Masia, the academy, and so had been absorbing Cruyff’s ideas. They were so attuned to each other that they didn’t need to think before passing. You might call it collective chunking.

    When Guardiola arrived at Bayern Munich, however, he needed to get his players to focus on this area of the game. In pre-season, with the players expecting sprints and endurance runs, Guardiola’s first session involved four rounds of positioning games lasting four minutes each, the ball circulating with the first touch. “It is vital to offer immediate support, at the new base of a triangle of players, so that the ball movement can continue without slowing down and the team can both dominate and control the play,” Martí Perarnau, a Spanish journalist granted access to Guardiola’s first season, wrote in his book, Pep Confidential.

    In a superb interview with Henry Winter in The Times, Kevin De Bruyne revealed that Guardiola has adopted a similar approach at Manchester City. “He’s intense and detailed,” he said. “Everybody knows what they have to do with the ball and without the ball. I never had a manager so detailed in every moment and aspect of the game.”

    Even endurance work is conducted with a ball, enabling players to constantly build mutual anticipation. As Guardiola explained to Perarnau: “In the past, resistance work would have involved sprints of 80-100 metres, or longer-distance running. What we do is to get them using the ball and we also introduce concepts like inter-cooperation”.

    When preparing to meet opponents, Guardiola’s focus is also on space and time. He conceived of Lionel Messi’s false No 9 position in May 2009 while scrutinising Real Madrid, Barcelona’s upcoming opponents, on video. He noted the tendency of Fabio Cannavaro and Christoph Metzelder, the central defenders, to stay near the goal, leaving a gap to the midfielders. It was late, but Guardiola picked up the phone. “Leo, it’s Pep. I’ve just seen something important. Really important. Why don’t you come over now? Now, please.” Barcelona would go on to defeat Real 6-2 and would utilise this pattern again and again.

    One should not, perhaps, over-interpret the comparison between chess and football, even in the case of a manager such as Guardiola, who dined with Garry Kasparov in 2012 and has confessed a growing fascination with the game. Unlike chess pieces, which move in pre-determined ways, footballers can exercise initiative and creativity. The key insight, however, is that creativity in football is recursive. A sublime diagonal pass of the kind De Bruyne executed against Stoke in October is only as effective as the run of Leroy Sané to convert it. Creativity is not undermined when players conform to shared patterns; it
    is enhanced.

    Some might argue against the notion of Guardiola as a visionary [in a reply someone linked to this video, PvH]. He inherited superlative teams at Barcelona and Bayern, and has spent freely at the Etihad. But it is not the results that have impressed so much as the aesthetics. At Huddersfield yesterday, City came through against dogged opponents. They may not have been at their incisive best, but one could glimpse intricate patterns amid the competitive tumult. What can be said with certainty is that Cruyff, who passed away last year, would have approved.



    Either way, I found the symbols now so will post them next.
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #6 PuckVanHeel, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
    Symbols per team:

    KEY

    Success: What it says on the tin - did they win much?

    Style: Panache, flair, elegance, fancy haircuts: cool factor

    Entertainers: Some teams play to win; the best want to perform

    Aura: The ability to instill fear into opponents without kicking a ball

    Legacy: Influence on future teams, leaving an indelible imprint

    Individual Brilliance: One daftly talented star who stood out from the rest

    (I type it down as the symbols appear from left to right)

    Brief excerpts:
    [​IMG][​IMG]


    20. Nottingham Forest 1977-1980

    Success

    19. Budapest Honved 1950-1955

    Style - Entertainers - Legacy

    18. Borussia M'gladbach 1970-1979

    Success - Style - Individual Brilliance

    17. Preston North End 1888-1889

    Entertainers - Legacy

    16. Boca Juniors 1998-2003

    Success - Style

    15. Dynamo Kiev 1985-1987

    Style - Legacy - Entertainers

    14. Juventus 1980-1986

    Success - Aura - Individual Brilliance

    13. Independiente 1971-1975

    Success - Entertainers

    12. Manchester United 1995-2001

    Success - Aura

    11. Celtic 1965-1974

    Success - Aura - Entertainers

    10. Torino 1945-1949

    Style - Entertainers - Legacy

    9. Bayern Munich 1967-1976

    Success - Legacy - Aura

    8. Benfica 1959-1968

    Success - Legacy - Individual Brilliance

    7. Santos 1955-1968

    Style - Aura - Entertainers - Individual Brilliance

    6. Inter Milan 1962-1967

    Success - Style - Aura - Legacy

    5. Liverpool 1975-1984

    Success - Aura - Entertainers

    4. Barcelona 2008-2011

    Success - Style - Aura - Entertainers - Individual Brilliance

    3. Real Madrid 1955-1960

    Success - Aura - Entertainers - Legacy - Individual Brilliance

    2. AC Milan 1987-1991

    Success - Style - Entertainers - Legacy - Individual Brilliance

    1. Ajax 1965-1973

    Success - Style - Aura - Entertainers - Legacy - Individual Brilliance
     
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  7. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Perhaps, having grown up with Ajax, I should be the one to call BS on the 1965-1973 time period.
    Ajax' Uefa ranking in 65 was 139 and dropped to 155 in 66.
    From 69 on the team was well juiced up in accordance with the rest.
    The only reason I can think of for such an odd mention is the writers being on the Cruijff bandwagon.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    While I agree they get the time periods of this and other teams incorrect, it has to be said FourFourTwo starts with the 1965-66 season and thus not 1964-65 (which you in effect cite). Furthermore, the UEFA ranking dropped because of not playing European football, thus ranking points slowly dropping away (for the last time an entry in 1961-62 in the Cup Winners Cup, first round exit vs Ujpest). They qualified again in 1966 for the 1966-67 EC season.
     
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  9. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Thanks. Yes, it was a good article from Syed. I read it on Tuesday. Often I don't agree with him but he has a different viewpoint on a lot of issues so is useful I think.
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #10 PuckVanHeel, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
    If we go by the then prominent France Football team ranking (the continental 'expert' vote) of that time then 1967 to 1973 is the period (ranking by calendar year though, not seasonal). They were voted top 5 for the first time in 1967 and on top in 1969, 1971, 1972 and 1973. But I think for British writers the temptation is there to also include the Liverpool games (to a much lesser extent Real Madrid and profiled friendlies as Everton) in the mix and thus extend the period to 1966-67 or 1965-66.

    Much weirder is the period for the other Ajax team listed (among the honorable mentions - only one team per club in the top 20 as they say). I don't see how that can be 1992-1996 by any measurement. Either it is 1993 to 1996, or something around 1985 to 1996 when the club played five European finals in this period (+ some other notable/notorious campaigns). This period realistically encompasses three different batches of players, because even pre-Bosman the club Ajax was fundamentally a small team. It were three entirely different teams.

    But there are some more arguable and semi-arguable instances in that list.
     
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  11. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Some clubs that were not mentioned:

    1880s: Corinthians
    1890s: Aston Villa, Sunderland
    1920s: MTK, Nuremberg, Rangers, Sparta Prague
    1930s: FK Austria, Schalke 04, Slavia Prague
    1940s: Nacional, Sao Paulo
    1950s: Millonarios, Red Star Belgrade
    1960s: Anderlecht, Penarol
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    FourFourTwo had later this on the commentary they received in return:


    FFT's Greatest Club Sides Ever: Why Arsenal’s Invincibles didn’t make the cut

    We counted down the top 20 club sides ever in FFT’s October issue, but the exclusion of Arsene Wenger caused much controversy. One of the men responsible, Andrew Murray, explains why 'The Invincibles' didn't make it...

    The deliberations, ramifications and arguments went on long into the night one mid-August evening in the FourFourTwo office. But choosing the 20 Greatest Club Sides Ever for the October issue of the magazine was never going to be easy. Having consulted world football’s journalistic glitterati, four FFT staffers sat down to condense a long list of 38 truly spectacular teams into the top 20.

    It was agony. Some teams – the Ajax of Johan Cruyff, Pep Guardiola’s Barcelona and Real Madrid of the late 1950s – picked themselves, but compelling cases existed for all. Two things swiftly became clear. However unfair it was to Madrid, Barça or Manchester United, any club could only appear once in the top 20. Secondly, the list had to be about more than mere trophies, it had to be about intangibles: how cool a team is, their legacy, their aura.

    Winners Ajax had all of that, and more. Total Football changed the world. They had rock star swagger (cool). Their 4-3-3 formation is still the most prevalent (legacy). They won three successive European Cups (aura).

    Any list like this is going to leave some great teams out. FFT’s Brazilian readers were particularly unhappy that Santos only ranked seventh, and that neither Flamengo of the early 1980s (Zico, Leandro et al) nor 1991-94 Sao Paulo with Rai and young Cafu made even the ‘teams that just missed out’ sidebar.

    The biggest complaint, by far, has been the exclusion of Arsenal’s Invincibles of 2003-04. Some suggested the era began in 1998, others 2002 and lasted until the 2006 Champions League final defeat to Barcelona. Ultimately, the case for the Gunners’ inclusion boils down to that unbeaten season and their record 49 games without losing a league game.

    Nobody can question that statistic. It’s truly incredible. Yet in Europe, Arsenal failed. Bar the 2006 final – where they fought manfully with 10 men against Barça – they didn’t go beyond the last eight of the Champions League. Yes, they won the FA Cup in 2002, 2003 and 2005, but there was no unbeaten double in 2004, where Arsenal lost 1-0 in the semi-final to Manchester United. No disgrace in that, clearly, but a defeat is a defeat.

    In the 1888-89 season, Preston North End were the first team to complete the league and cup double without losing. Pre-European football, they went an entire campaign unbeaten, regardless of competition. No-one has done it since. A bygone era, perhaps, but firsts matter. It’s why everyone knows who Neil Armstrong, George Washington and Dolly the Sheep are.

    Arsenal did appear as one of the teams that just missed out. But we felt that the legacy of Herbert Chapman’s great side of the early 1930s had a greater legacy on the game. His then revolutionary W-M formation, essentially a 3-2-5, became the dominant system around the world for nearly three decades. Its influence on the English game only ended when Sir Alf Ramsey introduced something more akin to a 4-4-2 to win the 1966 World Cup.

    Undeniably thrilling to watch – anyone who wouldn’t describe Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp or Robert Pires as cool is clearly in need of serious psychological adjustment – Arsene Wenger’s Gunners faded after 2006, the last hurrah. Of course, this happens to all great teams, players get old or want to leave, but there was no revolutionary tactical system. Unheard of in England when he first arrived, Wenger’s knowledge of nutrition and sports science was well-known elsewhere in Europe.

    Ultimately, football is all about opinions, that’s why we love it so much. For what it’s worth, I think that particular Arsenal team were one of the best I’ve seen in my lifetime, but we all felt other sides had better claims to be on the list. List features always spark lively debate, and this one has been no different.



    Then there's also this internet article of recent date:
    http://www.fourfourtwoarabia.com/7-brilliant-teams-pulled-apart-fulfil-potential/
     
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  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This writing, I think, does not an unqualified and unmitigated favor to him.

    While commonly for other players (from the FIFA inner circle) cliche terms as "golden boy" and "fenix from the ashes" are used, this writing pays lips service to the idea he was a product of his time and environment rather than an agent itself (very incorrectly in my opinion). It is a known bias of 'great man theory' writing, where a lot of agency is attributed to persons of so called Big Powers. Sport journalists don't do this intentionally per se, but they tend to do this when they have to write about - and make their public relate to - Michael Laudrup (recently in The Guardian), Cristiano Ronaldo or other sport stars like Roger Federer. One of the implicit currents behind this is that 'they' (the journalists) don't need to evoke a feeling when they write about an American sports star, while they need to in other instances like the so called 'prince of Denmark'.

    At any rate, the term "transformational genius" [sic] and the like is not used for him, but he's reduced to being a product of his age and environment (in contrast to what for ex. Marcotti has done, emphatically arguing for the exact opposite). The term is "undoubted star" is as far as they go.

    Furthermore, the talking up of his team mates (or manager) is not necessarily favorable to him, and it is comparatively (next to other 'greats') even unfair. Neeskens or Keizer weren't more delved under accolades than, say, Careca.
    It's not by definition how many people saw it at the time itself (Charles Buchan Football Monthly, Jimmy Hill, Glanville etc.).

    The writer Schulze-Marmeling has a number of strong points and evidence against arguing for Michels his influence (when it comes down to tactics, 'invention' - the things that gave the team their defining competitive edge and advantage; his 'people management' is a separate subject).

    There are other elements in the FFT text that give him an overarching presence, but it is not necessarily an unmitigated and unqualified eulogy.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    [​IMG]


    The truly excellent magazine Calcio 2000 - an Italian magazine obviously - asked January 2000 the same question to journalists and a further 73 'jury members' (included players, managers). This included Capello, Liedholm, Ancelotti and also Trapattoni. Players ranged from Altafini to Zoff.

    "Real Madrid 1956-1960" finished on top of 'il club europeo' with 34% of the votes, "L'Ajax di Cruijff" was 2nd with 23% of the votes. "Il Milan di Sacchi" was 3rd with 14%.

    Then surprisingly came 'Il Manchester Utd di Ferguson' with 8% of the votes. 'La Juventus di Lippi' rounded off the top five with 4%. 'Il Barcellona di Cruijff e Romario' fell just outside (on joint 6th) with 3%.

    Two more things are here however notable:
    • When the question is limited to 'la squadra italiana' then Sacchi's Milan is again number one (with 39%). But Lippi's Juventus drops to 7th, with once again 4% of the votes. It is thus the same percentage, they had loyal voters.
    • Trapattoni, in european trophies and final places the most successful of the catenaccio managers, made a plea for the significance of Ajax and Barcelona. Among the managers Ajax is a popular team (even pipping Real Madrid? - this isn't shown).

    For Italian club teams the order is: Sacchi's Milan (39%), Trappattoni's Juventus (15%), Il Grande Torino (14%), L'Inter di Herrera (14%), Sacchi's and Cappelo's Milan (6%), Cappelo's Milan (4%) and then Lippi's Juventus at 4% too.


    It is beyond the scope of this thread (and some will not believe this, but if necessary I make a scan, just give a shout) but for national teams 'L'Argentina dell'86' ended on the 5th place. Brazil 1970 predictably #1 with 39%, then Italy 1982 with 24%, Brazil 1958 3rd with 14%. The best ranked national team to not win the World Cup is 'Il Brasile dell'82' on 4th, then 'L'Olanda di Cruijff' on 6th.
     
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  15. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Herecy! Nevio Scala's Parma =#1
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #16 PuckVanHeel, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018

    The remaining Italian teams published are the Juventus of the 1930s, 'Il Milan del Gre-No-Li' and 'La Sampdoria di Vialli e Mancini' (Sampdoria's chairman voted on his own team, LOL).


    Nevio Scala had as manager a hand in three European finals (all for Parma). Ferguson, Trapattoni, Cruijff and Lattek lead the pack with 6 finals - all of them with different clubs and all minus Trapattoni in different countries too.

    That Sampdoria team with Vialli and Mancini themselves played three finals (won one), won a scudetto, and three Coppa Italias (Vujadin Boskov was manager in all but one of the achievements).

    I can imagine that Sampdoria is a viable alternative pick for Parma, if a voter likes to pick a relative 'provincial' team, with the scudetto being important and the cherry on the pie.
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Apart from Mancini and Vialli's Sampdoria (scudetto, three domestic cups, three European finals) there are however a few more 'provincial' teams with domestic success.


    In the international sphere I think Scala's Parma and Sampdoria clearly stand out, when seeing the international results and thinking about the size of the team (primarily the attendances as an obvious indicator). Fiorentina etc. not quite there in results, and/or they are a bit bigger in nature. Higher attendances.

    Domestically one might think of title winning Verona and then in particular Cagliari. Cagliari was an even markedly smaller team than Sampdoria, and with Luigi Riva as main driving force they achieved a 2nd place, a championships and a 4th place within a spell of four years. They also reached the Coppa Italia final once.

    On the international level they got knocked out twice in the 2nd round (against Carl Zeiss Jena and Atletico Madrid) and once in the 1st round (vs Olympiakos). This is also true for Verona (two 2nd round exits, a quarter final exit).

    So I can understand Sampdoria attract some votes as a 'provincial' team, they tick as only provincial Italian team all the boxes. Sustained domestic success, pretty consistent international results, and still fairly small (though not as small as Cagliari). They also did it with Italian players in a prominent role, more so than Verona for example - and that factor might appeal to the predominantly Italian voters when choosing a 'squadra italiana'.


    For national team clearly 'L'Olanda di Cruijff' (no time period given, unlike the other choices) is a 'provincial' pick with appeal (even though it had not a 'provincial' aura - that is one of the big enigmas). It is sandwiched in between various Brazilian, Italian, German and French teams (and 'La Grande Ungheria'). During his active life in football only (West-)Germany achieved more semi finals and quarter finals. The Netherlands had as many semi finals as France, England and Spain combined (despite, generally, not being seeded at the tournaments). That is the objective reality, and although it is a team game, much of the credit goes deservedly to him.
     
  18. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    With only 11 goals against, I wonder how much Albertosi contributed.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Good that you mention this;

    As noted before, there is less consensus on the greatest managers, as opposed to the great club and country teams, and the great footballers where most appear within a certain range - i.e. Platini between 5 and 15 is still a relatively narrow range.

    Sacchi his place is often dependent on Capello his place and vice versa.

    Sacchi receives naturally credit for his pioneering work (some say he built on what 'mister zone' Liedholm was doing but I think there were crucial conceptual differences, conceptual differences on the fundamental and basic level). Liedholm himself commented that Sacchi's Milan had never happened without the total footballer schooled Gullit (i.e. Liedholm also liked to have these players...). Capello was briefly caretaker manager in 1987 - he led Milan to an UEFA Cup berth, but with only winning 30% of the games.

    At the international level for club and country Sacchi won more. He won two European Cups, while Capello won one. He won two Intercontinental Cups while Capello won zero. Finally (to round it off) he won two UEFA Supercups, while Capello won one in his career. Capello was more 'pragmatic' (and higher spending!) and won less at the international level.

    With the national team Sacchi was not an unqualified success story, but he achieved with his 1994 final more than Capello did with either England or Russia (even compared to their 'default' level in tournaments). Sacchi had mixed results against other top tier national teams (2 wins, 4 losses in 7 games against top tier teams), but recorded with 64% the highest win percentage since Vittorio Pozzo (who had 69%). It is better than what Capello can show.

    However, it can be raised that Capello was more successful without Sacchi's daily work than vice versa. Sacchi won in effect nothing without Capello his assistance (in a nearby capacity, as assistant or technical manager overseeing the whole Milan organization incl. their basketball team and other sports). The best he has is that 1994 final. In Spain at Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid he wasn't a success.

    Capello won things without Sacchi's presence and also in different countries, namely Spain and Italy (all in all, seven - or nine including the revoked titles - championships in 16 seasons). His European record at other teams than Milan is however underwhelming. When Capello returned by 1997-98 to Milan he did better than Sacchi his 1996-97 effort, with few/no additional signings, but was still released after one year.


    Something similar - to a large degree comparable narrative, to an extent along similar points - is also true for Michels-Cruijff (as managers). Michels has effectively only one trophy (1983 DFB pokal) and one semi final (1980-81) without Cruijff his daily work and daily presence, in one or another capacity, with his best league result being second and third (1981-82 for FC Koln; 1975-76 for Ajax).

    Cruijff without Michels - put far away, not with daily involvement on the players - achieved more, as a player and as a manager, with his last international semi final (UEFA Cup) taking place in 1995-96. Schulze Marmeling also makes a handful other points, such as that 'Total Football' (and derivatives) was nowhere to be seen by 'Michels-minus-Cruijff' while Cruijff his direct involvements (as coach, as administrator/chief creative officer) always stood into that general tradition and artifacts like having faith in the youth etcetera.

    There are partial overlaps with the Sacchi-Capello pros and cons.
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    As a less likely and less obvious source, a very rare mention of a foreign player or foreign club on the cover of kicker, at January 1967 (click link to see the rarity, even in tournament months it was fairly rare).


    23/01/1967. "The eleven, of which Europe speaks"

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    You have to have bad luck! When the caravelle of the Finnair wanted to start to land in Amsterdam-Schiphol, she was ordered to fly on to Rotterdam. Heavy fog made the arrival impossible. The bus from Rotterdam Airport to Schiphol runs a quarter of an hour. From there, a taxi took me to the city. Past lakes and streams where teenagers skated on the ice and played hockey. The artificial ice track in the sports park on the Middenweg was also busy. Only in the Ajax Stadium, a few hundred meters away, nothing stirred anymore. The training was over!

    My Amsterdam friends comforted me the next morning: "Ajax trains daily!" So I looked for a hotel, booked my return flight planned for the evening and tried to experience something about the Ajax phenomenon. That Dutch people like to sing, we have already heard at national team games. The 24,000 Ajax fans, who regularly attend their team's home games, are particularly happy to sing. In the real Amsterdam flat, it echoes audibly far and wide as the teams come in. "Op'n slof en'n oude voetbalschoen wordt Ajax Kampioen! " or in German: "Ajax becomes a master on a wooden slipper and an old football boot!" They really have it with song and music, the Amsterdammer: Their president Jaap van Praag owns the oldest record business in Holland, his wife Maud is the quizmaster of a popular television show and his Brother Max was a well-known pop singer.

    Yes, and they often have the opportunity to sing joy songs, the Ajax fans: "En juichtoon davert langs de velden" says in the Ajax march: "A cheers sound along the field!" They hardly come out of the cheers, because their team shoots goals, goals, goals ...

    Three players in red and white tricks lead the scoresheet of the Dutch division. The wonder child Cruyff with 22, Nuninga and Swart with 16 hits in front of the Swedes Bild and Kindvall (both Feijenoord Rotterdam). The 19-year-old Johan Cruyff actually does not look as a dangerous goalgetter, but many opponents have already regretted that they didn't imagine the skinny youngster. "It's hard to say whereon his danger is actually based," my friend said. "He's an attacking spearhead of a completely new style!"
    Klaas Nuninga (the Dutch say Nüninga) is the actual [nominal] playmaker of the team, but when the opportunity arises, he joins the shooting festival. And the opportunity arises quite often this season! Sjakie Swart, third in the league, scored the 75th Ajax goal of the season in a 3-1 win over FC Twente. 76:18 goals were scored in 19 games, an average of four goals scored per game. A wonder? Maybe not. Once before Ajax had a man with a smell for the goal.

    In 1945, an 18-year-old half-right ran for the first time in the league-dress the Ajax Stadium on. In this first game against ADO Den Haag, the young Rinus Michels shot five goals. Twenty years later, Rinus Michels took over the training of Ajax. At that time the club and surroundings wasn't in a good standing. In the coming season, Ajax became the superior champion. Before his coaching job Michels had worked as a teacher at a deaf and dumb school. In addition, a parallel: A few weeks ago Klaas Nuninga completed his teacher diploma.

    The next morning I set off in time. A spring wave suddenly broke out over Amsterdam. The snow was thawed. And again the stadium was empty. The weather had made the places unusable. The training was canceled! You have to have bad luck!

    I had already given up my hotel. I was looking for a new one. Would I even get this phantom Ajax in front of the camera again? In the store of the club president, I bought a record with club songs. Yes, there is a whole lot more, as one can hear musically underscored is "Ajax, Ajax de fijnste club van Amsterdam".

    In the afternoon I was able to convince myself that Holland's professionals take a share in the German Bundesliga confession. I went to Sjouk [Sjaak?] Swart's cigar shop and asked the owner to take a picture of him in his shop. He considered for a moment, then did the well-known rubbing movement with his thumb and forefinger and said what he would get for it? That's why this picture is missing here. Maybe it would have been an advertisement for the enterprising Swart, because across the German-Dutch border many football fans come to shop [in 'Holland']. Probably the news that a few misdirected Bundesliga players only let them to be photographed for a fee, has brought some false hope.

    The next morning my bad luck was finally over. Rinus Michels. who had already heard of my wanderings, immediately invited me to a fortifying cup, "Koffie." In a small house next to the stadium lives Miss Lens, who could tell me more about Ajax over the steaming cup than anyone else. Since 33 years is the 71-year-old the mother of the association, she washes the jerseys, stuffs the socks and cooks that wonderful coffee that is preferred to tea in Holland, and when I photographed her, she was completely touched. In all the years not a single newspaper man has made a picture of her.

    And then it went out to training! As everywhere else in the world, there was soon a select circle of experts on the sidelines, who drew my attention to this and that player and knew their way around the German Bundesliga surprisingly well.

    At the farewell one said: "Ajax will teach Europe how to worry!" Maybe he's right, but Liverpool coach Bill Shankly, who had predicted his side's 7-0 win, has already been terrified, and saw the red and white whirlwind Ajax cleaning up the eleven from the home of the Beatles, cleaning from the European Cup like an annoying stain. And already today the whole of Holland is convinced that it will prove its cleaning power also at Dukla Prague.


    In my view it has a touch of a condescending and belittling tone, and there are some other marginal things but it is still revealing given the date of publishing.

    For something similar and comparable (cover + article):

    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/b18AAOxys4RR-6l5/s-l1600.jpg
    http://www.miroirdufootball.com/?p=2040


    @PDG1978 @annoyedbyneedoflogin
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #21 PuckVanHeel, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
    An overview of the France Football 'best club team' survey over multiple years:

    [​IMG]

    Note that unlike what you sometimes hear Nottingham Forest was in 1979 recognized as the best team around (apart from winning the EC, also 2nd in the league and losing the FA Cup narrowly 1-0 against later winners Arsenal), and not just as poor/fluky/wily winners. AZ Alkmaar topped the poll in 1981.

    All the more 'strange', but clearly not unique, the Forest players didn't fare very well in the Ballon d'Or poll.
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting! I'm not too surprised (I say not too surprised because I wouldn't have been surprised that much had they not been) that Forest are placed at the top for 1979, but I'm perhaps a bit more surprised they are still ahead of Liverpool in 1980! Especially if a calendar year award, like I assumed it was when I saw Manchester United were behind Milan and Benfica in 1968 (which then made sense), and because if based on seasons it either duplicates or contradicts actual results in major competitions.

    The top scorers shown there must be based on seasons - I can see already by looking at Eusebio's tally for 1968 - but that's more a factual matter and easier to list by season, plus maybe that is added by the magazine shown and not listed by France Football like that alongside the Team of the Year choices....? It's basically a list of European golden Boot winners for each season anyway of course.
     
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  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    Best team of the PL era dominating domestically and in europe
    The only english team in the PL era to play in 2 consecutive CL finals

    Had the perfect balance of individual brilliance,entertainment,defensive grit and the best counter attacking football ever seen in the english game

    Not sure how united 95-01 is in the same ball park as this team

    The 90s PL simply doesnt compare to the mid to late 2000s in terms of the depth of quality which is demonstrated by the terrible results of english teams in the PL during the latter half of the 90s

    The PL superstars of the 90s did nothing in europe
    Not zola,cantona,juninho,ginola etc
    And as we know bergkamp had a phobia of flights

    The best english teams ever are the liverpool side of bob paisley followed closely behind by SAFs manchester united 2007-2009
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is not entirely correct.

    Zola scored the winning goal in the Cup Winners Cup (won the Super Cup vs Real Madrid too) while Bergkamp led with 4 open play goals and a few assists Arsenal to the UEFA Cup final (lost on penalties, Viera missed). Plus, he certainly has a few great Champions League games and great moments there (graded with a 1/6 by 'kicker' etc.). He had his added value for Arsenal when he played and the wins sheet (compared to not playing) is clear in that respect.

    Juninho never played in Europe for Middlesbrough, Ginola has only 12 matches (for Villa, Tottenham, Newcastle - not the best platforms). If you say Cantona never produced the goods for United in Europe, then you have a point. But he is not necessarily representative.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I first thought it was at the end of the year but while the 'ceremony' (like the golden boot) was sometimes at the end of the year, it was for the season. So Forest in 1980 above Liverpool was for the 1979-80 season. Liverpool had a first round European exit (can happen) and the balance vs Forest was two wins each, one draw.
     

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