I've seen a few people putting up some lists with players of the year but something I wondered if anyone was interested in was trying to repeat another exercise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisden_Cricketers_of_the_Year I don't know if anyone is familiar with Wisden but each year cricket's bible picks 5 players who have had the biggest impact over the last year. Once you have been selected you can't be picked again. So unlike the Ballon d'Or there isn't a case of a Messi or Ronaldo sharing the prize for a decade. Anyone interested in trying to do something similar for football? @PDG1978 @Tom Stevens @PuckVanHeel @peterhrt @Once
Yes, that does look really interesting comme I think. I knew of Wisden, and bought some books as presents in the past, and was probably more of a cricket fan in my youth (under 18) but I never studied those awards. It'd definitely be another way to look at football, and lots of names would be recognised. It's sort of like a hall of fame in effect but without the normally associated longevity aspect I suppose. More like a list of top performers over calendar years, or people might prefer seasons for football although I'd not necessarily be very swayed that way as a preference while not being against it either. Some players would get recognition very early in a great career. Some would register with their best ever year (early or late in career). Maybe a good one for Tom, Peru, msioux, Peterhrt etc regarding pre 1950 (and yourself having input too obviously)? From 1950 onwards there might be overlap with the Big Soccer Members POY thread and/or some of your seasonal ones. Maybe a voting system would work, or alternatively some sort of debating committee (open to all to comment at least though)? I think I'd add some votes, ideas and general input but anyway would look closely at any progress. By the end of 2017 maybe the forum would be ready to start running things in real time, with annual votes?! Interesting to see the list for Cricketers definitely (names in late 70's and 1980 for example, or Brian Lara missing out in 1994 and getting in instead a year later). It's difficult to know who'd have just been inducted in 2016 for football, without thinking retrospectively first but I guess the likes of Mahrez and Griezmann would be very much in the mix, while it'd be uncertain if Modric and Ozil would already have been put in earlier maybe (I guess so probably).
I guess a big issue would be whether or not you picked players chronologically, or you took the approach of hindsight. If you are picking chronologically Puskas might pop up on your list in 1948, but if you were using hindsight you might want to pick a player in one of his most famous seasons, e.g. use Puskas in 1953.
Looking again at the Wisden selections (not that a football one would have to follow exactly) I wonder whether the years shown are the years of the book (so players selected based on the previous year) or whether there was some consideration of waiting until a player had confirmed his form wasn't too much a flash in the pan sort of thing (but then certain years, like I'd have thought Lara's in 1994, might seem weirdly not recognised if the player didn't go on to 'confirm' his class). The retrospective Leading Cricketer in the World recognitions do, at first glance (re: Richards, Warne, Lara for example) suggest one of these things (the years shown on the Cricketers of the Year page being related to the publication of the book, or a reluctance to 'induct' too soon as a Cricketer of the Year) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisden_Leading_Cricketer_in_the_World EDIT - Although the Cricketers of the Year selections were mostly based on the English game (including Test matches against or in England though I guess too) so in theory that could explain a difference...but Lara did score 501 runs in English County Cricket and 375 in a Test Match in England in 1994.
The emblematic case I have in mind, would be picking Belanov for 1986, assuming that a young Maradona already won it. An interesting exercise
I think it would be fun to the do the exercise with hindsight. Trying to do it chronologically is problematic. I gave it a quick whirl and especially if you want to go back to the early days where the player pool is smaller you end up using up the top players far before their best years. I would like to do the exercise with input from the whole forum. I could make a list of years and posters could nominate a player for what they thought his most representative/impactful/greatest season. Then other posters can weight in (present other primary sources that may agree or disagree with the initial assessment) and hopefully a consensus can be reached. If we generally start with the best players and place them first then we can fill out the rest of the spots to make a top 5 for each year. Towards the end of the exercise we may want to shuffle some players around to get the best fit. If you feel you have a certain amount of knowledge about a player or time period feel free to make some nominations. For example, @peterhrt wants to make some nominations for the top players of the Victorian Age that would be great, as he seems to have spent more time than most looking closely at available information about those players. I want to start the discussion about a few top players. 1) Garrincha seems like a good place to start because I do not see a whole lot of argument about what his best year was. In 1962 he was Botafogo's star player as they nearly swept all three major competitions in Brazil. They won the Rio State Championship edging out Flamengo by a single point. In the deciding game of the season vs Flamengo, Garrincha scored a brace. Botafogo also won the Rio-Sao Paulo Tournament in 1962 with a 6-0-1 record. Garrincha played all 7 games scoring twice. Botafogo also made the final of the Brazilian Championship to face Santos where they lost a 3 match tie. Santos won at home 4-3 before Botafogo returned the favor winning 3-1 in Rio. But in the third and deciding match Santos took the title. Most famously in 1962 Garrincha was also Brazil's star player in the victorious World Cup Pele was injured in the second game of the tournament and Garrincha stepped forward as Brazil's Star player. He gave especially fantastic performances in the quarterfinal vs England and the semifinal vs hosts Chile, scoring braces in both games. He finished as the tournaments co-top scorer and is widely acknowledged as the tournaments star player. I do not think Garrincha has another season that compares to this. 2) Di Stefano is another interesting player to discuss. Although maybe not as clear cut as Garrincha I have always been under the impression that his best year was 1957. Real Madrid won the league with a comfortable 5 point cushion and Di Stefano was the leagues top scorer with a very impressive 31 goals in 30 games, 13 goals ahead of the next highest scorer. He led Real to their second consecutive European Cup, scoring 7 times in 8 games. He gave one of his most famous performances in the semifinal vs a very impressive Manchester United side known as Busby's Babes. He also led Real to victory in the final addition of the Latin Cup, beating AC Milan 5-1 in the semifinal. Between these two competitions Di Stefano led Real to victories over a whose who of top European teams and players: Rapid Vienna featuring Happel, Hanappi, Korner, and Dienst; Manchester United featuring Edwards, Taylor, and Byrne; Fiorentina featuring Julinho, Cervato, Segato. and Montouri; AC Milan featuring Schiaffino, Liedholm, and Buffon; Benfica featuring Coluna and Aguas. He played for Spain 7 times scoring an impressive 7 goals but was part of the squad that failed to qualify for the world cup, the one blemish on this season. The only year that I see that could rival this would be 1960, because of the iconic nature of the European Cup defeating Barcelona and the running rampant in the final. But I do not believe he was as good domestically this year. I think
I think you could do either, or maybe take a bit of a pragmatic approach in terms of trying to fit players together to get an overall mix that included the best individuals. Where would be a good place to start? At the very beginning? 1872? Or maybe 1900? Or start post-war and then move forward from there?
I think this is the most important point to discuss in this exercise. Although it seems interesting to try to do it chronologically, we'd have to accept that many could appear in years prior to their greatest explosion, which could be a bit strange or be somewhat disengaged (I can think of too many examples). Doing it retrospectively can give us a better structured order and we could begin arming the puzzle with the players more easily related to a greater year in particular (as Di Stéfano for 1957 or Garrincha for 1962), but I think we'd have a mandatory stop. We couldn't do it with active players, at least not until now (2016) because we don't know for sure if they are not going to have better years later (Mahrez or Griezmann, for example). Which way would we take?
Depends also on where you start. If you start in 1920 or 1930 then I'd tend to a 'yes' (because many other viable candidates have already been picked). If it is 1946 as a starting point then I'm leaning to a 'no'. In the immediate post-war years it is really difficult to assess the opponents quality (building up from the ruins), and how they performed at international level (for club and country). This improved in the early 1950s.
What do you know about the standing of those players at the time itself? What has happened with Paul Scholes might also be true of a few of these ones. With as difference that back then there wasn't a host of awards (with a few exceptions: I know for example that Gento won a few 'player of the year' awards in the 1950s and Wilkes won it in 1954).
So as a starter for 10, here is a list of players who have finished in the top 5 of the Ballon d'Or, sorted by their first appearance in the top 5. If we were just going chronologically then this might be a starter: 1956 – Matthews, Di Stefano, Kopa, Puskas, Yashin 1957 – Wright, Edwards, Kubala 1958 – Rahn, Fontaine, Hamrin, Charles 1959 – Suarez, Simonsson 1960 – Seeler 1961 – Sivori, Haynes 1962 – Masopust, Eusebio, Schnellinger, Sekularac, Jurion 1963 – Rivera, Greaves, Law 1964 – Amancio, Van Himst 1965 – Facchetti, Charlton 1966 – Beckenbauer, Moore, Albert 1967 – Johnstone 1968 – Best, Dzajic 1969 – Riva, Muller, Cruyff, Kindvall 1970 – Overath 1971 – Mazzola, Netzer 1972 – Keizer 1973 – Zoff, Bremner 1974 – Deyna, Breitner, Neeskens 1975 – Blokhin, Vogts, Maier 1976 –Rensenbrink, Viktor, Keegan, Platini, 1977 - Simonsen, Bettega, 1978 – Krankl, Rossi 1979 – Rummenigge, Krol, Kaltz 1980 – Schuster, Van Moer, Ceulemans 1981 – 1982 – Giresse, Boniek, Conti 1983 – Dalglish, Strachan, Magath 1984 – Tigana, Rush, Elkjaer, Chalana 1985 – M Laudrup 1986 – Belanov, Lineker, Butragueno, Amoros 1987 – Gullit, Futre, Michel 1988 – Van Basten, Rijkaard, Koeman, Mikhailichenko 1989 – Baresi, Matthaus, Shilton 1990 – Schillaci, Brehme, Gascoigne 1991 – Papin, Pancev, Prosinecki, Savicevic 1992 – Stoichkov, Bergkamp, Hassler, Schmeichel 1993 – Baggio, Cantona, Boksic 1994 – Maldini, Brolin, Hagi 1995 – Weah, Klinsmann, Litmanen, Klinsmann, Del Piero 1996 – Sammer, Shearer, Ronaldo 1997 – Mijatovic, Roberto Carlos, Zidane 1998 – Suker, Owen, Rivaldo 1999 – Beckham, Shevchenko, Batistuta, Figo 2000 – Henry, Nesta 2001 – Raul, Kahn, Totti 2002 – Ballack 2003 – Nedved 2004 – Deco, Ronaldinho, Zagorakis 2005 – Lampard, Gerrard 2006 – Cannavaro, Buffon 2007 – Kaka, Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Drogba, Pirlo 2008 – Torres, Casillas, Xavi 2009 – Iniesta, Eto’o 2010 – Sneijder, Forlan 2011 – Rooney 2012 – Falcao 2013 – Ribery, Ibrahimovic, Neymar 2014 – Neuer, Robben, Muller 2015 – Lewandowski, Suarez 2016 - Griezmann
Great idea. Time permitting, it would be interesting to see the difference between lists compiled with and without hindsight.
This is the same list but organised by the player's highest appearance (where they have finished in the same position more than once, I have only listed the first instance): 1956 – Matthews 1957 – Di Stefano, Wright, Edwards, Kubala 1958 – Kopa, Rahn, Fontaine, Hamrin 1959 – Charles Simonsson 1960 – Suarez, Puskas, Seeler 1961 – Sivori, Haynes 1962 – Masopust, Schnellinger, Sekularac, Jurion 1963 – Yashin, Greaves 1964 – Law, Amancio, Van Himst 1965 – Eusebio, Facchetti 1966 – Charlton 1967 – Albert, Johnstone 1968 – Best, Dzajic 1969 – Rivera, Riva, Kindvall 1970 – Muller, Moore, Overath 1971 – Cruyff, Mazzola 1972 – Beckenbauer, Netzer, Keizer 1973 – Zoff, Bremner 1974 – Deyna, Neeskens 1975 – Blokhin, Vogts, Maier 1976 –Rensenbrink, Viktor 1977 - Simonsen, Bettega, 1978 – Keegan, Krankl 1979 – Krol, Kaltz 1980 – Rummenigge, Schuster, Van Moer, Ceulemans 1981 – Breitner 1982 – Rossi Giresse, Boniek, Conti 1983 – Platini, Dalglish, Strachan, Magath 1984 – Tigana, Rush, Chalana 1985 – Elkjaer, M Laudrup 1986 – Belanov, Lineker, Butragueno, Amoros 1987 – Gullit, Futre, Michel 1988 – Van Basten, Rijkaard, Koeman, Mikhailichenko 1989 – Baresi, Shilton 1990 – Matthaus, Schillaci, Brehme, Gascoigne 1991 – Papin, Pancev, Prosinecki, Savicevic 1992 –Bergkamp, Hassler, Schmeichel 1993 – Baggio, Bergkamp, Cantona, Boksic 1994 – Stoichkov, Maldini, Brolin, Hagi 1995 – Weah, Klinsmann, Litmanen, Del Piero, Kluivert 1996 – Sammer, Shearer, 1997 – Ronaldo, Mijatovic 1998 – Zidane, Suker, 1999 – Rivaldo Beckham, Batistuta 2000 – Figo, Henry, Nesta 2001 – Owen, Raul, Kahn, Totti 2002 – Roberto Carlos, Ballack 2003 – Nedved 2004 – Shevchenko, Deco, Zagorakis 2005 – Ronaldinho, Lampard, Gerrard 2006 – Cannavaro, Buffon 2007 – Kaka, Drogba, Pirlo 2008 – Cristiano Ronaldo, Torres, Casillas, 2009 – Messi, Xavi, Eto’o 2010 – Iniesta, Sneijder, Forlan 2011 – Rooney 2012 – Falcao 2013 – Ribery, Ibrahimovic, 2014 – Neuer, Robben, Muller 2015 – Neymar, Lewandowski 2016 – Griezmann, Suarez
I think lanman's idea of taking both approaches (Wisden's - attempting to pick players as they'd have been picked in real time even though we're doing it retrospectively; and also Tom's proposal to make a Hall of Fame of legendary, or at least excellent, individual years or seasons but still with just one per player and 5 per year) is a good one. Maybe we could start one later than the other (I mean the opening year not literally whether we do them both at the same time or not)? The starting year/season and whether we look at calendar years or August-July seasons (or a mix as on Tom's thread) are probably the main things to decide.
Maybe for Tom's suggestion working backwards from 2016 is not a bad idea? But never going beyond 2016 so as to avoid what Peru was referring to. It could end up as a retrospective summary of great seasons from say 1917-2016 or something? (could be flexible on the start date but that'd be 100 years of course). Maybe taking the earliest option unless the later one was deemed truly superior (so Messi for 2011 unless 2015 was deemed superior say - wheras with the Wisden method I guess he's going in in 2007 or at least 2009)? So the question would be "has the player had a better year or comparably good one previously?" if working backwards. Then following the original Wisden method a new selection could be made every year going forwards too, and the start date is what needs deciding - whether that be 1950 or 1956 or 1930 or whatever. Maybe tending towards selecting established stars unless the case is exceptional (akin to Lara in 1994 - I guess that means Pele might get in in 1958 rather than waiting until 1961 or something)?
I think there are lots of ways we could go. I am happy to go with whatever people prefer really, but I would say we work forwards from whatever date we choose. Would 1900 be a good date? Might be quite a challenge but would be nice to cover some of the early figures of the game.
Correcting myself: it means 5 new names per year so counting from 1945 or 1946 onward, by 1948 it would already accumulate to 15 or 20 names. Yes then he's likely in by 1948 although I increasingly think those first few 'Europe rebuilding' years are quite hard (harder than most of the 1930s even), and in some cases with variable opposition.
I am good with starting all the way at 1872, if you start at 1900 you will likely miss most of the top forwards of the pre WWI time period.
The thing that might be hard about the chronological method is staying disciplined. With a player like Di Stefano you might be tempted to try to "save him" for the most appropriate year (57 or 60) when you should be just looking at the 5 most worthy and available players for a given year. He could end up being used in 1952 as the star of El Dorado.
I am going to start trying to make some headway with a hindsight method. The more input from others the better. I would also enjoy participating in a chronological method, would be an interesting challenge. Another player I will go ahead and add is George Best, as I feel it is very clear his signature season is 1968. 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1878 1879 1880 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1886 1887 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957: Alfredo Di Stéfano, 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962: Garrincha, 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968: George Best, 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016
Ok, well let's start with 1872 then. That gives completeness at least but may well be hard to get great coverage of. We'll need big contributions from @peterhrt and @lanman here. I think I'm going to get a copy of Association Football and the Men Who Made it. That might well be helpful for the process as well.
@PuckVanHeel What do you think Cruyff's best year should be? In my mind it is pretty split between two years 1972 vs 1974. 72 represents the peak of Cruyff with Ajax winning everything being domestic top scorer, scoring twice in the EC final, symbolically ending the catenaccio, peak total football etc. 1974 contained the two other biggest bullets on Cruyff's resume the great 1974 World Cup, and instantly taking Barcelona to the domestic title after a long drought. @Once @Pipiolo Maradona to me is a similar case. I could go with 1986 or 1987. 86 is there for an obvious reason, the World Cup. My one reservation is this seems like his most pedestrians year domestically in Serie A. 1987 one the other hand was his best club year, and fulfills the other major Maradona talking point, taking a relatively small club like Napoli and winning the double in the best league in the world.
A few more I feel I can add right off the bat. Platini seems a sure thing for 1984. He had his all time great Euro performance and won everything with Juventus. Netzer similarly seems to be clearly associated with one year, 1972, where he led Germany to possibly its highest and most pleasing levels of play ever winning the Euro, and was also German footballer of the year. Four of the greatest defenders all of time also seem to have pretty clear places. Beckenbauer is Beckenbauer because he captained Germany to the World Cup in 1974, Bayern also won the Bundesliga and European Cup. He may have some seasons where he was rated higher but what he accomplished in this year made his legacy. Baresi seems solid for 1990. Rated as the best player in the Serie A, led AC Milan to their second consecutive European Cup, and had an excellent World Cup. Maldini had a similar season in 1994 with an excellent World Cup supported by an emphatic European Cup and also winning the Serie A. Scirea also seems a sure bet for 1982, winning the World Cup with the iconic moment in the final. Also had one of his best seasons in the Serie winning the league and having one of his best rankings. 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1878 1879 1880 1881 1882 1883 1884 1885 1886 1887 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896 1897 1898 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 1914 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957: Alfredo Di Stéfano, 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962: Garrincha, 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968: George Best, 1969 1970 1971 1972: Günter Netzer, 1973 1974: Franz Beckenbauer, 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982: Gaetano Scirea, 1983 1984: Michel Platini, 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990: Franco Baresi, 1991 1992 1993 1994: Paolo Maldini, 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016