England Under 15 Discussion Thread #1 (2009 born)

Discussion in 'England' started by zanyk, Mar 17, 2015.

  1. PalaceYouth

    PalaceYouth New Member

    Crystal Palace
    Oct 1, 2017
    BarryfromEastenders repped this.
  2. RogerNelson

    RogerNelson Member

    Arsenal
    England
    Jan 7, 2018
    Yeah him and Jordan and Brandon are going to the camp
     
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  3. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    Is that the England U15 squad? Strange that we’ve gone from an almost all black U18 squad to an almost all white U15 squad.

    Vincent Kompany would be going insane at the lack of diversity!
     
  4. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    they're all goalkeepers I think. Must have been a GK only camp.
     
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  5. Juni

    Juni Member+

    Nov 26, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Yeah they have them a few times a season, that pic is from last season I think.
     
  6. Jenks

    Jenks Member+

    Feb 16, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    I think that only further adds weight to the argument that the racial disparity among the age groups can be explained by academies scouting for athleticism at an early ago too much. The fact that the difference in demographics is so stark between players that need to sprint and those that don't is almost comical to be honest.
     
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  7. Garibaldi11

    Garibaldi11 Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1232 Garibaldi11, Oct 21, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
    This were the names we got together.

    Aaron Bott is very very good. I do expect him to make the actual England squads for games but lets see.
     
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  8. Garibaldi11

    Garibaldi11 Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The addage of the ball moves faster than the player seems less important than it was before.

    We seem to focus on the individual and they need to be able to elude the opposition through skill mixed with speed or power. That doesn't mean they any less skilled but producing players with a combination definitely seems the blue print.
     
  9. wellno

    wellno Member+

    Jul 31, 2016
    This topic has rolled back round again. These teams are being drawn from age groups that have very different demographics to the age groups that made up England teams in the 10s, 00s or 90s. The ethnicity of the available player base have changed, academies aren't trying to sign more black, or 'athletic', players but there are much more of those players available.

    And people that can sprint faster tend to end up playing in positions where sprinting faster is a useful attribute. Who would have thought it.
     
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  10. PalaceYouth

    PalaceYouth New Member

    Crystal Palace
    Oct 1, 2017
    Yeah the picture is the only one I have that includes Whitworth, it is from a GK camp last year.
     
  11. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    What a bizarre post.. if academies aren’t trying to sign more black players, then why is 80% of England’s U18 squad black?

    Are you seriously suggesting that black lads make up 80% of that age groups demographic?!

    A Man City youth coach recently said that most coaches look out for ‘BBQ.’ The language may be crass but the intention is obvious.

    Countries like Spain punch above their weight because they focus on developing technical players such as Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta.

    We don’t, because we take the easy route of picking athletic players (who are usually black.)

    If we focus on technical players, then our team would better reflect our general demographics.
     
  12. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    Now that's a bizarre post.
     
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  13. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    What’s your explanation then genius?
     
  14. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    Since taking over as manager of Les Bleus last August Blanc has advocated concentrating on cultivating technique and intelligence rather than power and speed. In the leaked meeting he reiterated this philosophy and regretted that French academies seem to be populated primarily by youngsters chosen for their athletic prowess more than their football flair. He claimed that these youngsters tended to be black. "You have the impression that they really train the same prototype of players: big, strong, powerful … What is there that is currently big, strong, powerful? The blacks. That's the way it is. It's a current fact. God knows that in the training centres and football schools there are loads of them."

    [​IMG]
     
  15. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    Oh, God. As if one win sways the argument either way.

    Italy won the World Cup in 2006. Spain in 2010. Germany in 2014. Should we have an all white team? Of course not.

    But because France won most recently, we should copy their over reliance on black players. Real smart thinking there.
     
  16. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    Well, your argument is exactly the same as Blanc's. There's no over-reliance on black players from France, or from England. That's just a theory you have with little to back it up. There's no evidence to suggest the black players are technically deficient or that they're being promoted unfairly. It's not even race that most of these players have in common, but birthplace and the socio-economic areas they're brought up in. Paris + London are almost exact parallels for talent production.

    I don't get how you can follow the English sides over the past year or so and be worried about the racial make ups of the sides. They're doing great.

    Who are the technically bad black players you speak of? Which ones trouble you?
     
  17. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    To be fair, I’m not worried about our teams at all. In fact, my favourite teams are the senior side, our U19s and U17s. They are all quite diverse teams.

    Also, I’m not for one second suggesting that black players are technically less proficient.

    My point is that the best way to achieve future diversity is to focus (or keep focusing) on technique rather than athleticism.
     
  18. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    The point about over or under reliance is a tough one to argue. Is the Premier League over reliant on foreign managers?

    If I’m perfectly honest then a completely non white England team would make me feel uncomfortable. The same way that a Premier League without a black manager makes Rio Ferdinand uncomfortable. People sometimes need role models who look like them.

    Does the current racial balance of the England side bother me? Not at all.
     
  19. Garibaldi11

    Garibaldi11 Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1244 Garibaldi11, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
    I was actually looking at a break-down of the current u16s

    NORTH (Lancs,Yorks, Sunderland, Celtic)
    White : 12
    Black : 8

    Midlands (East & West)
    White : 3
    Black : 4

    London & surrounds (Reading)
    White 5
    Black : 21

    That highlights what you are speaking about.

    I can't speak for others but we have had this conversation before and Juni & IG Spur have had their say.

    But from Forest's perspective we've definitely had a slightly stronger white group 70-80 to 30-20 split in the past. Most of out 'black'contingent have been Caribbean descent and are still.

    I would definitely say that our 'black' contingent has grown over recent years and maybe the reason for that is our new associate local clubs that are tapping into talent we perhaps never did before. Pass Move Grin and The Rossoneri are providing us with mainly black players in the schoolboy groups mainly in the lower groups but also in 13-16s and what is different is quite a number of them are of African descent which is new for the academy. What I have noticed is they aren't bigger but they perhaps quicker and have more flair. I can't say why there aren't more Gascoigne's and Waddle's but it is not like there are none when you look at Foden, Maddison, Mount, Smith-Rowe etc But I don't think they being chosen because they bigger or that they lack any technical ability with being quicker and having more flair.
     
  20. Juni

    Juni Member+

    Nov 26, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Aside from anything else, I always find it interesting that people think white when they bring up Gazza, Waddle, Foden etc, the archetypal playmaker with technique for days, as if Hudson-Odoi, Sancho, Gomes, Dozzell, Edwards, Mighten, Musah Dembele and so many more aren't technically outstanding.
     
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  21. Garibaldi11

    Garibaldi11 Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1246 Garibaldi11, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
    Exactly my point. Hope the above didn't come across like that. I was just speaking specifically about white representation there.

    The black players coming through are technically superb and are all round players. A lot may be physically stronger and quicker but that only adds to what their talents are. The combination of course which is quite lethal.
     
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  22. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    #1247 TopBanana10, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
    It’s always difficult to prove racial bias or any kind of bias.

    Who are these brilliant white players that are being denied opportunities at youth level?
    Who are these brilliant black managers that should have Guardiola's job?
    Who are these young English managers that should have jobs at top six clubs?

    However, there is an argument that diversity is important in that it gives a fairer representation of society. Whenever a certain group is massively over or represented then I am naturally suspicious.

    On the other hand, some people are colour blind. They don’t care what colour or nationality our players or coaching staff are and I respect that.
     
  23. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion.

    Most of us on this forum are concerned about a decline in opportunity for English players and managers at top clubs. Some would label our concern as xenophobic.

    To a few of us, this concern extends to a dwindling number of white or even English players within our youth set ups. Again, some would label our concern as xenophobic or racist.

    I would argue that my concerns are more about not wishing to see white or English players marginalised, than they are about getting rid of foreign or dual nationality players.
     
  24. Jenks

    Jenks Member+

    Feb 16, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    The demographic-shift argument is ridiculous to me, or at the very least woefully incomplete. There is not a city in the country where black kids outnumber white kids at all no matter the socio-economic bracket, never mind ten to one as we see in some XIs. The academies are clearly chasing players that stand out athletically at youth level, something we KNOW does not properly translate to senior level. This is a lesson we learned decades ago yet are now regressing on, why? Some success in youth tournaments? It's politically incorrect to do so? The fact that the England teams get whiter the older the age group is not just an expression of demographic shift, it's a reflection of the declining importance of athleticism over technique, vision, skill etc. in the senior game. The problem is not that there are loads of black players in the youth teams, the problem is what that says about the talent that is being left by the wayside for bad reasons.
     
  25. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    how are we regressing though? Regressing from what? Who are these untechnical black players we're carrying? Maybe, just maybe, most of these players are athletic AND technical.

    We're mass producing the best players we ever have.

    This is why it reminds me of Blanc's comments. He was saying it whilst France were producing one of their best generations of players ever.
     

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