European Superleague: what do you think

Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by Goforthekill, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    The Premier League isn't even six teams challenging its three, and once FFP comes in two of those Chelsea and City won't compete, so it'll be United's title in August.

    I'm a traditionalist, I'm not a lover of modern football, but I realise that football has changed so much that retaining a traditional league structure serves little purpose these days.

    It's pointless trying to keep everybody happy, because its not going to happen.

    There should be a Super League for people who want to watch it, and they could have smaller leagues for traditionalist.
     
  2. NuffSaid

    NuffSaid BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 14, 2012
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    You do realise dont you that Chelsea made a profit last season? There is a lot of talk about this FFP but I think you will find that Chelsea are now balancing their books - and do you honestly believe that Manchester City have not got any plans for after this comes into place?
     
  3. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    England
    First off, b-llocks. Chelsea have established themselves with enough revenue to sustain their level from this point forwards. The fact that you don't know this, is another indicator that you have a misguided, illogical perspective on this.

    Secondly, despite having fallen in love with the unpredictability that MLS enjoys via it's parity views, at this point I frankly hope it is United's title by March.

    Because as per usual, this isn't really about wanting to see the little guy win at all is it? It's not about parity or competitiveness. As this discussion has progressed you've shown more an more that this is all about you being an ABU.

    You don't give a toss that Abramovich's approach is far less competetive than any other that we've seen in history, you just want to see someone other than Manchester United win the league.

    For years, your ilk couldn't care less that I was a Man United fan. When Liverpool dominated, I took no crap for supporting United whatsoever. Then 1993 came and it was like a switch was flipped. Suddenly I was a "gloryhunter" despite following the same club my entire life, while plenty of kids were wearing Liverpool kits in PE.

    We got where we are by being a fiscally responsible club, with a great manager, who recognised the growing business end of the sport. We tried to maintain a conservative wage structure, despite losing out on the Batistuta's and Ronaldo's, until such time as players like Roy Keane talked about getting paid better elsewhere.

    The only debt we've had in modern times was placed on us by know fault of our own, due to the methods with which the Glazer family purchased the club.

    And yet a couple of billionaires swan in and even through a global recession they seek to price everyone out of the market and lock themselves into Champions League slots and how does the league react? They celebrate that a bankrolled team that is even harder for their club to compete with has beaten United to the league.

    I've been threatened, punched and even spat at because my club wins titles.

    Next time you blather on about the mean big clubs and their supposed monopoly on the game, ask yourself this: when all of your ilk despise my club, root against them at every turn, celebrate and laugh when we fail, all because we happen to have had a well run team with a great manager, why in the blue hell shouldn't we keep pursuing success and looking out for our own interests at the expense of yours?

    Part of me wants to say I hope a Superleague happens and that domestic football crumbles taking the ABUs and their clubs with it. But that would be a lie. I'm philosophically against such a league and for the sake of the game want to see a more balanced approach that fosters competition and growth for smaller clubs. You don't want that though. You just want United off the top by any means possible, even to the detriment of your own club.
     
  4. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    Right, you've had four days to remove this post, but since it's still here it's time for me to comment.

    "Anyone but United". If you genuinely believe that, and go voicing that opinion elsewhere, it's little wonder that you're on the receiving end of criticism or abuse.

    You're so far wide of the mark, it's laughable, but it also shows how detached from other fans opinions you are.

    I'M A TOTTENHAM FAN. Do you honestly believe that I'd prefer for Arsenal or Chelsea to win the league than Manchester United? Really?!?!?

    If I'm allowed to be biased (putting the good of English football aside for one second hear, and wearing my Spurs fans hat), of course I'd prefer United to win it than a London rival. Why wouldn't I?

    That said, that is my BIASED speaking, and I know that it isn't healthy for the sport in this country for a club to dominate like United do. Surely you can understand this, can't you?

    Forget about Manchester United. Forget about Manchester, their badge, and their red shirt. Let's call them Generic Super-club A (because that's all any of the biggest clubs are now - generic super-clubs - same goes for the terrible twins in Spain, and you're right, Chelsea, City et al.

    It's not about you, it's not about United, it's about not wanting to see any club dominate England for the rest of my life in the way that the biggest clubs have dominated abroad for 5o+ years.

    Nothing against United, as a Yid I'd choose United winning it over Mourinho's Chelsea or Wenger's Arsenal next season, but like I say, I'm biased (as you clearly are too), but I accept, that with United winning 12 from 20 or whatever it is (bored of it all now, it fades into monotony), and potentially the same return in the next 20 years it isn't healthy for England.

    Maybe the Spaniards, supporters of Atletico, Valencia, Sevilla, Bilbao are prepared to pay to watch that predictable rubbish every year, good for them, I commend them, but I'm not, not at fifty notes a match.
     
  5. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    England
    Actually it's not an opinion I throw around easily. But nothing you'be posted - nothing - has suggested a genuine interest in the good of the game.

    I've repeatedly tried to point out flaws in your proposals and steer the topic towards something more rational. Yet all I'be seen from you is this unsustainable idea that clubs be allowed to get bankrolled by owners with indefinite coffers of enormous wealth, or that the biggest clubs take off, which would be suicide for domestic football.

    If I have you all wrong I apologize but you'be just spent multiple pages citing my club as a problem for doing nothing more than being a well-run club and looking out for it's own interests. I pointed out that like Arsenal, we rose organically and that our success has been tied to the continuity of having an excellent manager for the best part of three decades.

    I genuinely believe that without City and Chelsea being bankrolled, we'd be on the verge of the most open title race in years. I sincerely hope that Bale stays and Spurs compete.

    However, your focus has not been a competitive league but a superficial changing of champions identity at any cost.

    You've repeatedly failed to see that though.
     
  6. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    I don't fail to see it at all. I agree with it, to bring about change will be superficial.

    It has to be. Football was superficially changed in the early 90s when they expanded the Champions League, started giving some clubs £25m per season to play in the competition just because they were more attractive to overseas TV audiences and UEFA wanted to guarantee that they'd qualify again and again.

    100% agree that in order to wash away what has happened in the last 20 years will take superficial change.

    Disagree that United & Arsenal are organic. They've been members of g14. Threatened to breakaway and form a super league in order for UEFA to expand the ECL, are happy to earn £25m per season whilst Europa League clubs average about £1.5m.

    It's about as organic as taking steroids.
     
  7. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    The big clubs. The elite. United, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc: they're juiced right up, don't you believe any different.

    They all poach players from smaller clubs catchment areas into their own academies. Probably run coaches from smaller nearby towns to their stadium on matchday. They're no more guilty than City, Chelsea, PSG, Monaco et al.
     
  8. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    England
    If Chelsea and Man City weren't owned by billionaires, Spurs would have more chance of getting access to that 25m themselves.

    Meanwhile, despite Liverpool qualifying repeatedly (and winning one) the competition for multiple consecutive seasons, they've been finishing lower than your team in previous seasons. So it's not quite the "closed shop" you characterise it as.

    As you've already said you'd happily embrace a billionaire owner buying your club success, I also doubt that you'd be complaining if you were a CL mainstay.

    As for the G14, it's biggest practical influence has been to ensure that all clubs are compensated for the use of their players in internationals. What they've actually ever said or "threatened" in terms of a Superleague has never been truly verified. We've seen conjecture and we've heard claims - mostly from UEFA - that they'd like their own league but we've also had denials from G14 (when it existed) that they have ever wanted to break away.

    The closest we've ever come is pie-in-the-sky "Brotherhood of the Glorious Pants Global Wish League" proposals from businessmen who largely have no links or connections to any club or often even the sport.

    Man United's success has come from being a well-run club, with a great manager whose longevity was assisted by bringing through a nucleus of players that straddled generations (most of whom were raised in Manchester btw - the only prominent exception was Beckham who was a lifelong United fan).

    The fact is, United played the same game as every club in the sport. They just did better at it. Spurs have no hesitation in weilding what influence they can to take talent from smaller clubs and those teams in turn do the same to those beneath them, all the way down the food chain.

    We've been on this path for decades. The one thread that remains consistent is that you're all fine with everything until your club is affected. I didn't see many Spurs fans complaining when they spontaneously made clubs like Leicester, Newcastle and Nottingham Forest weaker by signing their best players.

    If a billionaire walked into Spurs tomorrow, acquired Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar, would you be lamenting that yet another Super Club A had been formed, or would be jumping for joy?
     
  9. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    The title race is a closed shop, that's what matter. The title. Don't try to fob me off with 4th place. You don't get a medal for 4th in the Olympics so I don't see Spurs 2 x 4th place finishes as proof that it isn't a closed shop. It is. It's an exclusive members club where only MUFC, Arsenal, Chelsea and City and members and MUFC and Arsenal want to ban Chelsea and City.

    I couldn't give a toss about the Champions League. I want to win the Premier League, not just make up the numbers in the Champions League to boost profits. I'm not an Arsenal fan FFS.

    I don't even think non-champions should be allowed in the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE, that includes Tottenham. 2nd, 3rd, 4th should be UEFA Cup.

    They put a gun to UEFA's head. They said "give us more money than the rest of the clubs in our domestic league, so we can buy their players and they can never cathc us, otherwise we're off!".

    You wouldn't have been so dominant if you hadn't been pumped full of Champions League money, or stole supporters from other clubs catchment areas.

    A bit of both to be honest. A bit of both.

    Rather not have a billionaire, and turn the clock back to when football was proper, but that's not going to happen.
     
  10. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    England
    Are we disecting posts again. Okay. What I meant was that Liverpool had access the that Champions League money but then didn't invest it well, signing flop after flop, as Benitez falsely claimed he wasn't able to spend.

    By reaching the Champions League, you get access to the lucrative Group Stage, which boosts you financially and allows you attract better players.

    I'm not talking about making up the numbers. I'm talking about having the opportunity to the same purse as the rest of the qualifiers. That would improve your ability to complete.

    They actually did nothing of the sort. If Manchester United reach the quarter finals of the Champions League and so do Spurs, they get the same. The disparity is in the Market Pool portion of prize money. The teams from the biggest TV markets get that money. What they said was "Clubs from the Premiership, La Liga and Serie A, are a bigger TV draw than clubs from Finland and we should get a proportionate slice of the revenues UEFA are raking in".

    I personally think that's a stupid system myself, but you need to get your facts straight.

    Stole supporters? Like Man United are the only team that has OOT fans. I know more than a few Spurs fans who aren't from London and a few that started supporting them for Hoddle or Gazza. Every large club has that.

    As for the CL money, the success came first and the nucleus of the team from 1996 onwards (a good four years prior to the existence of the G14) were homegrown players from the immediate area.

    We also supplemented that with spending but so what? There have been plenty of times over the years when Spurs have spent vastly more than the teams below them.[/quote]

    Football hasn't been proper since clubs started paying each other small fortunes to transfer players from one another.

    I've already pointed out, quite painstakingly, that we've always been on this trajectory, that giant clubs have been dominant since before European competitions began and that many leagues were at this point a decade or two before England.

    At least when I lived in Great Yarmouth, I went to watch Great Yarmouth Town FC play. I share your concerns about the game but as I keep saying and you keep indirectly confirming, for you this is less about creating a competitive environment and more about Spurs chances of winning the league.

    Where were all these fans of English clubs forty years ago calling for change, while leagues like Spain, Italy, Portugal, Scotland, Germany, Turkey, Holland, Belgium, Hungary, Austria, were being dominated by the same teams year after year?
     
  11. LoveModernFootball

    LoveModernFootball New Member

    Oct 14, 2011
    Club:
    --other--
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aberdeen-stake-claim-place-new-2020819

    http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footb...xplore-european-super-league-option-1-2987226


     
  12. NuffSaid

    NuffSaid BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 14, 2012
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
  13. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    Yes I agree, but that would mean a club having to repeatedly finish within the 'top four' in order to eventually challenge for the title?

    Is that what we want? A closed shop 'top four'? You might. I don't.

    I don't belive that at all. It's well know that the G14 threatened UEFA, that if UEFA didn't make it easier for them to qualify, didn't make them richer than their domestic competition, that they would leave and form a Super League. United where one of these clubs.

    Don't agree with that either.

    All clubs should get the same.

    How are clubs supposed to compete if UEFA artifically make the biggest clubs richer and richer?

    UEFA are basically picking the clubs they want in the finals each year ('because they have the most glory-hunters and will get more TV viewers) and trying to starve the rest.

    More fake than American wrestling mate.

    Spurs aren't artificially pumped full of Champions League TV money.

    United are like steroid-assisted athletes.

    True. But not as dominant as they are nowadays. Its definitely got worse.

    You keep coming back with that, don't you?

    Well, it's like me saying that you're only in favour of FFP because it will hand United the title every season for the rest of your life and beyond, and that there will be no domestic competition for you to worry about?

    Under FFP more people will be interested in 2nd place, because 1st place will be United's in August before a ball has even been kicked?

    Is this why you're so in favour?

    Don't ask me, I wasn't around 40 years ago.

    In any case lots of foreigners are a bit weird. I read that in La Liga it's common to support your local club AND one of either Real Madrid or Barcelona!!!

    I dunno if that's true, but if it is then that's just wrong.

    Why should we moan and protest about foreign leagues though? Let the foreigner sort their own problems. If they don't like their leagues being dominated then don't go to matches. Don't buy shirts and let the popularity plummit.
     
  14. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    ...and UEFA picking and choosing which nations should have 4 enterants and which should have 1 isn't artificial?

    The whole ********ing Champions League is artificial.

    You've repeatedly failed to see that though.
     
  15. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    England
    I didn't say that at all.



    I don't care what you "believe". You weren't anymore privy to those discussions than anybody else. The fact is that UEFA and FIFA routinely rake in money off the backs of other people's achievements. Just look at the World Cup fiasco. Brazil will end up financially screwed while FIFA will make massive profits.

    At the most, the clubs raised that they had the capacity to make money outside UEFA, rather than letting them keep hold of the lions share of the cash, while the clubs were the ones putting the talent on the field and developing the players.

    It was leverage. Leaving UEFA carries it's own risks.

    I've already said I am AGAINST the Market Pool (which is where the difference lies), so I'm not sure what more you want me to say.

    However, the fact remains that Manchester United don't get anymore prize money for progressing in the Champions League than any other Premiership team. It's the smaller leagues that get shafted by this rule.



    No, just Premiership TV Money, which they fought for. Oh and they will also be able to get youth talent on the cheap now that the EPL clubs have leveraged circumstances so that transfers of young players between English clubs will no longer have the fee set by tribunal.

    Were you up in arms about that one? Or is it just where "superclubs" are involved that you take issue?

    Point being, it started a long time ago and was getting worse all the time. It didn't start being "a problem" among certain fans until they perceived it to affect their club.

    I'm not in favour, despite the fact my club may benefit. It's an inherently flawed system.

    I've stated that repeatedly, as well as my criticism of the CL prize money structure.

    So whereas your main target in all this seems to be Spurs capacity to compete, mine actually DO relate to competitiveness. That won't happen with random billionaire windfalls or a Superleague.



    So foreigners have a different cultural approach, so they are therefore "weird".

    How very "Little England" of you. You realise that a prime factor in ALL that you're complaining about stems from major clubs in leagues like La Liga and Serie A starting the approach of signing top-class internationals from around the world, going back decades? Other clubs gradually had to start following suit to stay in contention.

    But lets not worry about the big picture and focus on Spurs being able to win a title, even if it is in a domestic feeder league with nothing but farm talent and semi-retirees.

    The more you reveal, the more your stance smacks of an "I'm alright Jack" mentality. You make out that you have concerns for football but it really IS just about the stuff that affects your club.

    And now the crowning glory. The revelation that you don't understand how UEFA Champions League and Europa places are determined!

    They don't "pick and choose" anything of the sought. It's determined by five-year European performances by leagues and clubs. Google UEFA Coefficients. If the League of Wales suddenly started producing clubs that won European trophies, they would move up the rankings and get more places. Notice how Serie A dropped to three entrants recently?
     
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  16. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    Those smaller leagues would be pointless... Death of domestic football.
     
  17. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Country:
    England

    I would guess what he's getting at is the whole concept of the champions league format. It is designed to get as many clubs from bigger nations in as possible, to give them as much money as possible, and with the group stage, make it as hard for them to get knocked out early as possible.

    In many ways a lot of the problems we have today, in the champions league and domestically, were the result of tv money distribution rules being invented when tv money was a much smaller percentage of income than now.

    The top sides have always had an advantage. I don't think anyone really has a problem with that, and the sort of parity seen in US leagues doesn't really appeal to that many. On the other hand there does seem to be a growing recognition that giving clubs who already have a big advantage extra money which will make them even more dominant, does not seem the best way of doing business.
     
  18. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    They're arguably dead already, aren't they? Most of them are completely predictable and serve little purpose.

    Take Ukraine.

    Over the last twenty years dominated exclusively by two clubs: Shaktar Donetsk and Dynamo Kiev.

    A merged Russian and Ukrainian league would be an far better.
     
  19. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    What you've said it 100% right.

    League's need more successful clubs. They need villains. It's what MLS is lacking.

    The problem is, that European football has gone to far in the opposite direction. Leagues completely dominated by a handful of superclubs. 99% of overseas or 'new' supporters jumping on the bandwagon of these few clubs and making them even more wealthy and even more dominant.

    It's about a happy medium really, but we've gone too far nowadays.

    The squad sizes don't help either. The bigger clubs stockpiling talent means that it's denying supporters of smaller clubs their star players when they're only sitting on the bench or in the reserves at some superclub.

    As I said, restricting expenditure without first looking at how the wealth is distributed will lead to loads of problems in years to come.

    Fans aren't thick. They'll realise soon enough (if they don't already) that under FFP it's just lock all clubs in position forever more, and interest in all clubs but for the very biggest, wealthiest will diminish.
     
  20. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    You're making yourself sound silly. Can you have a discussion with somebody without making accusations, trying to prove your superior intellect or trying to belittle people?

    Just accept that my opinion is different to your. Accept that not all fans are the same and that they enjoy different things about the sport and that they don't all love the way the game is developing.

    Of course I understand about the market pool, Uefa coefficients etc, but that doesn't mean I agree with them.

    Uefa are just in bed with the biggest clubs from the biggest leagues because having them in the competition makes it easier to sell TV rights in glory-hunter countries.
     
  21. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    First of all, Ukraine and Russia arguably hate each other. Secondly, in case you missed it, there is now Metalist Kharkiv that actually pushed Dynamo into third, so ukraine now has three top clubs and Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk is not much farther.

    Thirdly, in every country, there is always a competition who is the best club in that country. That competition is still alive.

    And your suggestion that the domestic competition is somehow dead is simply wrong.
     
  22. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    That's not what MLS is lacking. MLS is lacking good players, club traditions, promotion/relegation, fan interest, establishment interest, player development, good defense, good offense. I tried to get into that for the brief duration of Miami Fusion's existence. The league was unwatchable then and when I saw two or three matches last year - it was still unwatchable.
     
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  23. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    England
    COYS

    I've tried having a reasoned discussion with you and got nothing but massively flawed arguments, hypocritical criticism of practices by big clubs that your own indulges in and proposals that would be disasterous.

    You've also roundly focused on the team I support rather than 50% of what I've posted.

    And now the one league that tries to deliver what you want MLS is being criticized. Any of you who find it unwatchable yet bemoan super clubs are hypcrites.
     
  24. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    Haha. You've tried to convince me that my opinion is wrong and that yours is right, and as you've failed I must be at fault. Is that right.

    If that's what your believe, that other people aren't entitled to have alternative opinions to yours nor are they allowed to express them and if they have a 'flawed argument' (all in your opinion, of course) then you're in need of mental help.

    Bet you're right good company in your local pub, eh? Little wonder you've been abused and threatened really with your attitude.

    Mate, just accept that what you want out of football isn't what other people want, and that it isn't the end of the world, nor does it make them wrong that they disagree with you.

    I've not criticised MLS at all. I think MLS is a well-run league. Two of my favorite blogs are Zach Slaton's and Dave Hornby's.

    I think the Americans do a better job of running their sports than the FA or UEFA.

    People talk about the Americanisation of football like it's a bad thing, but I'm all for it. Give me that rather than the globalisation of the sport which is what UEFA are pushing for.

    Stop being such a drama queen, and trying to blow things out of proportion.

    Saying that I enjoy a nice meal now and again isn't saying that I believe in eating until my stomach explodes, so stop your exaggerations and drama, and comment on what people actually write, and NOT what YOU THINK they are writing.
     
  25. COYS

    COYS Member

    Jul 29, 2008
    London
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    England
    Wow.

    Mate, two clubs have shared the league between them every year for twenty years. It's the SPL of the east.

    Moldova. Great league. Sheriff Tiraspol almost finished 2nd once. Righto.
     

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