Footballs Mount Rushmore by Era

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Tom Stevens, Nov 4, 2014.

  1. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Are you including defensive players? If you are, how about Nilton Santos and Rossi?
     
  2. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yes I am considering defenders, there are just not a whole lot of situations where a defender is the representative player of a great team. Looking ahead Facchetti is someone who is on the bubble for the for the late 60s, as he was one of the signature players of Italy and Inter. I included Germano in the HM and he is close to interchangeable with Coluna as he was among the best/most highly rated player for Benfica in the early 60s. As good as Nilton Santos was in an absolute sense, probably seen as a little bit ahead of Germano by many, he was not the signature player at any point for Brazil or his clubs. They had famous attacking players that were always more representative. At least that is what I have perceived.
     
  3. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #128 Tom Stevens, Nov 24, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
    1965-1969

    Important international competitions: 1966 World Cups, 1968 Euro.

    Important trends: England/Manchester United's success, strong Italian generation, Benfica/Portugal near misses, Brazil in transition.

    Bobby Charlton: The representative figure of two great sides of the time, England and Manchester United. Although it could be argued that Bobby Moore was a bit better at the 66 World Cup and George Best was slightly more decisive in the 1968 European Cup run, Charlton was a major factor in both. Charlton was capped a massive 49 times for England in this era, scoring 16 goals. He was England's star player going into the World Cup, and unlike those before him, he delivered on that promise as a major factor as England lifted the cup. His signature performance came against Portugal and Eusebio in the semifinal where he scored a brace in a 2-1 victory against the tournaments top player. He also led England to third place in Euro 1968. With Manchester United he combined with Best and Law to for an excellent attacking trio. United won the First Division twice in 65 and 67, with their biggest triumph at the 1968 European Cup. Charlton scored twice in the final, a 4-1 extra time victory.

    Eusebio: Eusebio helped continue Benfica's dominating ways, and had clearly become the clubs leading player in the late 60s. He also did something no other Portuguese player, or group of Portuguese players had ever done, elevated the national team to a major title contender. Eusebio and Benfica continued to dominate domestically winning 4 league titles (65, 67, 68, 69) and one cup (69). Eusebio was the top scorer of the league 4 times (65, 66, 67, 68). Overall Eusebio scored 179 domestic goals in 137 games in the late 60s. Benfica continued to be a major player in Europe with Eusebio being the driving force. He led them to the final in 65 and 68, but both times they failed to bring home the title. He was the top scorer of the 65, 66, 68 editions of the European Cup. With Portugal he made his biggest impact. Despite Benfica's European success in the early 60s Portugal, led by the same group of players, failed to qualify for the 1962 World Cup or the 1964 European Championship. In fact, Portugal had never qualified for a major tournament in its history. Eusebio would change that as he rose to prominence in the team in the mid 60s. In the 1966 WC qualification, Eusebio led Portugal to first place in their qualifying group with a game to spare, scoring 7 times in 6 games. In the final tournament Eusebio excelled scoring 9 goals in 6 games and finishing as the tournaments top scorer. Portugal were drawn in the tournaments most difficult group, with two time defending champion Brazil, a powerful Hungary side, and a lively Bulgaria who had prevented Portugal from qualifying for Euro 64. Portugal advanced with a perfect 3-0 record and a 9-2 goal differential. Eusebio scored a brace vs Brazil in a 3-1 win that eliminated the two time defending champions from the tournament. After an amazing comeback sparked by Eusebio's four goals in the quarterfinals vs North Korea, Portugal would lose in the semifinal vs England before claiming third place vs the Soviet Union.

    Tostão: The the late 60s Tostão emerged as the legitimate contender and successor to Pele's throne atop the Brazilian football. He also led the first team outside the two major Brazilian leagues, Rio and Sao Paulo, to be considered the best team in Brazil, making way for many great side outside the two major leagues after him. Tostão was built in the same mold as Pele, a complete goal scoring and play making forward. With Cruzeiro, Tostão dominated the Campeonato Mineiro winning all five competitions in this period and was the top scorer in four of those seasons (65, 66, 67, 68). Tostão's rise to stardom happened in the 1966 Brazilian Championships. Cruzeiro had reached the finals where they would face the legendary Santos side led by Pele, who were the 5 times defending Brazlian Champions and considered invincible in Brazil. The first leg of the final was played at home with Cruzeiro shocking the world with a 6-2 victory. Tostão was the star of the match and afterwards was declared by many in the press the new king of football. In the return leg in Sao Paulo Santos jumped out to a 2-0 lead and it appeared to many that a third match would be necessary (tie were decided on points not goal differential), but Cruzeiro staged an amazing comeback winning the match 3-2. Tostão's rise with Cruzeiro led him to a prominent place in the national team, pairing with Pele. Pele was known as the Black King and Tostão the White King, they had a great connection together. Famous Brazilian journalist Armando Nogueira wrote, "The rhythm of Pele and Tostao confirms the existence of God". They reached their peak together in qualification for the 1970 World Cup where Tostão would score 10 goals in 6 games and confirm his place of Pele's successor and even surpassed Pele in this era as the best player in Brazil. Unfortunately an eye injury right before the World Cup threatened his career. Despite being excellent in 1970 he was never the same player again.

    George Best: The electric winger from from Northern Ireland took the football world by storm with Manchester United. Still a teenager he won the First Division in 1965, the again in 1967. He made his biggest mark in the European Cup. In the 1966 European Cup quarterfinals Best ripped apart Benfica in Lisbon in a shocking 6-2 victory by United over the finalists in 4 of the last 5 European Cups. The Portuguese media dubbed Best the Fifth Beatles after his amazing display where he scored two goals. In 1968 he was the top scorer and outstanding player in the First Division. He also led United to the European Cup giving man of the match performances in almost every tie including the final.

    Explanation/Honorable mentions: This was a very tough era to decide on with a number of excellent contenders. Best was my toughest choice, as Charlton had already represented Man U's success. Although I like the Tostão pick a lot, a number of players have resume's equal to his as well. Carlton and Eusebio are the only two sure things for me. Bobby Moore was seen by many as England top player at the 66 World Cup and captained England throughout this period. He also won the Cup Winners Cup with West Ham. A a case could be made fro him to be anywhere in the list, even replacing Chartlon. A number of great Italian players were prominent during this period, led by Giacinto Facchetti. He captained Inter and Italy throughout the period. He was the protagonist of Inter's second consecutive European and Intercontinental Cups in 1965 and was crucial to a number of their other runs deep into the European Cup in the period. He also won domestic titles in 1965 and 66. In 66 he scored an amazing 10 goals in the defensive minded Serie A as a defender despite not taking penalties. He also captained Italy to the 1968 European Championship. I am still considering him as a possibility above Best. Sandro Mazzola shared Facchetti's achievements with club and country and was both teams key play maker. Gianni Rivera was the great play maker at the center of AC Milan's side. He led Milan to the Serie A title in 1968, the Italian Cup in 1967, the Cup Winners Cup in 1968, and the European Cup and Intercontinental Cup in 1969. Luigi Riva was the breakout star striker for Italy in this period. He scored the winning goal at Euro 68 (7 goals for the whole tournament) and was the star of 1970 WC qualification, scoring 7 goals in 4 games. He also led lowly Cagliari to the top of the Serie A and was the tournaments top scorer in 67 and 69. Florian Albert was the star player for an excellent Hungary side in this era and was considered one of the top players in Europe. Dragan Dzajic gave the star performance in Euro 68 and like Albert was considered one of the top European players in the world at this time. Franz Beckenbauer was also an emerging star both with Germany and Bayern Munich, especially after a great WC performance in 1966.

    In South America Pedro Rocha was the main player I considered for possibly placing instead of Tostao or Best. He was great in the Copa Libertadores for Penarol in 1965 and 66, leading his team to the title in 66 and the Intercontinental Cup. Penarol were dominant domestically and Rocha was also the Key player for Uruguay who won the 1967 South American Championship. Jairzinho was reaching his peak in this period with Botafogo, winning a host of trophies and becoming a mainstay in the national team. Juan Ramón Verón was the star offensive player for an upstart Estudiantes team that won the Argentine league in 1967 and the Copa Libertadores in 1968 and 69, winning the Intercontinental Cups in 1968 as well.
     
  4. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Celtic
    Scotland
    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    I am admittedly biased but I still have to ask the question... why no Celtic player? Not even worthy of an honourable mention...?
     
    Tom Stevens and msioux75 repped this.
  5. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Good call, they slipped my mind. Johnstone is the famous name, would he be your choice for inclusion?
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I liked Tom's write up and repped it but yeah that's a fair question and I'd guess if there's one iconic player to represent the club in such a write-up as the main star then Jinky Johnstone would likely be the one? I think him and Cruyff could be added as HM's (but it's different for Cruyff as he is still to come in the next post I would think! - like Rivera didn't appear for 60-64 but is in the late 60's post, albeit missing out on the top 4 and being part of Mount Rushmore).
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Great minds think alike...or it was a bit of an obvious call!
     
  8. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Celtic
    Scotland
    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    Johnstone is probably the main one although anyone could build a case for a number of others such as Gemmill, McNeil, Lennox, Bertie Auld and Bobby Murdoch.

    Also worth bearing in mind that during the 1965-69 period Celtic won every league title. Additionally the team in 1967 won every competition it entered - European Cup, Scottish League, Scottish Cup, Scottish League Cup and, last but not least, the Glasgow Cup!

    The Glasgow Cup may sound like some sort of mickey mouse tournament but it was eagerly contested (mainly between Celtic and Rangers but also included Partick Thistle, Clyde and Queens Park) up until the mid 80's. The last big final (1986) saw a crowd of over 40,000 witness Rangers beat Celtic 3-2 courtesy of an Ally McCoist hat-trick.
     
  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I was curious about what would be the fourth player in your main mention (apart of Eusébio, Charlton and Best), if Rivera or Tostao. It was a shame what happened to the Brazilian then.

    Guessing the upcoming elections:

    1970-1974: Beckenbauer, Müller and Cruyff by sure. I think the fourth mention must be between van Hanegem and Rivelino. Honorable mentions for Zoff, Figueroa, Neeskens, Netzer and Cubillas.

    1975-1979: This is really difficult, the best players in this period had their highest peaks before or after (Zico, Platini, Rivelino, Cubillas, Cruyff, Maradona and Falcao). In any case, some possible names for the mentions would be Argentines Fillol, Passarella, Bochini and Kempes, Blokhin, Keegan, Rensenbrink and Krol. There are still good honorable mentions for Italian Scirea and Tardelli, Dalglish and Simonsen.
     
    Tom Stevens and Pipiolo repped this.
  10. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    As honorable mentions, I would add Jairzinho and Gerson to the 70-74, and Sotil and Bertoni to the 75-79.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The problem is that so many decades later the people automatically equate success with form. But it's not so easy. For ex. Cruijff had his most prolific seasons in the European Cup/UEFA Cup (UEFA Cup was according to some more competitive) in 1968-69, 1976-77 and 1977-78. Of course the nature of his game (and the one of Johnstone for that matter) makes an equation between scoring form and performance equally troublesome (then 1966-67 stands out), but it does tell a little bit.
    Similarly, there are accounts of Charlton perhaps being past his physical, consistency and creative peak at 1968 (for ex. the piece I once posted by Hopcraft) but he did score more in 1967-68 as in the previous season. Ronaldinho in 2006-07 also remains a classic example of course.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I see what you mean. I think for his complete game, as developed by the early to mid 70's and his WC in 74 plus other form for Holland and of course for Ajax and at the start of his Barcelona career then 70-74 seems the choice for his inclusion. But as HM's he probably would merit one in 65-69 and 75-79 I would think.

    Ronaldinho (and the overall choices for 05-09) is maybe not going to fit in a 'perfect' slot years wise if the players are meant to be in similar form through the period in question. I guess he will be in 05-09 rather than 00-04 though and I doubt he'd be left out (for peak but also because the 05-09 choices could be scarce - it maybe is just about a 'perfect' slot to include Kaka in though - perhaps it could have gone back another year or season but that's pretty much his peak time).
     
  13. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I think Sotil had a better 70-I performance than the 70-II (sub in Barcelona and irregular in Alianza Lima).

    Whereas in the 1st half, he had his best season in Barcelona and the stellar player in Municipal (a 2nd tier club in Peru).

    Not enough to merit a "worldwide trend" nomination , I guess.
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He was unlucky to arrive on the bench though. Barcelona signed both Neeskens and Marinho with the procedure to naturalize the Brazilian and Peruvian into Spaniards already started. But the request was rejected by the Spanish government (which they decided on a case-by-case basis). That was bad luck for him.
     
  15. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    #140 msioux75, Nov 27, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
    Yeah, also he didn't take care of his fitness.
    So, after he won the title in 73/74, averages 8 official matches by season and when returned to Perú he only show flashes of his great talent.
    I think he must played for another spanish club when the starting spot in Barcelona wasn't secure, and his prime would been longer.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I forgot to add 80-84 as a section that could even be reasonable for Cruyff to get an HM in I'd say (but I wouldn't say I'd expect it - the list has to stop somewhere and I could see also why the same names might not be repeated too often even as HM's). Anyway, yeah Puck I think it's pretty hard to get a gauge on whether he could rival a Rivera, or Tostao for 64-69 or a Beckenbauer but picking one section I suppose him and Beckenbauer are always likely to be put in 70-74. Amongst us on here you probably have the best idea about his form pre 70 anyway I'd think.
     
  17. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    I think Gigi Riva might be a player who is a bit underappreciated generally. He racked up a very good number of goals for "lowly" Cagliari in the most unfriendly circumstances for an offensive player (60s/70s Serie A) and that as an outside left in a league that only had 30 matchdays ....
     
  18. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Interesting that you included Tostao, I thought I would have expected any Italian (chances hurt by deciding which one is most deserving?) or Moore (another British player?).
     
  19. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Sotil reached his highest peak at early 70's in my opinion.
     
    msioux75 repped this.
  20. Puskas 1988

    Puskas 1988 Member

    Dec 9, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Great job!

    However, I would include Rivera in the Mount Rushmore instead of Tostao. As you say yourself: "Gianni Rivera was the great play maker at the center of AC Milan's side. He led Milan to the Serie A title in 1968, the Italian Cup in 1967, the Cup Winners Cup in 1968, and the European Cup and Intercontinental Cup in 1969." AND he won the Ballon d'Or in 1969. I also have the impression (I might be wrong) that overall he was a better player than Tostao (well, he was probably more gifted than Charlton, also :D ), and I'm pretty sure he was more "iconic" than him in the era -if that's the main criteria of inclusion.
     
  21. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Rivera is a good choice for the top four that year, probably just as good as Tostao along with Riva and Faccheti. Rivera was clearly an iconic player in Europe at this time as was Tostao in Brazil, which was still the footballing nation in the world after their back to back world cup victories. Arguing Rivera was a better/more gifted footballer is questionable in my opinion. Tostao had absolutely everything in his bag and compared favorably to Pele during their time together. Rivera had a better career than Tostao because of longevity, but they were both massively gifted/skilled/intelligent players and I don't really see one clearly above the other in a ability/skill sense.
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  22. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1970-1974 Important international competitions: 1970 and 1974 World Cups, 1972 Euro.

    Important trends: Germany and the Netherlands battle for supremacy both internationally and at the club level in Europe. Brazil's great 1970 team.

    Johan Cruyff: No need to elaborate greatly here as Cruyff's credentials in this period are unquestionable. The star of the Ajax team that won three consecutive European Cups in convincing fashion. He turned around Barcelona in a single season winning La Liga in 74. He was also the star of Netherlands famous 1974 World Cup team that fell just short of the title, playing excellently and capturing the world imagination.

    Franz Beckenbauer: Cruyff's great rival both in international and club competition. Led Bayern Munich winning three Bundesliga's during this time, although Bayern could not claim the European Cup until 1974 when Cruyff left Ajax. Captained Germany throughout the period to the most successful time in the countries history. In the 1970 World Cup Germany knocked out defending champions England before falling in nth semifinal. In Euro 1972 they won the tournament in dominating fashion. This set up the climactic struggle in WC 1974 before between Germany and the Netherlands where Germany won the final 2-1.

    Gerd Muller: The goal scoring machine combined with Beckenbauer at Bayern and Germany to lead the teams to great success. He scored an astounding 48 goals in 42 games for Germany during this period highlighted by being top scorer at WC 1970 with 10 goals in 6 games, scoring 10 goals in 8 games throughout Euro 1972 as Germany dominated, and scoring the winning goal in the 1974 World Cup Final. With Bayern he was top scorer on the German league in four of the five seasons during this period and was top scorer of the European Cup twice. In 1972-73 he set the all time single season European record for goals scored that stood for 40 years.

    Roberto Rivellino: The great Brazilian playmaker was a vital cog in possibly the greatest national team of all time, Brazil 1970. Moved to the left wing to accommodate the large number of #10s in the team his performance did not suffer in the least, as he was one of the tournaments best players. When many of the 1970 teams other top players (Pele, Tostao, etc) moved on Rivellino carried the torch for Brazil into the future, and was excellent at the 1974 World Cup leading Brazil to the semifinal.

    Explanations Honorable mentions: The only choice there was any debate for in my mind was Rivellino. I selected him because I felt a member of Brazil 1970 was a must and he had the best career for Brazil after 1970 of any of the other stars of the 1970 tournament like Jairzinho, Gerson, or Nilton Santos. If another player from the 1970 side had to be mentioned after Rivellino it would still probably be Pele as he was the most recognizable figure of the team and played very well. The major competitors for Rivellino's place come from the two dominant European nations of the period. Willem van Hanegem leads this group for me, and I really wish I could have gotten him into the top four as I feel he was very underrated in this period. He was Cruyff's main rival domestically and van Hanegem and Feyenoord took two of the five Dutch titles at Ajax's expense. He also led Feyenoord to the European Cup in 1970, making them the first Dutch team to ever do so. He added the UEFA Cup to his trophy cabinet in 1974 and was a vital part of the great Dutch national team at WC 1974. Johan Neeskens and Ruud Krol were also vital parts of Ajax and the Netherlands. Gunter Netzer was the other major German player of the time. He led Borussia Mönchengladbach to rival the great Bayern teams of the time winning the Bundesliga twice and giving a spectacular performance in Euro 1972.
     
    Pipiolo and JamesBH11 repped this.
  23. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Kazimierz Deyna needs to be in the honorable mention as well.
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  24. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    and .. Cubillas from Peru
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  25. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Probably should add Teofilo Cubillas to the HM as well although I was unsure of early 70s or late 70s being his best era maybe both?

    In the early 70s club wise he was excellent for Alianza in 70, 71, and 72 (although I do not believe he won the title) but 73 and 74 are kind of lost moving around with partial seasons in Basel and Porto. There were also some famous club friendlies in 1971 where a Alianza - Municipal combined team had some excellent results in a European tour vs Benfica and Bayern with Cubilas shining. For the national team he was great at WC 70 but i do not know of any other major moments.

    In the late 70s he had his best years with Porto in but he failed to win the title, he had three great years with Alianza after moving back to Peru winning back to back titles. For the national team he had the triumph in the 75 Copa America and another excellent world cup in 78.

    To me his achievements look slightly better in the late 70s but I am not sure. Also does anyone have a good handle on what specifically won him the South American Footballer of the year in 1972? He was top scorer of the Libertadores with 6 goals in 6 games but his team did not make it past the first group stage. He did not win any trophies in 1972 or have any particularly important international achievements to my knowledge.
     
    msioux75 repped this.

Share This Page