PBP: EPL - Manchester United FC vs Manchester City FC - Dec 10, 2017 [R]

Jose got his tactics wrong today. We should have gone with a 352 and just started Martial up top with Rome.

 

The biggest problem is we still get dominated by every big team. Chelsea, Arsenal, City and pool dominated the ball against us and created plenty of chances. Even Spurs had better control and movement than us at OT. All of which begs the question - Why, after a year and a half, cant we pass and move the ball around with confidence? Why are we still mostly relying on individual darting runs..that bypasses the need to work as a team?

When we park the bus we have 0 offence on counters. And when we try to play more forward players...the defence and mid fallback creating gaping spaces in the middle and little chance to play anything but hoofball to an inneffective Lukaku. We have no coherent team play and until we do we can never mover forward. Sure we will win games against lesser teams because of individuals with room to play...but any half decent team arrives and we either win or draw by the skin of our teeth (defence has not been great)...or complete fold, aimlessly kicking the ball away for large chunks of the game.

It's not a surprise we lost against City, because they all know the game they are playing and how to pass and move with confidence. Our players still look lost, not knowing whether to run into space , or defend their spot. I don't really know what kind of team Jose wants us to be....because we have so far failed at ultra defensive, counter, attacking against any decent team.

It was a huge ask anyway, because from the remaining games I can still see us dropping way more points than City, so getting 9 points was unrealistic for where we are as a team....but it is definitely over after today's result. Really poor show all round.

 

Don't understand why you are so intent on giving Jose a pass for today. I'm not one of those who constantly bags on him, but it's not hard to see that he was poor today. His tactical choice for starters was shyte: if he wanted to be overly defensive and let City come at us, he should have played 3 at the back with Lindelof in there. At least, his ability with the ball at his feet could have brought something to start something from such a deep position.
Second, City showed once again today, how vulnerable and mistake prone they can be when they're attacked: why not try to have a real go at them (especially at home in a must win game)?
And finally, his subs were wrong and ill timed as well: Lingard shoud not have been subbed off. Herrera since he was not in a man marking function, served no purpose, especially after going behind. Zlatan coming on with 15mins left, after being left off the 2 last squads, boggled the mind.
Jose got so much wrong today and was decisevely outcoached by Pep. The result ultimately definitely falls on him and any criticism is warranted for today. There is nothing wrong with saying that...

 

That's what I was calling for pregame and would have been fine playing Lukaku with Martial up top. Would actually rather have Rashford in reserve and fresh in the second half, going after a City defense with 45-60mins in their legs already.
Jose just got so much wrong today and he's align about the Pk call not given. Still on the fence about that, but it clearly was not the difference: a 1-2 loss is flattering in regards to what we saw today...

 

When did Herrera go from being a pretend hard man that put in solid tackles to the diving little bitch that he's been lately?

 

Needed Pogs badly today.

Despite not scoring recently Lukaku has at least had a few assists, trouble was his two assists today were for the wrong team ...

 

Time to drop Lukaku and start Rashford up top

 

Earlier in the season I mentioned he wasn't clinical enough and got blasted for saying another striker given those chances would have a better goal tally. I exaggerated the tally but people missed the point.

Now it's almost halfway through the season and he has gotten worst.

 

Very irritating to watch and listen to........I do kind of think that Rashford deserves to start, which was why I linked to this. Because he's that good, btw, nothing about Lukaku.
1) We'll never get any advantage from a referee so long as they're rewarded for doing the opposite. There's no fear of being sent to ref a lower league game for a red card given to our players. Yellow card for diving to our player? No sweat. No problem.
2) Watching how many dangerous chances City had versus us, it's unfair to blame our fwds for not converting, imo. Whoscored has apparently crashed under the strain, so I don't have numbers, but City scored 2 goals with approximately (my guess) 70% possession and 3000 corners (numbers are an estimate). We scored 1 goal with players being hacked down left and right and, iirc, a total of 2 corners and 1 dangerous free kick.
3) We have Pogba, a phenom, and all the midfield non-Pogbas, who aren't even close. So Jose has to have at least 2 ways of playing -- one for when Pogba is available and one for when Pogba isn't playing. Maybe the plan should be to get someone else with a similar style in as a backup. The players we have now aren't those type, apparently. Or maybe the plan is to have the players play 2 different styles, and they're just not quite there yet.
4) The defense played their hearts out today, I thought. Never thought I'd see the day when Ashley Young was a hero, but he is.
5) The subs didn't help. Don't know why, didn't change things, and didn't make any noticeable impact.
6) Being tall doesn't help us. We just get cards for it. Lukaku's big and apparently nothing ever done by a defender counts as a foul against him.
To conclude -- Boo! Hiss!

 

More excuses!!!!
With all these excuses after poor performances a movie can be made the same length as the Titanic and Avatar movies combined

 

Reports of an altercation in the dressing room/tunnel area after the game are emerging.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-utd-mourinho-tunnel-derby-14020532

If the reports are true, it's kind of poor form from Jose. I can understand that it's upsetting to hear them celebrating, but they've earned that right, by beating us, in our own patch (again, I might add!).
You don't want them to celebrate, you fight/take them on the pitch, instead of retreating in a shell, like we're scared, for most of the first half.
What's done is done, but we better hope that Jose and the team as a whole will use that game (and what allegedly happened afterwards) as motivation to go on a run of their own, starting with Bournemouth. Have to win that game one way or another. And preferably, put them to the sword.

 

Lukaku has been a divisive figure among mancs. He's put up very decent numbers with a mediocre side in recent years, but when you play for United it's the opponent's cup final almost every single game. And so far he hasn't impressed against impressive opponents.

A few of us wanted Morata, but Real fukked us with an outrageous fee demand. Griezmann wasn't gettable last summer, if he even has any interest in coming to OT (Karloski has personal friends who tell him he doesn't). Ibra suffered a bad injury and Rashford isn't quite there yet. So we settled for Lukaku, which was a bit of a disappointment and who's failed to show up against top opponents.

I hate the thought of having a 90m player serve as a squad man, but if he can't pull himself together the rest of the season we may have to bring in a proper striker next summer, using Lukaku when our first choice striker needs rest.

 

A few talking points from the game.

www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/dec/10/five-things-manchester-united-manchester-city-paul-pogba

 

I think Rashford is ready. He's just being wasted on the left.

My ideal attacking lineup.

 

i never want to see united with 30-35 pct possession - win or lose. this is beneath us.

 

Its here to stay with Jose. This is what we chose to sacrafice to get back to where we should be.


Sometimes i feel like he does this in big games. Intentionally plays an overly attacking or open side just to show the board and the fans that were better of playing negative football to get results.

 

The FA are looking into the post game issue between the 2 teams.

www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11166533/fa-enquire-into-manchester-united-and-manchester-city-tunnel-fracas

 

I don't know about that.

Barcelona 09-11 had incredible possession stats, but were a hideous bore to watch apart from the occasional Messi run with the ball. Arsenal sport fantastic possession stats, but are serial losers.

A successful counterattack is, or at least can be, one of the most beautiful things to watch in all of sport. Ferguson's sides were at their best when we counterattacked, not when we pinged the ball around for 15-20 touches before taking the shot. The goal by Giggs against Arsenal in the FA Cup semi-final 1999 may be the most beautiful goal in the history of English football. The Ronaldo counterattack goal (Ronaldo-Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo) against Arsenal in 2009 was glorious. RvP's immortal volley off Rooney's long ball 2013. Cantona's chip from the counterattack v Sheffield (can't recall the exact year).

What's beneath us isn't counterattacking football, but the lack of growth in understanding between our attacking players to make it work well consistently. Pogba is brilliant with his long passing and his ability to beat defenders on the dribble, but Lukaku has been incredibly poor, Rashford is still learning the craft, Martial is inconsistent, Lingard is inconsistent and Fellaini is completely useless except as a back post target. Miki has collapsed and Mata just doesn't have the physical tools to break down top defenders.

Ferguson drilled his sides into learning how to score in possession as well in the counter. He understood that some opponents will defend deep against us and others will have a go at us. Mourinho understands this too, but he's done too little to engineer a side that can break down top sides like City and Chelsea. We should have paid the ransom for Morata, we should have paid the ransom for Perisic and we should have offloaded Fellaini and kept Pereira. Those moves wouldn't have guaranteed us wins over City and Chelsea this season but we would have had more technical proficiency in our buildup play and more power in the counter. We're going to finish no better than second, and probably third, in the league this season because of key player decisions that were made last summer. That's not what I wanted but it's a vast improvement over 16/17 and, if we make the moves that are staring us right in the face, I have no doubt we can compete for the prem trophy and CL trophies in 18/19.

But it will entail tactics that on some days will see us with 30-35 pct possession. Staying true to United's roots is the way forward.

 

The possession percentage figure really does not concern me. We could have similar figures but playing in a more adventurous and positive manner. What I really took issue to what Jose's seemingly refusal to even try to go at City, even if it was just via the counter, which we appeared to be perfectly set up for with Lingard, Rashford ańd Martial playing together, supporting Lukaku.
It was expected that City would be getting the lion share of the possession, but it was not expected we'd be so negative (and as mentioned previously, just look scared of City) at OT. Even more so when Jose appeared to go with the 4-2-3-1.
For better or worse, that ultra conservative, very safe approach will not change against top (and especially Pep teams), but hopefully, after the 2nd defeat in a row at home vs City, Jose will have learned about balance and compromise when playing those teams. In a game we were supposed to win, it never really likely the way Jose had the team set up going into it...

 

I have to say. Im usually not the most sporting guy (at least as a player) but of all im hearing about this post match scuffle is true, highly disappointed.

Jose, we lost. You lost. You and the players deserve to have it rubbed in your face. Take the L like a man.

Lets see who gets suspended

 

City just have a right to celebrate a huge derby win in the house of their city rival. Plus, they've taken a big step towards the title in the process. There's nothing wrong with what they did.
And if it's Jose who starting it all by bitching about them celebrating, he's a pretty big hypocrite: how any times have we seen him celebrating wildly on the pitch after a big win? CL win vs United at OT in 2004 or at the Camp Nou in 2010 are just 2 of many examples that come to mind.
Whether it was considered in good taste or not, just did not matter because it's inherently his right to do so. Same applies here really.

 

The truth is always out there, but rarely every fully discernible.

Let's assume we know what really happened: that City were wildly celebrating as though they had just won the league trophy and that Jose went into the dressing room and told them to calm down and that the players squirted water and milk at him.

Mourinho is alleged to have said "Show some fukking respect? Who are you?"

It is also alleged that Lukaku threw a bottle at Arteta (now an assistant coach), which led to a cut above his eye.

Let's assume there was a "20 man pub fight", although it was surely just pushing and shoving. Handbags, as Brits like to call it.

I like the fact that Mourinho stood up for his club and demanded that City behave like sportsmen. Of course they're allowed to celebrate a glorious, but in his mind the City players crossed a line and needed to be called on it. I don't endorse fist-fights inside a stadium and I'm sure there will the players involved will be deposed, but the point for us home gamers is that Mourinho took this defeat hard and showed passion in defending the club in its day of infamy.

It's up to each of us to decide whether City's behavior at their win, a glorious win at Old Trafford no question but only a win in mid-December, merited a defiant reaction by Mourinho. Have a look at their celebration.

 

taking offense to how people celebrate when they beat you is so weak. you don't wan them making all that noise after the game? beat them.