Forum for discussion of issues by posters who can't start a thread in the Customer Service Forum

Discussion in 'Customer Service' started by Oarboar, Mar 9, 2011.

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  1. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    That's not the way I define it. I'm quoting wikipedia but my understanding of it is that it's: excessive deference to particular sensibilities at the expense of other considerations.
     
  2. ArsenalTexan3

    ArsenalTexan3 Member

    Arsenal
    Sep 24, 2002
    Jakarta
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Each to their own then.
     
  3. Estevo

    Estevo Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 21, 2007
    The I to the E!
    Club:
    Pumas UNAM
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    It's really simple. Somebody posted the link to Mr. Calientito's inflammatory post, I reported it, the Supers dealt with it.

    You can spin this any way you want, Mr. Calientito did the crime, let him do the time.. with dignity. I'm sure he doesn't need the lot of you crying wolf for him. :D
     
  4. Riz

    Riz Member+

    Nov 18, 2004
    R-ville, Murrlin
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    If I were you, I would sure hope all your folks are on their best behavior at all times, 24/7.

    People in glass houses and all.
     
  5. Dignan23

    Dignan23 Member+

    Jul 6, 2001
    Fort Vancouver, WA
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    This is dead right, and is the crux of why I'm participating in this thread.

    Selective enforcement of racism is, itself, a form of racism.
     
    Chesco United repped this.
  6. Dignan23

    Dignan23 Member+

    Jul 6, 2001
    Fort Vancouver, WA
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    So as a moderator, you're on record as being fine with selective enforcement of racism on BigSoccer.

    Lovely.
     
  7. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really don't know how you missed his origional post about Sq uaw Valley? Besides, I would also think you know that place from the Olys.
     
  8. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I no longer participate (or lurk) in the B@W/606/BSMX threads, so I ask without checking, why was the post not originally reported by the poster who linked? I'm sure there was some discussion about the post.
     
  9. Estevo

    Estevo Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 21, 2007
    The I to the E!
    Club:
    Pumas UNAM
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I can assure you that racist remarks are quickly dealt with in my neck of the woods. That is guaranteed..

    I have no clue as to how you reached this conclusion, sweetheart. :rolleyes:

    It was reported by a few posters, including the one that linked it... I have no clue as to why you can't find it.

    I'm beginning to wonder if we are all posting this in the right forum. Maybe we should move this to the forum requests and voting.. and we can open a sub-forum OTG (off the grid) so that Mr. Calientito and company can chat to themselves and keep out the ****************...
     
  10. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Except you really aren't in a position to know whether anyone is being selective or not - and as a recent lurker to your thread - I've even seen you accuse moderators of being racist without any evidence whatsoever.


    No idea what you mean - you'll need to be more specific.
     
  11. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Never mind that that statement is not entirely true, based a quick inspection of the Mexico fora. (Yes, I've learned all sorts of neat things about Anglos.) But you might want to encourage the posters in the Mexico forum to mind their language in other fora.

    Then again, moderators for other fora don't have a supermod on call with a personal grudge and rather uneven standards for enforcement, so they might safe be with the occasional slur.
    Au contraire. As a paying customer, I think that the Customer Service forum is the perfect place to discuss this.
     
  12. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We have evidence in this very thread.
     
  13. Estevo

    Estevo Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 21, 2007
    The I to the E!
    Club:
    Pumas UNAM
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    You might want to encourage your buddy to mind his language in this fora.

    See how I did that? We can go in circles all night.

    If I see a poster in BSMX write something inappropriate, I take action.

    Isn't that simple? You keep trying to make this more complex than it really is.


    You are either very dense, or outright ignoring the point of my previous post.
     
  14. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [/QUOTE]
    The clue is that I did not check, in part because I did not want to venture into any of the threads I mentioned.

    I thought Knave said something about S quaw Valley being a Oly sports location prior to s quaw being censored.
     
  15. LoewenBoy

    LoewenBoy Member+

    Aug 25, 2004
    Giesing, Muenchen
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Sint Maarten
    So if I live in S-quaw Valley my location is going to be censored? That makes perfect sense.:rolleyes:

    Suggestion: Wouldn't it simply be easier to ban people who violate the decorum of polite, civilized conversation? You would be providing the added service of getting rid of a great many trolls since the correlation between trolling and use of such language is quite high.

    But as long as we are banning offensive words, how about "Kraut". As a German I am very offended by its use and connotations. Why ban the pejorative use of J a p and not Kraut?
     
  16. It's called FOOTBALL

    LMX Clubs
    Mexico
    May 4, 2009
    Chitown
    Your sig makes perfect sense now.
     
  17. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    If you are talking about squa w not getting a yellow card then we might as well shut down this thread since anything I say on the subject makes no difference to the conclusions you want to make. So far I've seen you seemingly bend over backwards to assume the best about Mike and have no problems assuming the worst about the mod - without even bothering to ask him any questions about what happened.

    But maybe there is greater sensitivity for terms like ************** because of the history on BigSoccer - you were around to remember when Mike and even some mods went on a rampage in the Mexico forum after some big US win and all kinds of classless things were said.

    I'm sure as mods we will have no difficulty in keeping these discussions civil. I could probably accuse El Jefe of a number of things, but very dense isn't one of them.

    Ah - I think Mike is willing to slightly inconvenience the droves of folks that want to talk about Sqaw Valley in order to raise awareness to this term being very offensive to a number of people in his community. Did you know the term was highly offensive? Does having it in a place name make it less so?


    I've already answered some of these questions earlier in the thread - and if we wanted to ban folks who use the f word, we'd probably lose a lot of folks.

    As far as I know Kraut doesn't have the same history in this country as Ja p does of overt racism resulting in institutionalized discrimination. I'm okay with adding kraut if you think it's offensive and being used as a slur on the boards and serves no other purpose.
     
  18. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

    Nov 30, 2004
    Westfalenstadion
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    "Kraut" is only Ok if the word "sour" is in front of it...;)
     
  19. LoewenBoy

    LoewenBoy Member+

    Aug 25, 2004
    Giesing, Muenchen
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Sint Maarten
    I think this whole issue of banning words is off the edge of the map, to be honest. It is pretty clear when someone is using the word "j a p" as a pejorative term or merely as an abbreviation for "Japanese". Or were we banning it in reference to Jewish American Princesses? I did not read the whole thread, sorry. :D

    As for "F*ck" or "Sh*t" or "C*nt" or other words, I think the mods do a great job of cleaning that up when it gets over used. But I would not have a problem with with banishment of outright racist trolling if someone drops the "w*tback" or "kra*t" or "J*p" bomb. Why not? The mods are smart enough to know when someone is race-baiting and when they are not. I mean, will I be able to talk about my pet frog without it being **** out because someone thinks I am talking about some Frenchman? I think we're being over sensitive here.

    Besides, banning words just leads to work arounds like cvnt or pu$$y or j a p, so filtering words really accomplishes nothing other than increasing the linguistic creativity of our members. And where do we draw the line? Are we going to start employing mods to ban foreign words too? I like referring to Schalke as "Scheiss" or Bayern as "Bayscum".....and Forever Red and Dead Fingers and Hendrik do a great job of reeling in the folks when we get overly giddy with their usage. But to ban a word? Naw. Ban people, not words.
     
  20. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was skimming the thread and didn't read this clearly - I thought you were proposing we censor Jimmy Conrad's name. I can see making it Jimmy ******* Conrad, but just ***** ******? I don't think so.
     
  21. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    I think you may need to read the whole thread ;)

    As for the censor, I suspect there may be advertising reasons for keeping it around - but that's just a total guess on my part since I'm not involved with that - and expecting the mods to be in charge of that clean up every time isn't really feasible.
     
  22. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. It's crap to say that I'm bending over backwards to assume the best about him. I've said IN THIS THREAD that he's earned a punishment.

    2. It's also crap to say that I'm assuming the worst about the mod. BigSoccer saves a record of all the reported posts and infractions assessed -- except, curiously, for the Free For All forum. I don't have to assume anything. I can see all the other times he's assessed non-expiring 1000 point infractions. I can also see all the other times he's assessed infractions for racism. Finally, I can see that there is not much overlap between the two and when there have been 1000 point infractions assessed for racism, those posters brought nothing else to the table -- NOTHING -- but racist posts.

    So when I see that 1000 point infractions for racism are an extraordinary occurrence from this particular supermod and when I see that that supermod has had beef with Mike in the past, hell yeah, I'm going to think that he took extraordinary measures with Mike because he had a personal grudge and because he had the power.

    Yes, and it would appear that a result of this is that there is hypervigilance to anti-Mexican slurs all over BigSoccer -- not just the Mexico fora -- while bigotry against other groups don't get the same five-hour turnaround that Mike's post got. Hell, I don't think that TallTowerMan has admitted yet, after a month, that ICF used a slur against American Indians, even if ICF was man enough to admit that he was wrong. I guess that that's the reason why you had to give the infraction to ICF.

    And let's get something straight here. You're justifying

    1. TallTowerMan's excessively heavy-handed punishment over a post in the Free For All forum
    2. TallTowerMan's indulging personal grudges

    because several years back -- before TTM was even on BigSoccer -- there was some mischief in the Mexico forum. That's interesting to me because I'm sure that Mike has some long-standing grievances he'd like to redress. I'd like to know which supermod is going to be on call for him when he starts going through old post on BigSoccer reporting every use of "injun," "squaw," "redskin," and so on. I do hope that that supermod is named "TallTowerMan" because he does take such a strong stand against racist slurs on BigSoccer.

    And I know that when folks complain -- and they WILL complain -- you'll have his back.
     
  23. Horsehead

    Horsehead Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 2, 2006
    Los Angeles
    Some thoughts and info...

    1) It needs to be repeated that Mr. Warmth has used w-back multiple times here. He knows-knows-knows that it will be a problem. The first time I can remember seeing it from him was in P&CE. To fling some mud, he used the term wetb@ck wife at a poster because he knew that fella's spouse was a Latina. Ugly.

    2) Mr. Warmth is a wind-up merchant and provokes for merriment, sometimes it's entertaining and thought-provoking, sometimes it goes too far. If you're a mod and you're upset that he is treated unfairly, please review how many pages are in his infraction history. Most of them are for abusing other members here. Those are the ones that got infracted, there are many more that slipped by. Most folks would already have been banned a long time ago. If you want to make a point that other people have said bad things and gotten away with it, Mr. W is the wrong example to use. Seriously.

    If you see bad posts or stuff in a forum that is ugly, either report the post, or send a PM to one of the supermods. There will never be perfect equivalence in every situation, mods are volunteers doing the best they can. If it seems that slurs against Mexicans/Latinos are taken more seriously it is probably because there are statistically more of those slurs written. There are tens of thousands of Latinos trying to enjoy this soccer forum without having to see that crap. Women here get tired of sexist insults and are right to complain but there's not that many of us, it doesn't come up as much. There aren't that many American Indians here so were glad that Mike brought this to our attention but squ@w is a word that scarcely gets used here or anywhere for that matter, it's just not something that has come up before. However, any day of the year I can look at the comments at a newspaper and see the word wetbac k and beane r. (I know, I know Barbara, I shouldn't look but I do. :p)

    It is normal for a supermod's 'Racist' infraction to be 1000 points to send the strongest message possible. We don't have to do it that very often because it's for repeat offenders. Most folks get the message the first time they get scolded, some do not.

    3) Mr. Warmth is one of the special long-time personalities of bigsoccer, we know that, which is why unlike some people who have been kicked out for using racist words to insult, he might be able to come back. I don't personally believe he's an active racist. I've read his posts where he has called out racism by others. But no one gets to use racist slurs, it's the most basic agreement we all have to abide by. When he's not being a jerk, he makes some fantastic posts. But it's not Mr. Warmth if his posts are not jerky. I'm sure he's enjoying this drama. :D
     
  24. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    What I mean is you seem willing to assume that Mike is only using wb such as this second time as a means to bring out the stalker mod and that the mod is following him around because of a personal vendetta. I've seen others call the supermod racist and nothing about the guy who seems to have a penchant for mainly targeting one group of folks.

    I think you're getting a little too hung up on the 1000 point infraction part - it's just another way to issue a red card among many. We have to fill in a number and we often do 1000 just out of habit. Right after he issued the red, he came to me and passed off any questions of length of time to me. The points don't really mean that much.

    The supermod in this thread I think said he liked Mike and didn't have any personal problem with him, but Mike chose to continue to thumb his nose at him for his own reasons. Could he have let another supermod issue the red to maybe alleviate some of these accusations? I guess but at the end of the day, I had said many times in this thread that the yellow was getting off easy and Mike wanted to keep pushing it.



    I've addressed this stuff above, but I think TTM was lenient on Mike the first time - if I let a poster off easy and they shove it in my face, I'm likely to upgrade the punishment as well. Perhaps that's "indulging in personal grudges" but I'm not sure I have a problem with a mod letting a user off lightly and saying don't do that again and if they flaunt it again in their face to take the stronger action the next time. Is this really a problem to you?

    None of that seems excessively heavy handed to me. TTM can tell you that he and I don't always see eye to eye, but I disagree with your characterization of it as heavy handed given that it was made very clear that further uses of the term would be dealt with more harshly and that he had immediately passed the details of the red card over to me.
     
  25. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    This, I think, is actually the crux of the matter. I've been around long enough to know, and I modded long enough to know that there's some truth to this. And it's not just that years ago some jackasses went and trolled the Mexico board. There is a numbers aspect here as well, and Horsehead alludes to this. It has two aspects. First, there's a lot of Latinos on the boards and so a lot of opportunities for anti-Latino slurs and such to crop up. Second, years ago when I was modding the WC forums it became abundantly clear to me that the higher ups were deathly afraid of aggravating and alienating Latinos on these boards because they really wanted the traffic. I'm not saying that's wrong. Makes perfect sense. But I do think it has developed into the sort of double-standard of vigilance that ElJefe identifies.

    And I would add that with that hypervigilence, the autocensor has turned into something of a weapon. How do you know what somebody said is really bad? Because it's autocensored. How do you know when it might not be so bad? Because it's not autocensored. Why don't I have to explain the racism of such and such a statement? Because it's already autocensored - there's your proof. Why do I have to explain the racism of such and such a statement? Because it's not autocensored, so the burden of proof lies with you the reporting party. Why are you ignoring or dismissing my complaint? It's not on the autocensor ...

    DK seems to think that they way to resolve this is to add new words to the autocensor. But that's a fool's game. The list will never be exhaustive. It will always include some slurs and exclude others. Some of these exclusions are unavoidable (they are common words, they have other meanings and so on). The double standard of vigilance is inherent to the whole idea of an autocensor.

    I've always said that the way to solve moderating issues (and this is a moderating issue) is through better moderating. DK is right to guffaw at the idea that "mods are smart enough to know when someone is race-baiting and when they are not." They aren't. Nobody is. Sometimes things just go right over our heads because of imperfect knowledge and a lack of familiarity and so on. But mods should be smart enough to treat reports of racism and other hate speech very seriously and to treat them all with equal vigilance.* If that was already the case, then this thread would be much shorter.

    * I already discussed earlier in this thread the deference that ought to be paid to reporting parties in these matters. That is a way to try to overcome the moderator's inherent gaps in knowledge and sensitivity.
     

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