U11 top division girls match last night. One team (blue) is winless this year and is grabbing, pulling, retaliating, a lot of it behind my back, but I've instructed my ARs to call anything they see. LOTS of stoppages for nonsense. The team with the better record (white) is coached by my daughter's U14/U15 team, and I'm doing my best to be impartial. At the half, I'm talking to one AR, who's stopped play a couple of times for sneaky crap going on at the opposite end and I tell him if # 5,9,14,15 on blue do ANYTHING, no matter how small a foul, to stop play and they're getting yellow. He says "oh, they're all doing it, but the white team is more slick at hiding it, I wouldn't card anyone for small stuff." Which places the seed of doubt in my mind, which resulted in me allowing more than I would have normally. I learned valuable lessons last night. 1) If I am having a mental talk to remain impartial, step out and take the AR role. I've never had any issue with knowing people or reffing home club stuff, but I was a little too close to this one I think for me and my level of experience. 2) If I think it's persistent and deserves yellow, it's getting yellow. I shouldn't let anyone talk me out of it. It's my match and I can take input from ARs into advisement, but if I think they're wrong, then they probably are. Kicking myself today. The white team was by far the better team, but blue won on a GK mis-play. I shouldn't let it bother me, I called what I thought was a fair game, both teams playing very physically, but it's going to eat at me. Advice? Thoughts?
PI can be challenging -- and especially hard to comment on from a description. A few thoughts that may be helpful: PI is an offense by a particular player. So you want to be sure that player has persistently infringed in a meaningful way. You don't mention any conversation you had with the players. Before cautioning a player for PI, you want to give a warning to the player. "#10, that's your third foul this half [point to the spots of the fouls]; you need to knock off the fouls." You don't want to go from zero to giving a caution on any one of several players for PI -- a PI card should be expected by anyone paying attention when it comes out. Without knowing more, its hard to know if PI is really where you needed to go here. "Sneaky crap" and "grabbing, pulling, retaliating" at the opposite end of the field sounds a lot like USB - but hard to know without the details. If you have individual USB misconduct, don't wait for it to be repeated, caution (or at least lecture) for the USB. And consider telling the coach that you are concerned about the behavior. Physical young teams can be tough. Players are typically less skilled at adapting to the game being called. Players are often more willing to be physical than to have an opponent be physical. (And the parents . . . .) Players often have very different levels of tolerance. And players have less body control to go along with the physicality. Often talking to the players can help. If the AR is talking to you about things that you aren't seeing, I would be cautious about going to a caution if the AR who saw it doesn't see it as a caution. Again, tough to tell from a second hand description. But I wonder if you and the AR weren't on the same page as to what he was actually seeing.
Don't kick yourself - reflect and learn and LET IT GO! Letting it eat at you could lead to more indecision in your next match and indecision is bad. Being wrong is also bad but being wrong with authority is better than being indecisive. Everyone (players, "fans", coaches) picks up on indecision and will jump on you, making it worse. I am terrible at dwelling on stuff so I understand - talk it out (like you did here) find a local mentor/friend to review stuff with, again learn and move on!
Thanks, this is really good advice and pretty much sums up what happened. I figured a long, detailed description would be far too long. I'd had conversations with each of the players about what they'd done and they adjusted. It was really a difficult match because they weren't like most U11 games, where I can see most players at all times, keeping them between myself and the Ars, they were really spread out and playing the whole field. The retaliating was all behind my back. Ar told me that #8 was the one guilty and to keep an eye on her, but not to caution (which I didn't get an explanation for). The rest of the numbers were ones I'd warned, verbally and asked the ARs to pay particular attention to. I think we did a good job between the 3 of us, keeping each other apprised on what we'd been seeing for the most part. The AR who didn't want me to caution anyone was less concerned about PI than I was. I felt that had those particular players been warned and done anything minor they deserved the yellow. Thanks, again for the sound advice, I'll put it in my arsenal for the future. My worst enemy is being indecisive with authority. It's a rare talent. You're right, though. I think the hardest part is trying really hard to allow advantage and balancing what advantage means between a U11 match and a U15 match. I should follow the advice I give to my kids "If you think it's a foul, it's a foul, trust your gut."
I think most or all of us have been there, particularly when experiencing a level of physical play that we don't expect at the level of today's game, e.g. U-11 girls. I'm not hearing anything about the AR's. Experienced adults or newbie kids? Or something in between? That's certainly going to make a difference in the degree to which I rely on their advice. They are there to assist, not insist. You are the leader of the (temporary) team. Take charge, after getting input. You say that the bad actions were behind your back. So how did you know they were happening? AR flag? Players yelling? Parents yelling? Film on Sports Center? Apparently you stopped play long enough to go talk to the AR, which is a good thing. So, did the AR want a foul but no card? I'd like to know more about exactly what constituted "retaliation." In my mind, retaliation, at least as I define it, is going to get a caution every time. I think we do a disservice to the game and to the players, both offenders and victims, when we don't caution because we're afraid we'll ruin the psyche of the player who gets the card. It's simply a way of publicly saying, "I don't want to see that behavior again."
ARs both 17/18 Y/O, enough experience to trust. AR flagged me down for the first retaliation, gave the foul. He said "I'd give the free kick", so I left it at that. Retaliation was his word, but he said he didn't get the number of the player and couldn't point her out so I couldn't caution, so I gave a general "Let's play soccer, no more nonsense" type of warning to everyone. In short, I trusted their eyes to catch fouls in their quadrants and call them, but I didn't 100% trust their judgment on what constituted a cautionable offense. It made a difficult situation a bit more difficult. On top of that, it was our third match of the night, each of us getting CR work in. So I was able to get a clear picture of how their opinions went in general. The match before was really tough, I took AR1 because I figured could would be less likely to give me problems over a younger guy, and my ears are still ringing from all the screaming he was doing. It was a bit of a perfect storm. Previous match was high stress, one of us had to escort the ref from the adjoining field after his previous match and before ours started, then high foul volume game to top the night off. I think those fields are haunted.
This is the must-do protocol - inform assignor the incident first chance. Any reasonable assignor will take in all information. Official match report needed every time, right? If I did take no action, I write it up, with reason why. For instance, in the red card sfp incident, there must be lots of disagreement, right? If this is consider an emotional outburst, then that is how I write. If it happened that the offender's team were trying to intimidate by crowding, distracting, etc, then I also mention this in report and why I did not take action. For instance, it would have exacerbated situation that was already volatile, something like that. These are the matches where the fee is really earned, doing actual referee-work, making tough decisions, and all that buzz-words. No need to despair, this one is for the kit-bag, no matter what the final outcome. Worst case scene as cmonref mentioned, and the sun is shining somewhere.
First step would be a post-match debrief with the other two. For me, this is the rebuild-start. If they cannot / did not provide any points of value, then indeed additional cause for eating. It is always good to know their response when you inquire - so then why I am feeling like [insert term]? As you found, even players at G11 level will dish it out. Dont let them. The referee sets the parameters, not the players. To me, when referee makes playing environment such that players can display skills, tactics, techniques, then the outcome is decided by players. Perhaps this is the pinch point. In my matches, there will be more free kick awards in first half than second. I find this a very workable practice. I also keep record of fouls for teams. I recall seeing some posts with yellow cards shown and other metrics. For me, fouls per yellow is also a good metric to know. I do this before the match. Do the league have player/team disciplinary records? Then look at them. How did this team do last year/season? What opponent? This is pre-match preparation, already in your kitty. Then pull out tools when required. At end of match, lock up tool-kit with additional material. Repeat procedure.
I don't think this fits in the category of "fear" of showing a card, but I am second-guessing myself. U11G game, I am AR2. 0-0 at half, but is soon 1-0 yellow. Red attacker in front of me gets dispossessed of the ball by a pesky yellow defender who sends the ball forward. This happens a second time, but this time after the ball is cleared, the red player kicks the shinguard of the yellow player in frustration. The yellow player doesn't go down, not even a stumble. I quickly say just loud enough for the red player to hear "13, I saw that." She slumps her shoulders. I quickly think what to do. Pop flag and suggest red for VC? Yellow for UB? I elect to go with AC. The yellow player isn't hurt, not even phased. I tell 13 "If I see anything like that again, I'm calling the center over here and you will see a card." She said "Yes sir" in a remorseful way. The rest of the game sees no more issues. But this was the first of three games this team plays in the tournament. No idea if she did something similar in the next game. By itself, I think I was OK with my decision. I talked it over with the CR, who is really good. See my post in "Best story" thread. He agreed that what I did was fine. I guess YHTBT, but maybe a yellow was in order considering it was a tournament.
I am good with your decision. Only one question you need to ask yourself, was the kick careless, reckless or violent. From there you know what to do.
Yeah, in my experience girls in the U11-U15 or so range absolutely hate being publicly admonished, particularly by big mean men referees. You may not be able to do it as effectively as a AR, but if you stop the game, put everyone's focus on them and take the time to chew them out, it's often more effective than a caution without saying anything. No raised voice is required, just a stern look. My normal line for this is "That kind of behavior has no place in a soccer game. Do not let me see anything like that from you again, is that clear."
Good thing you don't work HS games in Massachusetts. If ANY coach is sent off (assistant or head) the game is immediately terminated and the team who lost its coach forfeits the game.
I imagine that cuts both ways. It may make coaches better behaved, but it probably inhibits referees from sending off coaches who are straddling the line of unacceptable conduct.
Dang. I would think that'd raise the bar for dismissing a coach significantly. How does it work in fact? Any idea whether it makes Mass coaches any better or worse behaved?
It creates a VERY high bar. Very few coaches are sent off, but that being said, a YC holds a terrific amount of power. I know the couple times I have received a YC that has shut me up quick (I coach boys varsity and referee girls games and boys games outside of my division). I certainly don't want to cost my team a game. There are two other MA rules that curb cards. The first is a rule that if a team is shown 5 yellow cards in a single game the match is immediately terminated and if that team is losing the score stands. If they are winning the game is forfeited and a score of 1-0 in favor of the team that was losing is recorded. I watched a team in a State Championship game play a very cautious 15 minutes after receiving their 4th YC up 2-0. The second rule states that any team who accumulates more than 13 YCs in the course of a regular season (18 games max - most teams play up to the max) is ineligible for the state tournament. This rule really limits the amount of cards that are issued. Referees shouldn't think of these rules when deciding whether something is cautionable or not, but the reality is that they do. We (coaches and referees) are trying to eliminate this rule as we feel it will clean up the game if we allow referees to caution more freely. The coaches still support individual penalties for YC accumulation during the season, but would like to see the team penalty eliminated or the 13 number raised significantly.
I took the advice you guys gave me from this past Wednesday and really applied it this weekend. I had a U13 boys match on Friday night and four U9-U11 matches on Sunday. Really helpful stuff and gave me a lot of confidence in myself and my control of matches. Thanks for that. After a conversation with one kiddo on Friday, I cautioned him and the game cleaned up quite a bit. one team was giving that little extra after the ball was gone and I kept calling it. Different players every time and each one as incredulous as the previous kid "What did I do?" On Sunday, a U10 kiddo does a full-on push from behind two steps after the ball has been passed. I stop play and caution the kiddo, explaining what he's done wrong and that it's just a big warning to not do it again. The kid is clearly already upset about something else and is taking it out on the field. He's tearing up, I do my best to assure him. Coach doesn't want to sub him, so we move on. I got to give out one of my extra yellow cards to him after the match. It was his first ever caution, coach says "He takes everything to heart." (don't they all?) So I write his name and number, type of caution, date and sign it for him. He didn't want it at first, but two minutes later he's proudly showing it off to the rest of the team. Happy days.
Wow! I thought the 24 YC during a season for WI was bad. Most teams play at least 22-24 matches a season. That is really handcuffing the official on how they manage the match. I mean in a D1 competitive game you might have at least one or two YC simply for tactical fouls. 13 is WAY too low IMHO. Makes officials need to use AC is their standard form of warning.
I have no flipping idea. But I can give out 13 YC's in a season of boys/girls HS games without blinking an eye...
Was at a tournament a couple weekends ago, pretty low level club teams, on a U12G game. Defending midfielder gets beat, attacking player gets through and is about mid attacking third, the defender trips her from behind in what I would consider a very clear tactical foul. YC comes out. Cue a tirade from the coach ... "I've been coaching for (can't remember the number) years and I've NEVER had a card given to 12 year old girls... great job ref, make it all about you." Girl of course comes out crying. As I'm AR on that side I try to make a few comments that it doesn't mean she's a bad person but that she just can't do that again. By the end of the game she seems better but coach still upset. I felt like I was in the twilight zone. I've given lots of cards to kids that age on higher level games. Coach acted like it was a U8 rec team game. The other AR was a young kid, should have asked him after the game if he was more or less likely to give the same card in the same situation if he was in the middle.
Had exactly the same experience a couple of years ago when I gave an obvious DOGSO red to a U12 girl. Really had me second-guessing myself -- but I find myself second-guessing a lot every time I do U12 and U13 games. It's that transition-to-the-real-Game thing I suppose.
I know you weren't the CR, but that statement from the coach, particularly if made publicly, should IMO result in immediate dismissal. It's a personal insult that completely undermines the authority of the referee.
At this level (which I presume is daddy coaches), I would not go straight to dismissal -- at least if the coach has not already been misbehaving. YMMV. But the R has to make clear that the coach is way out of line and the behavior must stop.
I have noticed that lower to mid level teams sometimes have coaches doing things that seem way out of place -- in a bad way -- at tournaments. Its like they are where everyone else was 15 years ago. Which they are.