European Championship players of the tournament 1968 - 2006

I thought I'd get the Van Basten vs Germany video up that you did Puck while I give my thoughts, as people might not realise about your account on Dailymotion and the same isn't available in this case on Youtube:

I can't recall whether you mentioned if you'd cut out any of his touches (any misplaced passes etc) - obviously you included some play from other players but I suppose it could make a slight difference if he gave the ball away a bit more than I realise or something - maybe you did include all his touches but certainly most of them anyway I know.

So with some caution, pending confirmation about what else if anything he did, I am thinking of about 9.2 out of 10 for that display I feel (doubt it could conceivably go below about 8.8 once you do give confirmation). His touch was generally really assured and even at times sensational/exceptional for a centre-forward (for someone who plays that position, and considering the way a centre-forward has to receive the ball compared to a midfielder). And I think what is really evident is that his brain is working really sharply too, and without rushing things he is managing to decide what he is doing and pull if off efficiently and accurately very often. And he usually answers the question "does he do something positive?" in the affirmative, with the occasions he turns over possession generally being times when his attempt fails marginally but was a good call and not with a huge chance of success (if that's not a contradiction - I'm thinking of things like a header back across goal that the GK intercepts, or an attempt to play a ball through that nearly puts a team-mate in on goal for example). There are at least a few occasions where his use of the ball is really good, and he lived up to his complete centre-forward billing in that game I'd say. The one time he got tackled dribbling could have been costly I guess but surely not worth too much weight, and his control before that and crucially before the penalty call too, was excellent. The winning goal is an obvious plus ofc, in importance and execution.

 

Thanks, seems like I wouldn't have any reason to change my impression then in the other few moments. I'd better check with you what might be missing for other games I suppose when I get to them, but again I guess it'd be nothing significant and I have seen the games including recently too.

The one where Matthaus goes on a run towards the box I think isn't it? Could be a foul maybe, and I wasn't criticising the decision or riskiness really but just thinking that if anything that sort of moment has to be something that could potentially reduce a rating wheras if the dribble had gone differently it could even be the opposite.

 

I think all 3 of these players had less good finals overall as compared to the semis (I'll need to re-watch the whole final for Zidane's performance though I think, wheras I can see Platini's touches on Youtube)....

Here is the video for Van Basten (thinking not much is missing here re: his touches Puck):

He had a less slick and precise game in general I'd say, perhaps due to being less fresh to an extent, and he probably had a bit less good ball coming towards him making his involvements a bit more scrappy too especially in the first half where I think his play after his headed assist for the opening goal was generally improving. Still some good centre-forward hold-up play, some good touches and bringing of others into the play, and an occasion where he shows good skills before shooting without success. And then there is what I think is genuinely one of the best goals of all-time, and other little pieces of quality like the backheel to Wouters. It sort of reminds me of Bergkamp vs Argentina in 1998 if I'm thinking of a comparable performance, but I'll say 7.6 out of 10 which if anything is edging towards the conservative side but is still obviously factoring in how brilliant his goal was and the fact he had a goal and assist in a 2-0 win.

For Platini I'll say 7.2 - varied display with a few mistakes or inaccurate contributions, but also some good play in midfield and a couple of quality incisive forward passes in there. The free-kick goal is on target but requires a slip from the goalkeeper of course.

So according to how I was lining up the France Football scale for World Cup matches to marks out of 10 I'd have both Platini and Van Basten's final games down as 4/6 I think (but the former closer to a 3, and the latter a more reasonable call for a 5 potentially).

 

Well when I say recent I mean a lot more recent than 1988 (certainly in the time I've been on Big Soccer)! I think I have Van Basten in the range of 7.6 to 8 for that game anyway, so can go on the lower end to match going on the higher end of my estimation (after you confirmed very few more bad touches, and a few more lay-offs) with 9.2 for the Germany game (with feasible range seeming 8.8 to 9.2 probably).

You feel Platini is worth a bit more for his Final? I guess that will end up the game I rate the lowest for him, given what he did in the group - maybe that itself is not so surprising but I guess you feel his positive contributions were noteworthy?

 

I'm thinking if I try to look into other players it could be Tigana for 1984, and Muller (but might as well make it Netzer and Beckenbauer too in that case) for 1972. But not sure if it's possible to the full extent or if I'll end up spending the required time to do that.

 

Van Basten vs England:

I think I'm settling on 9.3 out of 10 for that performance which would put it in between Eusebio vs North Korea (which I have 0.1 higher) and Pele vs France in terms of World Cup games I picked out as exceptional performances and graded on the same scale, and in which the player concerned had a big effect on the scoreline with goals. Maybe I would give Zidane vs Dynamo Kiev 97/98 about or exactly the same grade as another example that comes to mind having been discussed recently - his 3 contributions to the scoreline being assists and outside of that probably a few more creative contributions but also a few more losses of possession compared to Van Basten while his first time pass assist would be equivalent to the exceptional first goal by Van Basten. Van Basten perhaps not quite so involved or precise/sharp overall as vs Germany but I feel close and with better stand-out moments and just as key to the result.

At the same stage Platini played Belgium and also scored 3 goals. I think I have it as his best performance all things considered, even though the free-kick goal vs Yugoslavia was a higher quality goal than he scored vs Belgium and his goals were more crucial to the result vs Yugoslavia. In the Belgium game he did play a few nice balls that might have been made more of, as well as occasional good incisive ground passes to advance play and trademark long passes (as he did vs Yugoslavia). Also some good skills and imagination to earn space at times, but as vs Yugoslavia slightly mixed overall and with the goals as best or most significant contributions. He scored a goal more, but compared to Rivaldo 1998 vs Denmark which I scored as an 8.9 out of 10 performance, I'm feeling I'd put it slightly below due to more variability in the performance and being less key to the result. So in summary I'll go with 8.8 out of 10 as my call for Platini vs Belgium (probably behind other borderline top 20 WC performances I had in mind like Pele vs Czechoslovakia 1970, Kempes vs Netherlands 1978, Cubillas vs Scotland 1978 for example too).

 

Just telling things a bit, the Belgian had a totally unusual defence in that game against France at the Euro '84. But that's just a parenthesis. Naturally, many teams had "problems" when...beaten. I understand it's a list with no end if we start discussing this.

 

Yes, it did end up as an 'easy' game for France really. Again, I might try to get more of a definite view on Tigana's performance in that game too sometime.

I'm feeling in terms of single performances over 90 minutes Platini did have games he played better in (some I'm aware of - big games or not so big, others likely too from games I'm partially or not aware of) than in any Euro 84 game, in terms of creativity but also consistency. But he was still making the difference for his team and providing a major cutting edge, and overall if I ended up giving him a similar or slightly lower average rating than Van Basten I could still be of a mind to rate his tournament slightly higher (guessing that might not be the case but still games to go - Van Basten not playing so many full games might be offset slightly by the 'disadvantage' of not having long to impress or certainly achieve a high match rating vs the USSR in the group)

 

I suppose the Belgium game was at least still important in terms of qualifying from the group too, wheras the Yugoslavia game wasn't and in fact it seemed likely France would top the group even if they lost I suppose. So maybe that puts things into context regarding Platini's match winning hat-trick vs Yugoslavia, although primarily I'm looking at the performance anyway and not the circumstances so much.

 

Yes, me too definitely. Maybe harsh to say Gullit should have done better (could have - yes, and maybe if he'd not shot first time even) but that whole piece of play was pure quality from Van Basten IMO as was his first goal especially.

I think what you said re: Platini/Yugoslavia, that's right - the perspective of how he affected the match would be clearer in real time I would say although maybe then it's even easy to over-praise such an impact beyond the actual contributions in the heat of the moment to some extent. But yes, it must be worth something that he can seize the moments as he did, and talking of pure quality like I say I think his nonchalant free-kick fits that bill. I do think I probably have to give his match no less than 8.6 (averaging 8.7 over those two games seems fairly reasonable in my mind anyway).

 

It was important to win all the matches...including the one against Yugoslavia. For the dynamic. Yugoslavia caused problems to France...they were eliminated but played this last match for real...until Platini "calmed them down" so yeah of course it is a great performance for all of that. Yug. was better offensively than defensively though, as often (but here it's special circumstances too, they were finally here to play fully the attack, that was the only and the better strategy). Without Platini there's good chances Yug. wins it and maybe the continuation in the competition is not the same. Already if Platini doesn't score in that very first match against Denmark...it's a bit more complicated. Anyway he has been decisive in every match.

 

Yes, in terms of momentum I see what you mean and ofc I suppose it was possible for France to finish 2nd in the group (in the end they had an easier game vs Spain than Portugal anyway, but hard to say how things pan out had they lost 4-0 to Yugoslavia and finished 2nd say).

I feel like more than 8 out of 10 can be awarded (according to my idea) based on the final quality and decisiveness as here vs Yugoslavia, or on the general quality and influence with perhaps added bonus of some contribution in moves that lead to goals or something (as Platini would have in various games, or as example Maradona vs South Korea or Bulgaria in WC86). For 9+ out of 10 I suppose I'm looking for both to a good extent (even if one more than the other) or one to a brilliant extent. But yes, in real football, although these grades should approximately match with usefulness in winning games on average, the important thing is winning the games (and also things like playing well/entertaining/harmony etc) and over the tournament Platini's goals made a very big contribution to that, and I think he did play at least some passes that could have resulted in goals (so assists/pre-assists) on another day and had some good moments in terms of ball retention skills and clever play even if he might not have been at his best or extremely consistent with this or his passing/creating IMO. But his role for Juventus, such as shown vs Man Utd, was more as creator too, while (as babaorum explained once and we can see, his role for France in the Euros was varying a bit between and during games I should add here too) for France he was required more to be the scorer and he could leave the build-up work to be done by Tigana and Giresse moreso - it seems Hidalgo had adopted that idea more for 1984 than 1982.

 

I think for the sake of my average ratings I will give Van Basten 6.2 out of 10 for that appearance in the first group match (maybe seems harsh if anything but excluding the game would be more unfair to others who played all games I'd say, and would make it be even further away from any sort of applicable comparison to the top World Cup tournaments of star players who mostly made it very far in the competition).

He probably benefitted from being able to get on the pitch, and having got into the swing of things a little, in terms of his performance in the next game vs England. He was involved quite often, and getting a feel for the ball but like you say Puck if anything the fact the play was a bit more direct in general in that scenario when he came on, wasn't ideal. I'd say there is more positive than negative, but a few slightly wayward contributions too. Maybe seems harsh to score lower than Messi vs Bosnia in a way (given what I felt about that, especially in the first half) but given Messi's eventual contribution to the scoreline and in general moreso by the end, it would seem more wrong to give this game a higher grade I think - if Van Basten had played more of the match who knows, but by the same token (missing opportunity for further cumulative contribution, and basically not playing nearly a full game) Messi vs Nigeria was a performance I'd be holding back as 8+ out of 10 and who knows if I'd have made it 9+ more in the Van Basten vs England territory if he'd stayed on - with similar or improved performance/contribution perhaps there'd have been scope for that (his scenario in that game sort of matches Platini vs Yugoslavia I guess after 2 group game wins already for Argentina).

 

I'm fairly unsure/torn on Platini vs Denmark - waivering between more than 8 and perhaps less so I'll come to the conclusion that a straight 8 out of 10 might be the best call (and perhaps a 'good' 4/6 bordering on a 5/6 if I'm remembering correctly how I was adjusting my scores for France Football's scale which was neither on a strict % basis and nor would it be fully compatible with FF's own grades and the marks out of 10 awarded by Italian publications - I have less very high 6/6 games I'm sure but I guess more 9+ out of 10 games than typically awarded by the Italians - as we see with DBS Calcio etc they are typically less easy to please so to speak with league games too as compared to publications of other countries historically).

For activeness/sharpness it was maybe his best game even, and his touch and brain were working well too. He also made defensive contributions. And he also scored the game winning goal, and took the chance sharply even if yes the deflection might not always have placed the ball in the net.

So over the 5 games I have an average rating for Platini of 8.2. Not fully comparable to the World Cup, but that would be behind what I gave Maradona and Cruyff, but possibly not behind anyone else IIRC. I need to re-examine what Van Basten was doing vs Ireland finally now. And then I'll see later what else I might be able to look at for Zidane/Tigana/Muller etc. For Dzajic I can't really look at more than I already have I don't think, so not possible to try to award average grades in the same way. Maybe I could for the likes of Figo/Totti/Henry for Euro 2000 or Suker/Sammer for Euro 96 but that might be going beyond what I'd like to do - we'll see later in the year what I have done I suppose.

 

I'll give Van Basten 7.3 for his performance vs Ireland:

His role as centre-forward was generally executed well and usefully and with the added bonus moments where his skill and capabilities came into play. I'd say he had good rather than brilliant moments, and on the flip side a few average/marginally off bits of play moreso than any poor spells or clear mistakes. Both in the first half and second the occasional glimpse of a good incisive contribution, and then 3 moments where his rating and the scoreline could have improved (not the first really for the first moment as his involvement would be no different and that should somewhat apply to the second too - but let's say he'd obviously be more remembered)...
- The wingplay and cross that Erwin Koeman headed slightly wide
- The high boot call against him to deny him a goal (as an English fan that seems never a foul but I remember there used to be lots of talk about high boots being default fouls on the continent and the refereeing being different in that way - I presume in Austria also which is where the referee of this game is from, and perhaps Uefa wanted the law like that in their competition although I'd say that I don't see a difference between this play by Van Basten and Savicevic's before his famous lob goal vs Barcelona in the 1994 CL Final)
- The control, twisting and turning and pass to Wouters which was nearly brilliant and could have led to a goal, if the pass had just been slightly better placed.

I think in hindsight, while keeping the Germany display as 9.2, I'll raise his final display vs USSR to a 7.8. For his 4 full games that'd make my average score for him 8.4 out of 10, but with the first game added in too (with full weight rather than half weight as that's not a concept others apply) that'd reduce to 8 out of 10 rounded up. So in the same ballpark as what I have for Platini overall I think. I still feel slightly tempted to choose Van Basten's as the better tournament (and am somewhat inclined to reduce Platini vs Denmark to 7.8 anyway to match Van Basten's final and approximately one of Messi's displays in the Copa America, and be just slightly above what I had for Messi vs Switzerland in the World Cup - and that would make his average 8.16 but that isn't much of a change; as an aside I might go with 8.7 for both Platini's Belgium and Yugoslavia performances after thinking about it again). But the statistical case is still with Platini even if the magic moments favour Van Basten and his semi-final and final I rate higher than Platini's respectively. Close call just as with Maradona/Cruyff in the 1986 and 1974 World Cups for me (though there Maradona has both the stand-out moments as bonuses beyond the game they happened in, plus the latter stage performance impact, so it's more clear perhaps to raise him over Cruyff who's key stats are not better even if he was a more frequent chance creator - those stats matching my impressions in this instance).

 

I suppose to some extent, but maybe more subconsciously than specifically trying to account for it (feeling I'll sense if certain plays or general play requires more brilliance to achieve the same in particular games). The Final is of course the Final, but to a large extent the major moments are what make me give that a higher rating (and to a further extent added weight to his tournament as a whole too as I say).

We don't seem to see things majorly differently then (I'm obviously working to my own scale of ratings from the WC, so whether your idea on that completely matches even though we're using marks out of 10, is doubtful to an extent obviously just as mine doesn't match with La Stampa's probably exactly). Platini higher in the Final for you I think, and maybe vs Yugoslavia (or maybe you just see it as better than his Belgium game but not necessarily much higher in it's own right). And I don't know whether you'd rate MvB's England or Germany performances slightly lower at all (you did like my first post including the response about the Germany game but that doesn't signify you'd give the same rating ofc) as well as the Final overall. If there's any such movement then I guess your ratings would favour Platini slightly indeed, without as I say having a majorly different overview or impression.