English players Dual Nationality thread

I think you've misunderstood my conclusion here.

It's not about them deserving nothing but contempt. I'm sure they're decent folks to hang around and have a drink with.

I just do not want them any where near my national team. The national program means too much to the country to have half-hearted individuals wearing in its ranks.

You've also got the binaries wrong. Those 'unnuanced binaries' are yours, not mine. My own binaries actually read as follows:

1. This group of guys places a significant amount of value on the opportunity to represent their ancestral homeland of Jamaica and will take the necessary steps (which include some sacrifices, i.e. trans-Atlantic flights, but yields many benefits as well) to do so or, at a bare minimum, give signifcant consideration to doing so (even if they, like Sterling, ultimately decide to the contrary).

2. This group of guys does not place significant value on the opportunity to represent their ancestral homeland of Jamaica (couldn't care less about the chance, really) and will take no steps toward (or give significant consideration to) doing so.

Those are the binaries. And yes, I will contend that I can very well reduce all of these players down to those two binaries.

Plenty of individuals who have Jamaican heritage (and even many who do not, to be honest) love the food, slang, culture, etc. Many make the mistake of assuming that this means they are in binary group 1 (as described above). They are quite often not - for many of these people (and I include Antonio among them), Jamaica is a novelty to which their affinity is not significant enough to facilitate the kind of commitment seen in group 1. Just because a player values the culture, language, food, etc of his ancestral home does not mean he values the opportunity to represent said ancestral home in any meaningful capacity.

If the chance to represent our country does not mean much to you, then do not bother. That, to me, is the golden rule.
The chance to represent Jamaica does not mean much to Michail Antonio. Thus, I contend that he should never make the nationality switch.

Now, you may have taken from my tone that I have some contempt for Antonio and others like him who may reside in binary group 2. That is not completely untrue - as someone who puts a very high value on his heritage and any opportunity to aid/represent/enhance it, I do get a little annoyed when I see others with said heritage who seem to put far less value on those opportunities than I would.

However, as we've covered earlier in this thread in long-ago discussions, this is not about me. Not every Jamaican-descendant can, will, or should value their heritage exactly as I do. Antonio clearly sees his heritage differently than I. This is fine - he is not me. He has born and raised somewhere else with different perspectives and different experiences shaping his views as he's grown to manhood. Not everyone has the same precise affinity with the same parts of their heritage. Not everyone relates to their roots in precisely the same way. These things differ, and that is fine.

So, to that end, I make no moral judgments about Antonio, and I will apologize if it came across as though I did. I do not think he is a bad person. I do not think he is deserving of "nothing but contempt".

Here is what I do think: Antonio and those like him should never get any where near the Jamaican national program. They should never be afforded the opportunity to wear the colors and represent this country because they have not shown that they value said opportunity nearly enough to make such an offer worthwhile. They are not bad people and I respect their decision to value their ancestry in a way that fits their perspectives (not my own), but those who put the level of value on the opportunity to represent Jamaica than Antonio does simply must not be anywhere near the program. The chance to represent Jamaica should not be open to those who do not put significant value in it.

Again, the golden rule here: If the chance to represent our country does not mean much to you, then do not bother. If you are not in binary group 1 (described above) then stay away from the program. Period.

Zero interest in ever playing for England is not a requirement to be in binary group 1, described above. Wes Morgan is in that group. Plenty of players with England chances as dim or dimmer than Morgan's at the time of his commitment have blown Jamaica off to "wait and see" - I know, I've documented many of them and followed their recruitment (even participating at times) closely. These are players who look almost certain to never play for England, but remain unwilling to commit to Jamaica in the way Morgan did. Those are folks in binary group 2. There is a meaningful difference between them.

Wes Morgan is in group 1 because he valued the chance to represent Jamaica. That is why he committed. Your claim that Antonio might have thought "why not?" if he hadn't believed he had a chance to represent England and would have instead enthusiastically committed to Jamaica is false because it wrongly gives primacy to England (specifically, the chance to play for England) as the determining factor in the expression of enthusiasm or the provision of consideration for the opportunity to represent Jamaica. The truth of the matter is that many players who have no realistic chance of representing England (and whose lack of said opportunity is too painfully obvious for their not to be personally aware of it) do exactly as Antonio did, and exactly the opposite of what Morgan did. In fact, that is exceedingly common (approaching normal).

It doesn't come down to England in the vast majority of cases involving the recruitment of diasporans. It comes down to their relationship with their heritage and the level of value that is correspondingly placed on the chance to serve and represent said heritage. That is the difference maker, and that is why Wes Morgan committed to Jamaica when he did and didn't pull a Jermaine Pennant, Jay Bothroyd, Dwight Gayle, or Troy Deeney.

Wes Morgan is the kind of player I want on my team - I know that the chance to be in the side and wear our shirt (and, in Morgan's case, the armband on more than one occasion) means something to them. Antonio and the others should stay far away, because I know for a fact that this same chance would mean very little to them and our side would suffer for it.

 

Surely it is just a case that Antonio, Dyer and Deeney have played well in the PL at an age where an England call up isn't out of the question.....whereas Hector, Mariappa and McLeary have never come close to a call up to England and Wes Morgan was 30 and had never played in the PL at the time of his call up.

You can read everything into everyone's nuances of languages and love for Jamaica, but ultimately the only English players playing for Jamaica have been deemed not good enough for England so their decision is a lot easier to make - for them it is Jamaica or no international football ever.

 

Well you say that, but then you go on to reiterate the binaries that I was describing, saying that Antonio views Jamaica as a "novelty" and that you find that annoying. All entirely in your head. You have no idea how he views Jamaica except that he has a clear preference for playing football for England. It's perfectly possible that he loves and values both.

Again, you're completely guessing. I'm not saying that every single English Jamaican would prefer to play for England, but that you have no way of dismissing the possibility that someone like Morgan would have preferred to play or wait for England because neither looked like a possibility when he accepted a call from Jamaica (at the age of 29 and 3/4, apparently never having contacted the JFF previously to make them aware of his grandparental connection). Similarly, you're only guessing that Antonio would have done anything differently to Morgan if he was in the same situation. Perhaps he'd have said all the right things and you'd have been celebrating him now, and his oh-so-real investment in the furthering of Jamaica. Perhaps not. I don't know either, but I'm not pretending that I do.

 

Wes Morgan did play for England in a game between a Football League U21 XI (or u23s) versus an Italian equivalent.

But he also probably cares loads about Jamaica. People can care a lot about two countries.

 

I have a very clear idea of how he views the opportunity to represent Jamaica. That was made very clear, publicly, by him with both his words and actions. There is nothing "in my head" - it's patently obvious. Your going out of your way to ignore it doesn't change this.

I did not reiterate the binaries you are describing. Your binaries put no focus at all on how the player values the opportunity to represent Jamaica, which is what is actually at issue here.
It is not perfectly possible that Michail Antonio loves and values the opportunity to represent Jamaica and the opportunity to represent England. It is perfectly clear that he only values one of those opportunities to any meaningful degree.
Now, it may very well be the case that Antonio values the culture, language, food, and other things associated with his heritage to some degree. That's fine, but it does not then follow that he also values the opportunity to represent said heritage. His actions clearly preclude that conclusion.

Not really, no. I'm drawing conclusions that are made perfectly clear by the actions of the players we are talking about, as well as by longstanding precedent in Jamaica's engagement with others like them. You are the one guessing.

First, I have not dismissed the possibility that someone like Morgan would have preferred to play for England if he had been given the equal chance to do so. I would think that such a preference is not uncommon at all, even among the Jamaican-born/raised players. That's not the issue.

The issue is whether the player values the opportunity to represent Jamaica. A player can have an ideal preference (which would, in most cases, be an opportunity to become an automatic-England starter with all the benefits that come with that) and still value that other opportunity.
If Wes Morgan had been given the chance to become an England regular at the same time he had been given the chance to become a Jamaica regular, I'm not at all discounting the possibility that he could have chosen the former in a scenario where it was available.
What determines whether or not he values the opportunity to represent Jamaica is what he does when such a clear cut choice ("Be an England regular or a Jamaica regular right now") is not available (as it was for Sterling, Sturridge, and some others). That is the scenario we are discussing here. A player in that scenario who values the opportunity to represent Jamaica will generally either do it, or will put serious consideration in to doing it. A player in that scenario who does not value the opportunity will hold out for England at all costs, regardless of how infinitesimal their England chances are, and they will give very little consideration (read: they will dismiss immediately) to the opportunity.

I am outright dismissing the possibility that, at the time Wes Morgan was approached, he would have preferred to wait for England. I am dismissing this possibility because I am very confident that, had he had such a preference, he would have actually waited for England. I have this confidence because I have seen Jamaica's recruitment of dozens of English-born players (and participated actively in some instances), and the vast majority of those players (nearly all of whom have England prospects as dim or dimmer than Morgan's) choose to wait for England. What Morgan did was abnormal and exceptional - the vast majority of players in his position do the opposite of what he did and wait for England despite not having remotely decent chances of making it with England. This is what you are not understanding. We have precedent here - I am not just making blind guesses absent any basis in anything. Wes Morgan and Michail Antonio are not the first and only players to have been recruited by Jamaica.

You are basing your entire argument on a guestimation that all of this is up in the air and could go either way with no influence from tendencies or trends - that is your prediction of how Jamaica's interactions with dual-internationals in Morgan or Antonio's position is. Your prediction is a guess based on no precedent or experience with Jamaica's interactions with said dual-nationals, or on any actual personal knowledge of how said dual nationals tend to relate to their heritage in different parts of the world.

I am basing my conclusions on actual experience and precedent with dozens of scenarios just like this one involving dual nationals like Morgan, as well as personal knowledge as to precisely how many of those scenarios played out (in addition to the fact that I share the precise heritage of some of these dual nationals, which has added some understanding of the specific intercultural dynamics at play).

I've seen Jamaica interact with dozens of dual nationals in Morgan's and Antonio's position. I've seen the outcomes. I know the norms.

I am not the one guessing here. You are.

He was in the same situation and did the exact same thing.

He has been approached on more than one occasion about the idea of representing Jamaica, and those approaches stretch back to his days as a Chmpionship regular well before his establishment in the EPL. His Jamaican heritage was confirmed well before he ended his stint at your club.

His response to the inquiries then was what it is now. Nothing changed. He has shown the exact same level of enthusiasm for the opportunity to represent Jamaica as he did when he was nothing more than a Championship starter with a lot of loan spells to his name and a Jamaican international for a teammate who helped to provide him with the opportunity to represent his ancestral homeland.

I am basing my conclusions on experience and precedent. You are not. I am not guessing. You are.

He would not have said all the right things. He did not say all the right things. His response was quite contrary to that because he simply didn't care much for the chance to represent Jamaica. It did not matter then that he had no realistic shot at England at the time because his value of the opportunity had nothing at all to do with England. His lack of enthusiasm for Jamaica remains independent of how close or how far England is - that is the case with the vast majority of dual nationals Jamaica recruits. He is the norm - Morgan is an exception.

 

Boring.

 

Then why are you bringing slang and food into it and saying that Antonio views his Jamaican heritage as a "novelty"? That's what I picked you up on.

And that isn't the situation that Antonio was in. The comments you linked to were made five months before his first England call-up, during a season in which he was repeatedly linked with an England call-up.

And nobody's said otherwise... It's highly unlikely that he thought he had a chance of playing for England when he was playing in the Championship and approaching his 30th birthday, so there would have been nothing to wait for even if it was his preference. It appeared at the time to be Jamaica or nothing.

I'm struggling to understand what you're actually saying here, but if you think I'm guessing at anything, you really should just read the posts properly. I'm describing hypothetical alternatives to your assumptions to demonstrate that they aren't safe. I'm not remotely guessing at which one is true and I made that clear. That's precisely the point: you can't know.

His Jamaican heritage was never in doubt, again that's completely irrelevant. I can't find any evidence that he turned down an approach back in 2014, but so what if he did? Morgan didn't play for Jamaica at 24 either. They were approached in completely different circumstances.

What did he say? Because I'm struggling to find any public pronouncements at all prior to the year of his first England call-up.

 

Yeah, I know. I'll bow out before it gets too tedious for words.

 

It's not you. That poster has a habit of droning on.

 

I mean, it takes two, to be fair. I'll leave him the last word and then we can move on.

 

Good talk, bro.

 

I thought he had already said he wants to play for Scotland?

 

Think this one slipped in under the radar. Brooks gone back to Wales so it seems, that's a shame as thought he looked good

http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/foot...-wales-after-impressing-for-england-1-8721778

 

He still has his one time switch and Toulon showed where his preference lies but I'm not convinced he'll reach the level where we'd try to woo him before he gets into their senior squad.

Quite a few other dual nationals in that squad, as expected.

 

How good is Ampadu anyway?

 

Well he's definitely one of the best 23 players not to come from Wales right now.

But really, he's a good player. I've only seen him in midfield in League Two aside from the odd under-16 game, but he seemed very calm and aware of the players around him. The kind of player who can bring a frantic game under control with a couple of simple touches. Of course it's a different challenge at the top level and only time will tell if he's up to it.

 

He's been starting for Chelsea U23 while Jonathan Panzo and Marc Guehi (both team of the tournament at the recent U17 Euros) have been left with the U18s. He would be a stand out within that stand out age group if he was with us, I suspect

 

Speaking of which, here's a live stream of him playing for Chelsea under-23s right now:

 

Well that's disappointing, I was hoping he wouldn't be much of a loss

 

So, Ben Woodburn.

 

I think like with Tyler Roberts and others we simply left in too late with him, by the time he was on the radar he was already settled in with Wales. I think that's one reason they introduced the under-15 team so we don't lose out on these guys, except Wales then try and go even younger to try and snatch the english talent, they'll be putting together an under-4's squad soon!

 

Wales already have a U12 training programme (no doubt picking out some eligible English lads early). I remember a few of the England lads speak of a U14 level we have. I'd be surprised if we have anything below that though. We are slow to cotton on to these things...

 

I think the writing is on the wall that Ethan Ampadu will be the next one we lose to Wales, only a matter of time.I'm just glad we are producing a lot of other really promising kids so it hopefully wont come back to bite us in the ass but I do feel slightly salty as just can't stand Chris Coleman, just gets right on my nerves!