ESPN FC's MLS player survey – has refereeing got better or worse?

There is no point in asking players for their opinions on refereeing. Most players are not the sharpest tools in the box. It is like asking turkeys for their opinions on Thanksgiving. Nothing meaningful can be obtained.

PH

 

At first glance, I thought these were the two most interesting thoughts:

1. "They don't need to be a--h---- for no reason. Some guys won't even talk to you. We understand that they make mistakes. This is a game of mistakes. But if they knew how to manage players better and talk with them, players would appreciate it, and they'd be more successful."

I don't think I'd be going out on a limb by saying he's referring to Rivero.


2. 88% surveyed say Designated Players get preferential treatment.

Apparently, the 12% surveyed who said "no" or "no comment" were Designated Players.

 

I don't necessarily agree with that...the idea that nothing meaningful can be learned is part of the attitude that makes them think the situation doesn't improve.

The whole survey has some very interesting responses...at least the ones that were released anyway.

 

We already know how most of them view officials. Necessary evils who don't understand the game. It is extremely naive to think that anything good can come from a survey like this. Having been around pro players for more years than I care to count, I think I know of what I speak.

Nonsense! What is learned that is really meaningful as far as improving refereeing is concerned?

May be interesting, but meaningful such that anything can or will be done about it, no. Players are always looking for a way to get an edge, and this can include from the referee. That is all most of them are interested in.
I know the Pollyannas out there would like to believe otherwise, so go right ahead and let me know when this kind of survey helps refereeing. It hasn't done so far!

PH

 

Yeah, as a non-ref/non-player, you sound like an egotistical idiot. Of course you can learn something from people who are, essentially, co-workers. Just because the customer care people at my job have no idea how the technology I help create works doesn't mean there aren't valuable lessons in how we work together. To believe otherwise is myopic.

 

Egotistical maybe, but far from idiot! I am confident in what I believe.
Show me the valuable lessons with real improvements that come out of a ridiculous survey like this one,
and perhaps I'll change my mind.
Working in an environment like yours in a totally different area, of course you can improve things by this sort of thing.
Professional soccer and the interactions between the players and referees is totally different to a normal workplace.
It is an adversarial relationship, but I don't expect a couch blogger, non-ref, non-player to fully understand this. You have to have been there.
Thanks for the insight!

PH

 

I mostly agree with PH. Asking the players doesn't tell you if the refereeing is actually better or not. At all. But, tracked from year to year, if it is a proper sample, it can tell you something about changes in the relationship between referees and players. A better relationship is a good thing -- as long as it is not generated by bastardizing the game to make the players happy. (Though, frankly, I'm not sure that behavior actually makes the players happy in the long run, but that's a separate discussion.)

But let's not kid ourselves. As far as I can tell, this is not a scientific poll conducted by Gallup, but an entertainment poll conducted by ESPN to generate more clicks and thereby more ad revenue. I'm not convinced we actually learn anything from this poll a it pertains to referees.

 

I think if you took a poll of the average employee you'd find that the majority of them feel they have an adversarial relationship with their managers. Furthermore, many managers are in a similar position to referees: they're responsible for enforcing rules and maintaining the integrity of the business while at the same time not necessarily being experts in the actual task their employees are performing.

And your confidence has little to do with how competent you are. In many cases there is an inverse relationship between the two.

 

Maybe in many cases, but not in mine. I can prove that in my case it is a non-inverse relationship. I have been very successful in most endeavors I have been involved in, probably in all actually, and especially in football activities.

PH

 

Now you're moving the goalposts. Your original post started that refs could learn nothing from players, not that this survey was useless. I won't argue there's value in this survey, I agree, it's probably so poorly planned out that nothing can be gained from it. That doesn't mean that refs can't learn anything from players at all though, which is what you initially stated (though maybe that wasn't your intent).

 

Nice try, I did not and have not moved any goalposts; of course I was referring to the survey in my initial post, that is the subject of the thread. It is well known among experienced referees that during a particular match a referee can obtain information from the players, but more indirectly by clever observation, not by asking them for their opinions and input. Certainly not from this ill-conceived, totally unscientific survey.
In fact you moved the goalposts by a ridiculous extrapolation to a totally different workplace environment out of which I might expect some improvements to come for working relationships in your or a similar company.

I don't expect anything from that survey or others like it, and I don't think that realistically anyone else should either.

PH

 

I agree that the survey is a waste of time, but I don't think you should be 100% dismissive of the comments the players make.

I think something can be learned and gained from a comment like this. There can be some incite gained from this.

1. "They don't need to be a--h---- for no reason. Some guys won't even talk to you. We understand that they make mistakes. This is a game of mistakes. But if they knew how to manage players better and talk with them, players would appreciate it, and they'd be more successful."

For me, the more interesting aspect of the survey is who the players think is the dirtiest player in the league. I think referees can gain a lot from looking at that. It's no surprise that the guys that pretty much are a constant on Instant Replay week in and week out are at the top.

What I find incredible is that that the players have caught who are the dirty players, but not really the referees.

Chara, Alonso, Watson, Felipe Martins, Dempsey, etc. are always in the middle of something but almost never get sent off...

That is something that the referees should pay attention to.

 

Player management is a topic that has been covered ad nauseum at referee clinics for decades, particularly at the pro level. There are articles in referee magazines and entire sections in books devoted to it. Some guys are good at it, others are not. This is what makes the difference between a top referee and the rest of the pack. The ones who are not good at it never will be, they just don't have the right type of personality. Nobody at this level needs players to tell them this, it is not exactly a novel idea. It is pure naivety to think this is new.

The referees know also, all this is discussed at the training sessions. It is not lack of knowledge that is causing
them not to get red cards. We have discussed this topic for years. We all know what the real reason is, especially you!
Hopefully the insight will incite referees to do a better job.

PH