The list was made by 442, picture was just published in a newspaper from Barcelona - therefore all the badges and former Barca players having yellow names. I think it's a pretty bad list after the first ten spots or so. - The way defenders are ranked seems really messed up. 12. Cannavaro and 51. Nesta stand out. Pique 31st looks very generous too. - Goalkeeper are underrated in general. I would take Neuer or Kahn over the likes of Vieri/Trezeguet without hesitation. - Giggs, Rooney, Cantona, Bale seem to high. Bale at #34, but Robben #44 and Ribery #87 doesn't make much sense. - Don't think Sammer had enough longevity to deserve a spot in the top 50. Thomas Müller had a great career, but tough to rank him ahead of Eto'o, Ribery, Hazard... - 20. Busquets, 81. Xabi Alonso? I'm sure there is more, just some I've noticed right away. Remember that everything that happened before 1994 seems to be ignored for this list. Opinions?
Very strange list , especially because its not close to 442 top 100 ever published in 2017 regarding most of these players. I believe they put more effort on in 2017 list (or maybe not, it resemble too much with the Voetbal International list published in 2017). Now, as much as I believe Baggio is a bit underrated nowadays, do not think he deserves such a high place for his 94-onwards form. But if we take his entire career in the equation, sure he deserves maybe even a higher place.
The list is not perfect but at least its interesting, I particularly like the fact that Ronaldinho sits in 5th place, I mean, Ronaldinho is not exactly my favorite player, but nobody else has before nor since replicated his consistent form against top defensively capable cup teams like Chelsea 2004 - 2006 or AC Milan 2004 - 2006... So having Ronadinho in the no. 5 spot is just refreshing to see because such lists tend to put far too much importance on longevity over prime, which I think tends to be a massive mistake for a plethora of reasons. At the same time, I dislike the cut off date of 1994... I mean, the premise of a post-1993 list creates serious problems with players like Romario, Roberto Baggio, Gheorghe Hagi, Batistuta, etc. These legendary players probably do not have the body of work post-1993 to make it to the top 20 of this list, maybe not even enough body of work to make it to the top 50 of said list, etc. For example, Batistuta's Argentina career was better or much better pre-1994... His career with Argentina is basically: great Copa America 1991, great Copa America 1993, followed by a string of disappointing performances, followed by Brazil dominating the Copa America with the likes of Ronaldo and Rivaldo (1997 and 1999), a disappointing World Cup 1998, the World Cup 2002 fiasco, etc. And as great as he was for Fiorentina, he was already largely washed up as early as in 2002 or 2003 (give or take some months); I mean, was Batistuta's Fiorentina 1994 - 1999 form great enough in its own right, to reasonably merit Batistuta being in the no. 17 spot, when Andriy Shevchenko is in the no. 52 spot? Furthermore, Francesco Totti is either better or an equal to Batistuta in terms of Serie A form, and Totti arguably also is better in terms of national team career; Totti's Euro 2000 is probably better than anything Batistuta did with Argentina post-1993, and again, Totti played a marginal but not insignificant role at World Cup 2006. In other words, I find it difficult to explain Totti in 32 when Batistuta is in 17. On a different note: the defenders are the area where I think this list truly goes full Ramos, when Ramos is not good... Why is Gerard Pique in 34 when Carles Puyol is in 41? Carles Puyol was the star defender of two very unique records, the Champions League team that conceded the least amount of goals (Barcelona 2005/06 with only 5 goals conceded in 13 games, no other club has before nor since replicated such a defensive record), and also the World Cup team that conceded the least amount of goals (Spain 2010 having conceded only 2 goals after 7 games, no other national side before nor since has replicated such a defensive record). Moreover, Barcelona 2005/06 and Spain 2010 are incredibly different systems, but the rock of the defence was Puyol in both teams, and I mean it's difficult to say that sheer dumb luck just follows Puyol wherever he goes, at different stages of his career, with very different teams, etc. His risky "Tarzan Puyol" style of defending always had a tendency of people underestimating the substance behind the aesthetic madness... Add to the above, Puyol's very impressive form at World Cup 2002 and at Euro 2008, and you are looking at - possibly by far - the most consistent defender of the past 25 years in terms of World Cup plus Euro form across the years. No other defender I know of was as consistently in form at every single cup he played; World Cup 2002 (great), Euro 2004 (good), World Cup 2006 (great), Euro 2008 (great), and World Cup 2010 (great). Puyol was excellent literally in all of them, his performances ranged from either good or great, but never average and never slightly above the average; he never legitimately disappointed. Conversely, Paolo Maldini was in the post-1993 era never particularly consistent across any format, neither at the World Cup nor at the Euro nor at the Champions League. As a matter of fact, Maldini was a demonstrable disappointment at Euro 1996 (in his prime, at 27 years of age) and at World Cup 2002 (as an aged veteran who was supposed to have aged like wine), making him not particularly consistent in the post-1993 era. Furthermore, Maldini was nothing special when AC Milan won the 2002/03 Champions League, and nothing special again when AC Milan won the 2006/07 Champions League. He being ranked as highly as in 9 place appears to be a mixture of nostalgia plus giving him disproportionate credit for his great longevity. This list has Paolo Maldini in 9, Fabio Cannavaro in 12, and Carles Puyol in 41... Because I assume that defensive ability just looks a whole lot better when you have an Italian name, when you play for the Italian national team, when you have the fabled Serie A "most defensive league in the world" demonstrably false mystique inflating the value that is your perception as a defender, and when you have the face of an Italian Giorgio Armani Meets Disney prince/model... because that's about the only discernible logic I can find when attempting to bridge said glaring difference/bias for Italian defenders who were not particularly consistent nor otherworldly in the top tier stages, against the top tier opponents, etc. Why is Rio Ferdinand in 53 when John Terry is in 73? Terry won the Premier League whilst being recognized as Chelsea's most important player (2005 and 2006); Terry was also definitely better versus a certain Barcelona with a certain Lionel Messi... Not to mention Terry's greater longevity in both the Premier League and the Champions League. I mean, those 20 places between Rio and Terry do not appear to be based on anything concrete?? Maybe if John Terry was Italian he might've cracked the top 30 of this list, I'm assuming. Why is Diego Godin in 90 when Fabio Cannavaro is in 12? Diego Godin won the Copa America 2011 directly versus Lio Messi in his physical prime, actually eliminating Argentina in the process; won La Liga directly versus Lio Messi in his physical prime (2014); almost won 2 Champions League titles (2014 and 2016); played the World Cup 2010 Semi Finals with a rather modest Uruguay side; delivered one of the all time great defensive performances in one game vs. Cristiano Ronaldo's Portugal at World Cup 2018; etc. Diego Godin has an almost freak collection of unique achievements, another great defender that, with an Italian name and an Italian face, would've easily cracked the top 30 of this list. What is Lilian Thuram doing in 94 when Fabio Cannavaro is in 12? Thuram won the World Cup and the Euro on the run (1998 and 2000), was actually man of the match in two different World Cup Semi Finals (1998 and 2006), but apparently none of that really counts for much when you aren't an Italian defender with a pretty face... I mean, Thuram was considered to be exactly as great as Cannavaro in their time playing for Parma, but this list for some reason has Cannavaro in 12 and Thuram in 94... Why is Sergio Ramos in 24 when Carles Puyol is in 41?? The defender who looks a lot like the 1990s Hollywood star Val Kilmer, another pretty face way too high on the list, or if not way too high on the list, then certainly way too distant from Puyol's name. Raul Gonzalez (the guy who choked for Spain time after time) is in 21 because he plays for Real Madrid?? Overall, I cannot honestly hate this list, for the simple reason that it includes some interesting names high in the list; interesting names that in most other lists get criminally underrated... At the same time, this list obviously isn't perfect; defenders with pretty faces getting very high rankings because they have pretty faces apparently; Raul not getting discredited at all for his mediocre career with Spain's national team; Ribery getting harshly discredited for his not as bad as believed career with France's national team; etc.
Thanks for this. I was going to get this today to post on here so you've saved me £6. As you say, it's an odd list and one that seems to have just been thrown together at random. Think there's a clear bias towards British based players.
I think that reflects a few things. 1. As you observe, the all time list was basically stolen from VI. 2. Theirs been a change in the editor at FFT and quite a few of the more senior staff have left. 3. They clearly threw this together at random.
Actually, scratch that... I was so focused on the inconsistent placing of the defenders, that I didn't noticed Wayne Rooney sitting in the no. 15 spot, which is crazy. Also Paul Scholes in the no. 22 spot, is another bizarre decision; not only is it a suspect decision in any event, but to also put Scholes above Pirlo makes it even worse when you try to apply the logic that they must've used to rank Scholes that highly. Overall, I don't want to hate that list because it at least dares to make some interesting calls, but it's difficult not to hate it when Wayne Rooney is in 15 and then Zlatan Ibrahimovic is in 55??
Thanks. Maybe I'll buy it for the write-ups and texts but it seems after position 25 or so they have only one very small paragraph for each player. The Rooney text that I saw on PressReader looked decent. If it's only about peak (and then not only for a year but ~5 years) I think some are a bit too low. Ibrahimovic has some noticeable career flaws from an individual perspective (so has Baggio, Rivaldo a few big flaws as a contributor if we're honest; I've tried to explain this before) but there haven't been 54 players with a better peak, better skills and Ibra also had longevity. Whether he should be 30th all-time (like VI did) is a different matter but this is strange. Rooney has a slightly better CL career but should he be that much higher? (Ibra the better national team player I'd say; as demonstrated by his superb goals against Italy and Spain at major tournaments) Ronaldinho has become maybe a bit too glorified I increasingly felt the past few years. The second half of 2003-04 and 2005-06 were of historic level but definitely not 2004-05 (which is often thought; so-so CL campaign too). Though goals and assists are not everything, he was that season outproduced by other #10s as Totti in his prime and even the veterans Zola + Bergkamp. All of them less of a 'reckless' individualist. I don't think some figures as Gascoigne should be close for what he did after 1994. For Dutch players, Sneijder is a somewhat bold call (but yes he was playmaker behind Real Madrid winning a nowadays rare title and the Inter treble season ofc, some moments at three NT tournaments maybe) and I'd have Seedorf above his buddy Davids (also Scholes but that's a different debate). I believe Seedorf - a proper footballer on top - did make his (elite) teams demonstrably better when he played. Time to stop here - It is very hard and subjective but a start would be to weed out the names with little body of work after 1994, though what they've done well enough is visibly subtracting those years (Romario, Weah).
Some of choices (Gascoigne, Le Tissier, Cantona) make sense to me when I think about the new editor James Brown. The mid 90s were his heyday, he was editor of Loaded, a huge part of the 'lads culture' of the time and those three were all iconic within that sort of culture.
Completely agree, re Cantona, if last 25 years that would be only three seasons for him 94-97, one he was suspended for half, one was great and PoY and one was average, it excludes two of his best United seasons 92/93 and 93/94 and a title winning season at Leeds.... I also think Bergkamp is too low given he was key for Arsenal up to mid 00s so has the longevity but aware this does exclude his peak at Ajax in the early 90s. I also think Nedved is too low given his level at Lazio, Juve and two strong Euro showings.. plus longevity.
Ronaldinho at no. 5 is too high for my liking, but I still appreciate the fact that they didn't do what is politically correct with most of these lists, which is to (in my view) recklessly overrate longevity and titles, over consistency and form when in prime. Personally, I would probably place Francesco Totti somewhere in the top 15. Meanwhile, Zlatan Ibrahimovic would probably also be in my top 15, or worst case scenario, in my top 20. Kaka at the no. 14 spot is probably even less deserved than Ronaldinho, in relative terms, perhaps? I mean, was Kaka ever consistent in the Serie A? I've watched lots of his games in the Serie A, and I always get the impression that he always was a fairly inconsistent or just unimpressive league player... For example, I think that both Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Francesco Totti were definitely better league players than Kaka. Steven Gerrard was also more consistently impressive at league level, I'd argue. Moreover, Kaka's memorable CL showings are few and far between, I'd argue; CL Final vs. Liverpool (2005); CL Semi Finals vs. Manchester United (2007); and I honestly cannot remember any other legitimately iconic nor great performances by Kaka at the Champions League. His early decline obviously stole him of having delivered a few more great CL performances, but that still doesn't change the fact that his truly great CL games are few and far between.
I agree with most of your comments and the ones of leadleader but re: DB10, I thought he's possibly low compared to Baggio, Romario, Batistuta and Cantona (same generation; has give or take as many good CL performances as those four combined, post-1994) but the overall placement feels about right. It does exclude the years before his fear of flying as you say (with two UEFA Cups, a Cup Winners Cup and another final). I'd still have him in my top 50 for his ~1998 peak and many creative moments around that time (check the assist vs Mexico at the World Cup!) plus a substantial role in later tough-to-beat Arsenal teams (if he played). Noticed it recently before: Kaka was until recently the Brazilian with the most Champions League goals (30 goals, including 5 penalties). That surprised me. Not saying I disagree with leadleader his point though. Nedved is too low compared to others of his generation, I agree (the full-back Zanetti is one place ahead and one year younger - I think anyone with a 2nd thought would spot that oddity compared to Nedved).
I dont think that rooney above ibrahimovic is outrageous in the way it is being painted In longevity yes ibra has an advantage but not in prime form and versatility(one could argue rooney in his deeper role during 12/13 was a world class playmaker for a title winning team which is something suarez/aguero/falcao/RVP/ibra could never do) http://www.fantasista10.co.uk/is-wayne-rooney-that-rare-breed-of-playmaker/ He was during 2009/10 till his injury being touted as the best number 9 in the world in what was still europes premier league Rooney in his prime had superior movement,work rate,link up play and playmaking Ibrahimovic has a technical advantage(probably the most naturally gifted conventional striker of his era) There is a big question of mentality which he lacked big time Ive said before his PSG exploits cant be completely discredited but there is one thing worth bearing in mind In his whole career in holland,italy,spain and England he never scored 30 goals in a single club season(which has been normalised by strikers who arent even that special-even firmino as a SS did it recently) For paris saint germain(at 29+ years old) Ibra scored 35 twice 40+ once 50+ once In any case even if rooney should have a higher historical rank the difference is surely not that big(as fourfourtwo claimed) Ibrahimovic and rooney should both be in top 25 of last 25 years However i get the feeling as time goes by rooney will become more underappreciated(some sections of united fans are still debating if he is worth of legendary status I really hope they are just bored and not serious because this is bizarre It is interesting that rooney has always been considered highly by his fellow professionals and managers(particularly those from overseas such as messi,ibrahimovic,iniesta etc)
Agree, note my comment re Ajax peak, I could have just said his whole time at Ajax (which was a very high standard) as that was all 25 plus years ago so excluded, I also agree 97/98 was his overall highest peak.
The list has quite a few surprises, there are many players too valued, some of whom had already passed their best years before 1994. On the other hand, I miss some names like Cesc, Drogba, Ozil, Higuain, Kroos, Griezmann, Benzema, Van Persie, Marcelo or De Bruyne.
224 - Since his Real Madrid debut in January 2007, Gonzalo Higuaín has scored 224 goals in the top five European leagues; only Lionel Messi (390), Cristiano Ronaldo (378), Edinson Cavani (239) & Zlatan Ibrahimovic (237) have scored more. Prolific. pic.twitter.com/GAMmsjxdGH— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) January 17, 2019 There is a danger in confusing higuain who pulls on his shirt for the Albeceste and the one who plays in the league(which accounts for at least 60% of your career) There is some discussion on marcelo(not just on Big soccer) I think hes still owed a good-great international tournament I have the feeling that the 2014 NT team minus neymar who got annihilated by germany will never truly be forgiven by brazilians It wasnt just a defeat it was complete capitulation Technically and as a crosser he is better than R.carlos and definitely cafu Defensively i think he is the weakest(full backs today are really wingbacks or we could even say wingers of old without the goal threat,cutting in etc)
I think a case is possible for a few of Ibra's early Juventus and Inter seasons (yes, those two Juve titles got cancelled). He managed to bench club legend Del Piero (not long ago I listened a podcast about ADP), was directly competing with him. Ibra was more mobile and free roaming then, in 2005-06 he had more assists than goals. Then at Inter the static striker role (or beating offside) was played by Crespo/Cruz while he was the roaming guy around. Ibra has a handful league seasons above 10 assists without taking many set pieces. The likes of Ibra, Suarez and RvP (named by you above) actually managed it to top both the goals and assists chart while Rooney did not (Ibra and RvP did this while not playing as the striker). I'm genuinely not convinced (talking about league, not CL). Ibra was #1 in WhoScored of his league in Italy and France as a striker. I can imagine he also did that for Inter in 2008-09 for which no ratings exist. Thus we can say he did it repeatedly, albeit not in the best league. Rooney in 2009-10 had a rating surpassed by Lampard, Van Persie (curtailed to 16 games), Fabregas and Drogba. His number of goals against champions Chelsea in 2009-10 was 0 (I mention it because it's a supposed Ibra weakness). This as illustration for me not being convinced he was the "superior" #9 overall. You might want to check those numbers for Ibra and Firmino again. Yes, obviously I agree it was harder for him (and others) to score in Italy than in France and even Spain. Yes, strong candidate for that. His exit was unfortunate and probably he also suffers from that he was rarely the main protagonist in a successful league or Champions League campaign (very close in 2011-12 of course, but also here surpassed in WS rating by others). Anyway, it was my question whether Rooney should be that much higher. I'm not convinced his league form/peak was that much greater (+ Rooney's peak as #9); CL resume is better yes; national team not really. It can also be said Ibra helped to establish something at PSG but that's at a stretch.
What matters is how he was viewed during his playing career Not in some post retirement revisionist list World soccer(1999) a verifiable source listed him as the 23rd greatest player of the 20th century https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/soccer-worldsoccer100.htm Above gheorghe hagi Above zinedine zidane Above eric cantona Above romario Above rivaldo Etc.... You are for some reason unable to contextualise what he did for fiorentina in the mid 90s a team that had no right to compete for the scudetto As a finisher he is better than messi,cristiano,R9 and probably only matched by van basten,romario and gerd muller who were the best finishers EVER(in recorded football history) Batistuta was feared like really feared by goalkeepers Never have i seen before or since a player with a shot as hard and accurate as his(adriano,CR and R.carlos could match him for power but not accuracy) God knows how many goals he could score in a super team today He and van basten are the only ones im sure had enough talent and discipline to score 50+ goals multiple times today(for madrid barcelona) Romario and R9 had abundant talent but lacked discipline and professionalism to do it more than once(or twice at a push)
The numbers for firmino and ibrahimovic are wrong because i was quoting from memory. the underlying point still stands i think 30 goals in a single club season has been normalised Ibrahimovic did it only once(11/12)pre PSG career Can you really enter your prime as a goalscorer after 29 years old Are there examples from previous generations(of any elite strikers who were considered amongst the best of their era scoring more after their 30th birthday)
(I think for classical players this channel is emerging as the best on youtube there is a treasure trove here for fans of 90s players in particular)
Yes I agree with you there are serious flaws in his individual resume (with that I don't mean something silly as "not winning the CL"). It's a solid point that before he joined PSG he played five seasons as a full-stop striker (for the biggest clubs) and had only twice more than 15 non-penalty goals in the league. This becomes two in seven if we include his Ajax seasons. Strong counter-point is however that since 1960 there are only two Serie A players to score 25 league goals and have 10 (or more) assists in a season. That is Ibrahimovic for Inter and that is his former individual trainer San Marco. So I genuinely doubt #9 Rooney really matched that peak in the league (see also above observation on WS rating). A tally of 25-26 was the maximum until that point (2009) with only Luca Toni (31 in 2006) above that numerical level.
I mean, where to begin? I know the nature of lists is to create discussion/debate, but this one isn't too great. Without breaking down all my disagreements, I'll just stick with this question: Can someone explain to me why David Villa is that high?
Not that I agree with all of it but Rob Brown his take on Rooney and Gerrard (as opposed to Lampard) was very enjoyable http://www.just-football.com/2015/01/steven-gerrard-liverpool-legend-not-premier-league-great/ http://www.thefalsenine.co.uk/2014/02/19/truth-wayne-rooney/ The "lobotomized Matthaus"
The thing with Zlatan is - unlike most other strikers or forwards - that he arguably benefited when he was 27 to 32 years old, as opposed to when he was younger... Simply put: Zlatan was never a speedy nor a particularly agile striker, so him slightly losing a step in terms of speed and/or agility isn't going to have much of an effect on him, on the other hand, he became even stronger at 27+ than he already was, and I think that gain in strength really helped him even if it came at the cost of getting a little older; that is, at the cost of losing a very slight step in terms of speed and/or agility. Just think about this: Cristiano Ronaldo was already 29 years old by February 2014 (February 5, to be exact), and Ronaldo's strongest calendar year in La Liga was arguably 2014; the 2014 half of the 2014/15 La Liga was perhaps Ronaldo's greatest ever goal scoring form at league level, at any stage of his career. (Meanwhile, the 2014 half of the 2013/14 La Liga was perhaps Ronaldo's second best ever goal scoring form at league level, at any stage of his career.) Ronaldo scored 48 goals at the 2014/15 La Liga, and Ronaldo - unlike Zlatan - did actually lose a significant step both in terms of speed and in terms of agility, and he still found the way of producing arguably his greatest goal scoring form at league level. In fact, Ronaldo's goal scoring form at the Champions League appears to get better the older he gets... So why would it surprise you that a 29 Zlatan Ibrahimovic would find his best goal scoring form? You can look at Zlatan Euro 2008 (26 years old) versus Zlatan Euron 2012 (30 years old), and it's difficult to say which version is better; the 2008 version was slightly faster and more agile, but less strong on the ball; meanwhile, the 2012 version was possibly the strongest player on the ball to have ever played the game, he was an immovable object who had equal class on the ball, and whatever step he lost in terms of speed and agility was almost fully compensated for by the gain in strength. Zlatan in this regard is somewhat similar to Zinedine Zidane at 30 years of age; yes Zidane lost some speed and some agility, but he gained strength on the ball, Zidane was already 30 years old at World Cup 2002, and 29 years old for the duration of the 2001/02 campaign where he delivered perhaps his best Champions League form. Furthermore, a 34 year old Zlatan again demonstrated his "class is permanent" longevity with Manchester United 2016/17... And just keep in mind, that Alexis Sanchez in his prime flopped with the same Manchester United 2017/18. In other words: Can you imagine what Zlatan at 30 years of age would've done with a better version of Manchester United? It is also perhaps worth acknowledging that Manchester United 2016/17 finished in a lowly 6th place, having scored only 54 goals, making Zlatan's 17 goals perhaps more difficult to come by, more significant given the context, etc. For reference, Manchester United 2017/18 finished in 2nd place, scored 68 goals, but Alexis Sanchez was a disappointment, and furthermore, not a single one of the Man Utd players scored 17 goals. And lastly, Zlatan was also very very good in La Liga 2009/10, and this was playing in the team of Guardiola, when Guardiola didn't even want Zlatan there; you can clearly see how Zlatan's statistics changed at a crucial stage of the season, that is, just before Guardiola decided that he didn't wanted Zlatan... It's difficult to perform at the highest level when Guardiola doesn't talk to you because he doesn't want you there, which is what happened to Zlatan, and Zlatan hasn't exactly been quiet about that. At any rate, it's difficult to deny the longevity and the class of Zlatan Ibrahimovic at league level.