Formations Thread - 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 / 3-4-3

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Sofabloke, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. gatekeeper2

    gatekeeper2 Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    We definitely don't have the right players to pull off a 442 successfully. It's one game at a time stuff, tactics being adjusted to suit the players we have available as well as the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents.
     
  2. MizzouMUFC

    MizzouMUFC Member+

    Apr 10, 2010
    Places
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    That role fits Shaw. He has the speed to get up and down the flank. His final ball may not be best, but his speed and willingness to overlap will at least open up space for those that can do damage. Darmian isn't overly fast, has no end product, and doesn't defend very well.
     
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  3. Ashur

    Ashur Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    May 31, 2015
    Another time, another place
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    A look at the 3-4-3 and how it fits United.

    www.unitedrant.co.uk/opinion/mourinho-gains-from-back-three-experiment-but-pogba-is-the-man-to-lose-out

    As previously mentioned, really don't have anything against this formation in theory. But as things stand, we simply don't have the right personel to run it properly. And that applies in midfield as well where if we're going to play him in that setup, he needs another type of CM next to him than the likes of Carrick or Herrera, one that s much more solid defensively, to precisely give Pogba the freedom to play his game. In any type of mid 2, that is the type of midfielder Pogba will thrive with.
     
  4. Ruud v.Nistelrooy 10

    Staff Member

    Manchester United
    Jamaica
    Jun 4, 2006
    Krolva District (クロルバ区)
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Jamaica
    right. well i don't see it. being fast doesn't mean being good at it and his overlapping runs aren't good.

    it's one thing when he was 18 that he'd get up the flank and it wouldn't quite come off with the assist or final ball but it hasn't progressed since. truth be told he has had fragmented development but he has never impressed me offensively in any formation. i'm not convinced LWB is for him either.

    that said i am not worried he'll be sold i worry for his development though. like i said i worry about all our LBs and he has no good role models here to improve offensively or defensively
     
  5. Gnome

    Gnome Member+

    Nov 5, 2013
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Only place Shaw fits in a 343 is as the left sided CB. He's not a wingback. Doesn't have the attacking ability.

    Blind should be the central of the 3 cbs since hes the only CB on our team that can pass the ball and break lines.

    Think Jose is only using it to save Carrick for the run in.
     
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  6. MizzouMUFC

    MizzouMUFC Member+

    Apr 10, 2010
    Places
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    No. Just no. Even with 3 CBs he'd be expected to be competent in the air which he's not. Physically he doesn't have the size or strength to play inside. Blind got around that by being smart and reading the game well. Shaw isn't either of those things. He doesn't track runs well at LB. What would happen if he loses runners playing more central?

    Yeah, for all those reasons that is a stupid idea.
     
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  7. Ashur

    Ashur Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    May 31, 2015
    Another time, another place
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    #32 Ashur, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    The Shaw of prior his leg break was perfect to play as a wingback. His speed definitely helped, but as mentioned before, that is not the most important factor for the position (Marcos Alonso is a great example). A good wingback has to have stamina first and foremost and also be able to contribute significantly offensively (like Alonso or Rose), on top of being competent defensively.
    And Shaw had all those qualities prior to being injured. Don't know where he is now, but while his play vs Bournemouth was encouraging, it still showed he was a work in progress as it's been said time and again. I really believe that anything we get from him this season is gravy and he's still working himself back and we need to stop worrying about him. Jose has made it clear that he values him, he's not going anywhere and we need to be patient with him. Southgate selected for the England squad more as a morale booster, more than anything else (which was made easier with Rose not being available) and Bertrand will get the starting job and Shaw will probably get a nice cameo at best. I still believe that by the start of next season, he will be close to the player he once was. He's not there yet and that's ok really.
    As for now, the best candidate at the moment, given the qualities listed above, my pick would be AY. I think he's showed, once again this past weekend, how he can do the job in spot duty. Don't know how long he can keep this up, but his form as of late is as good as it's been and frankly, he's still the best crosser of the ball on the team as far as I'm concerned (and it's not even close either). Jose should have zero qualms right now in playing him as our starting LWB.
     
  8. Chaz Striker

    Chaz Striker Member+

    Jul 26, 2005
    Denver
    I agree with Asher. I don't think rvn10 is remembering the shaw and depay connect and how effective shaw was as an attacker and space opener.
     
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  9. JamesA

    JamesA Member+

    Dec 7, 2004
    Victoria
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Generally speaking though, the WB in a 343 don't have a lot of support to connect with. They need to be able to generate solo offense and a beat a player 1-1, not just with overlaps.
     
  10. Diable Rouge

    Diable Rouge Member+

    Jul 17, 2006
    ball skills are more important than pure speed for wing backs in a back-5. shaw is probably the worst crosser of the ball between himself, valencia, young and blind.
     
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  11. b0sk1

    b0sk1 Member+

    Jan 28, 2011
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    I think he likes to charge out of the back because NOBODY pressures him and he doesn't have any options that a player with his limited ball playing ability could make. Its like every team knows he is terrible with the ball so they just let him do whatever he pleases with it. Its like you said he'll make a 40 yd run only to go 60 yds backwards.
     
  12. MizzouMUFC

    MizzouMUFC Member+

    Apr 10, 2010
    Places
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Disagree. While being able to beat someone off the dribble is a big plus, it's not a requirement.
    First and foremost a wingback in a 3-4-3 needs to be able to get up and down the line. They are expected to cover a ton of ground. Both Tony V and Shaw can do this fine. Blind and Rojo cannot.

    Secondly, the wingbacks main contribution to the offense is providing an overlapping run so the winger isn't so isolated. The winger is the one expected to make something happen off the dribble. The overlap is just a second option and to provide the threat that the defense has to take seriously which creates more space. If the wingback can actually put in a decent delivery that's a bonus (none of ours can). Look at the difference in Depay's play for us when he had Shaw at the beginning of the season vs his play once Shaw was injured. Depay no longer had a willing LB to overlap with pace and since defenders knew he was going to cut inside he was out of options with no threat down the line.

    If we really wanted to commit to this formation (which I don't think we do), we would go out and get wingbacks/wingers that can play in the wingback position that may not be great defensively but have the offense skill and the pace to make it work. Chelsea are a perfect example of this. I don't think anyone thinks that Moses or Alonso are world class, but they fit that formation and style of play perfectly.
     
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  13. Gilma1990

    Gilma1990 Member+

    Jul 30, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    I don't get all this hate on Lukito. He was lights out before his injury. I think it's like what Ashur said. It's only a matter of time before he gets at least close to the level he was before.
     
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  14. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    This 343 that Chelsea, Spurs and ourself have been using doesn't employ wingers. These attackers play in the half space most time. The only players getting isolated in the wide area are the wingbacks. We saw this time and time again on Sunday. Mata and Lingard were never isolated out wide at any point.

    Valencia and Young were, quite a few times. One leading to the 1st goal iirc. Young created space among 2 markers. Something Shaw rarely (if ever) does. The wing backs are are the primary source of width.

    I think Spurs are getting away with Walker as a WB because at the very least he tries to attack his fullback even if he isn't the best dribbler.
     
  15. Stud83

    Stud83 Member+

    Jun 1, 2005
    If Jose is going to stick with playing 3 at the back, Blind is a much better option at LCB anyway (compared to Jones who's injured again)
     
  16. Gnome

    Gnome Member+

    Nov 5, 2013
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Right, so the point isn't that Shaw would be a good choice for a left sided CB (right now), but that he would be better there than as a wingback. He can't dribble, he can't cross - would be useless as a wingback. He's reasonably tall (6'), pretty strong, super fast and is a good passer of the ball - things that are useful for an outside CB.

    Spurs don't require wide dribblers as much because they create so many chances through counter pressing. Alli and Walker are elite counter pressers and they have a good pressing structure in general.
     
  17. Chaz Striker

    Chaz Striker Member+

    Jul 26, 2005
    Denver
    You mean when young pulled the ball back onto his favored foot? Yeah, Shaw doesn't have to do that on the left side.
     
  18. MizzouMUFC

    MizzouMUFC Member+

    Apr 10, 2010
    Places
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    You picked out things I said that helped your argument and ignored the rest.

    Yeah he's fairly tall but weak in the air. His speed doesn't matter as much when played centrally and you ignored his biggest problem with playing there which is his tendency to be in a bad position and not track runners. Out wide that can lead to a cross or dangerous ball being played in. Centrally that leads directly to scoring chances.

    Do I think he's an optimal choice for wingback? No. But of our current LWB options he's probably the best. He can get up and down the field, is willing to overlap and provide that threat, and has decent link up play. All he's missing really is a final ball and some confidence.
     
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  19. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    Shaw does have to create space for a cross or shot though, since he can't just dribble by his man.

    ------------------------


    For me, Blind is the best LWB we can chose from. He's not a dribbler but he can beat a man. He's typically a good crosser. He's a very good passer. He gets up and down the line.
     
  20. SyedZada

    SyedZada Member+

    May 14, 2008
    Santa Clara
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    And he gets beaten by a non moving object, just watch the Rostov game where he was LWB, every danger comes from his side.
     
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  21. MizzouMUFC

    MizzouMUFC Member+

    Apr 10, 2010
    Places
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    The ******** are you talking about? How the hell does Blind ever beat a man? Blind can't beat anyone off the dribble and in his defense he knows it so he doesn't even try. This is just an absurd statement.

    Blind is a good passer but he can't cross for shit when he gets in deep. For whatever reason he insists on lofting ball up when he gets to the end line. He's a good crosser swinging balls in from a deep position but that's about it. And sure, he gets up and down the line but it takes him a year to do so. He's arguably the slowest player on the field at any given time and you want to put him in a position that relies more on pace than anywhere else in the 11? No thanks. Any counter attack and we'll be immediately exposed on the left flank because Blind will be a mile behind trying to catch up.
     
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  22. gatekeeper2

    gatekeeper2 Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I agree with this...sort of. Blind suffers from the various deficiencies that have been described here, but he still manages to get the job done. If Jones is out and Jose sticks with the back 3 the better option over Blind would be Rojo. Smalling, Bailly and Rojo. (Not a big fan of Smalling any longer but he'll have to do until we sort out the CB situation this summer.) But if for whatever reason Rojo presents a risk then Blind makes a lot of sense.

    We've got two kinds of opponents coming up -- opponents we should hammer (such as Sunderland and Burnley) and opponents who are good enough to hammer us (such as Chelsea and City). Sadly for our top four hopes, we have a brutal schedule to end the season. I'd like to believe that Jose will adopt more aggressive tactics for the former and more conservative tactics for the latter. Blind patches holes but he's really not the best answer for either aggressive or conservative tactics. A shame he's got no speed whatsoever as we too often play the game too slowly. But he's still useful to have on the squad.
     
  23. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    You're right. Beat a man is wrong. He is good enough on the ball to create space and avoid a tackle from time to time.
     
  24. SyedZada

    SyedZada Member+

    May 14, 2008
    Santa Clara
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Should play Blind as the deepest mid or third CB, he does not fit anywhere else.
     
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  25. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    --other--
    Blind can beat a man if that man over plays his hand. He does it routinely but ONLY when that happens. Otherwise he will recycle possession or hit an early cross. He could be used any position along the backline. He would thrive as the DLP/CB or as the LWB IF we played Martial in attack.
     

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