England Senior Team General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'England' started by BarryfromEastenders, Jul 11, 2018.

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  1. sharpovic

    sharpovic Member+

    May 20, 2010
    Don’t think it’s about the system, we already replicate Liverpool ‘s system and it turned out to be a disaster. It’s not about playing your favorite players either, it’s about playing the players suited to international football, which is very different to the 200 miles an hour PL, and make the team balanced
     
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  2. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    What's the alternative though, sit in and counter?
     
  3. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    When was it a 'disaster'? Against Holland perhaps? Dramatic to call it a disaster given that if Lingard had been a few cm further back on his disallowed goal we'd have likely gone through and we ended up losing through terrible defensive errors.

    Holland were better but I think the main failing was their high press and how Rice couldn't cope with it. I think we'd e much better with Rice playing that position.
     
  4. ht_hu96

    ht_hu96 Member+

    Middlesbrough
    England
    May 23, 2019
    Personally, I'd like us to play possession football and use a technician oriented midfield. However, if that's beyond us, then I don't think sitting in and countering is so bad an idea in the big games. Not only would it give more space to the front 3 who can use their pace and stretch the game, it would also give our CB's more cover, in particular Maguire who lacks pace.
     
  5. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    We are suited to a counter attacking style but with home advantage in a number of the game we'll play I'd rather see us go out there and play football, shit or bust.
     
  6. ht_hu96

    ht_hu96 Member+

    Middlesbrough
    England
    May 23, 2019
    I too believe that Holland game was more to do with us losing it than them winning it if that makes sense. They weren't up to much going forward, didn't look threatening in open play and relied on our calamitous mistakes to win the game, in extra time as well.

    However, there were definitely warning signs in that game about the system we play and/or how well suited to it some of the personnel in the side are/were. A better attacking side than the Dutch would've created far more and potentially been out of sight that night if we had gifted the same level of control to them. So although we were mainly naive that night or wouldn't have made those same mistakes on another night, that performance was still unsustainable regardless.
     
  7. sharpovic

    sharpovic Member+

    May 20, 2010
    I was thinking about 2014 when hodgson played a Hendo / gerrard pivot. Against the Czechs or Kosovo at home the initial idea was to play rice in the Fabinho ‘s role and Hendo number 8. And I don’t think Bulgaria are much worse than the Czechs, they beat them at home and were very unlucky to lose away. We mostly made the Czechs look good. My point is, international football is a different animal, the level isn’t higher but the tempo is slower and the technical flaws are exposed. Our team is full of strengths but the wrong players in midfield could kill us once more - regardless of the system
     
  8. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    Rice isn’t fit to lace Fabinho’s boots let alone ‘ play his role ‘ ..
     
  9. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    #6934 AJ123, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
    2014 was 5 years ago! We didn't play a 4-3-3. The idea of Hodgson playing a 4-3-3 would make him dizzy! My point on the Holland game was that Rice isn't up to standard for that role currently so you'd be looking at that system with Winks there instead.

    I don't think you other point makes much sense. We made the Czech's look good playing a double pivot 4-3-2-1 but destroyed Bulgaria a team of similar quality playing a 4-3-3? We played a 4-3-3 in both games against Kosovo too.
     
  10. El_Mittinho_ii

    May 31, 2015
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Winks in the deepest role with Henderson to his right is a very good combination. Our right side (whether TAA, Trippier or less likely Walker behind Sterling or Sancho) is a very potent attacking threat but there can be space left in behind, so it makes sense for the player on the right of the midfield 3 to be the one with exceptional energy levels, discipline and awareness of defensive responsibilities to protect the space vacated by the full back. Winks is less solid defensively compared to Rice but vastly better on the ball playing as the 'metronome' in the middle; we wouldn't necessarily want him as a single pivot behind two genuine attacking midfielders, but Henderson is a good foil for him and negates the need for the deep player to be a pure 'holder'. Loftus-Cheek as a 2-way player would be a good alternative to Henderson

    Pickford, Pope, Heaton (Henderson)

    Alexander-Arnold, Trippier (Walker, Wan-Bissaka, James)
    Chilwell, Rose (Shaw, Sessegnon)
    Maguire, Stones, Gomez, Mings (Tomori)

    Winks, Rice (Dier, if he remembers how to play football)
    Henderson, Loftus-Cheek
    Oxlade-Chamberlain, Maddison (Mount, Barkley, Dele, Grealish, Foden - what a position of strength that is!!!)

    Sterling, Sancho, Rashford, Hudson-Odoi
    Kane, Abraham (Wilson)

    The 2nd midfielder position is the one I worry about for lack of depth - I can't think of a realistic option outside those 2. There's also a distinct drop-off in quality after the 4 wider forwards, but less concerned about them - in case of injury or severe drop off in form rather than picking a lesser quality like-for-like, one of the other AMs could come in with any of Maddison, Grealish or Mount capable of playing the inside forward role.
     
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  11. ht_hu96

    ht_hu96 Member+

    Middlesbrough
    England
    May 23, 2019
    It's the elephant in the room, but I think left back is the position with the least depth. Whilst we may not have a replica of Henderson for that role, we can easily change the system and play Winks as the 8 and then a pure destroyer or some other form of plan B. At left back however, Rose is now a significant drop off in quality from Chilwell and his attitude seems pretty questionable these days. I also think that the wide forward positions are fine even with injuries. The ox can play there and you could argue that Harvey Barnes should be in ahead of CHO atm anyway.
     
  12. dbs235

    dbs235 Member

    Mar 30, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Seems like we could be in for a rough ride. Could easily get France in our group, and play either Germany in the last 16/quarters or Spain.
     
  13. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    Is maguire that much worse than vvd? I mean maguire is a good solid defender, heads the ball well, tackles. If maguire was in liverpool's team instead of man u I think he would stand out more
     
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  14. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    I put that defeat down to not having our best midfield options available ie winks, cheek, henderson and an unfit harry kane
     
  15. roverman

    roverman Member+

    Dec 22, 2001
    We would compete easily with spain and Germany, france would be a fun game to watch, our attacking talent against theirs
     
  16. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    hes not half the player VVD is

    pace especially and reading of the game. He’s going to get exposed vs fast forwards in a 2
     
  17. NWCherries

    NWCherries Member

    AFC Bournemouth
    England
    Nov 17, 2019
    -------------------Pickford-------------------
    TAA----Maguire---Gomez----Chillwell
    ----Henderson--Winks--Maddison----
    Sterling----------Kane----------Sancho

    Its very hard to pick a first choice XI tbh, especially deciding who goes into the midfield 3 (Henderson, Maddison, Winks, Rice, Barkley, RLC, Mount and more).

    The squad is quite lopsided in terms of where all the talent is. Really exciting attackers and Wingbacks, but I'm not sure the core of the team is all that strong. It feels like we have around 8 "pretty good" midfielders, but a lot of them are quite similar and we don't really have a stand-out central player like a de Jong. The defence as a unit in particular doesn't fill me with much confidence either. But if we click at that next tournament there's no reason why we wouldn't be able to just blow some of the other teams away.
     
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  18. ht_hu96

    ht_hu96 Member+

    Middlesbrough
    England
    May 23, 2019
    The front 3 is an interesting one. On the one hand you have to say Rashford is miles ahead of Sancho based on his consistent ability to deliver in and impact big games. On the other however, Sancho fits better as he plays on the right and thus this allows Sterling to play in his best position on the left. Overall, I'd still say atm that it's worth putting Sterling on the right to fit in Rashford as I just feel he'll offer so much more than Sancho and his big game mentality and temperament is something we'd be foolish to overlook.
     
  19. sharpovic

    sharpovic Member+

    May 20, 2010
    The system is irrelevant, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, this won't change the results. The players on the pitch will. The problem vs the Czech wasn't the system, it was our lack of quality in midfield.
     
  20. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    #6945 AJ123, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
    The system isn't irrelevant, it's very relevant. 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 are two different systems. In a 4-2-3-1 you play a double pivot at the base of midfield and a 10. It's more conservative because you have an extra midfielder sat at the base of midfield instead of supporting the attack like you do in a 4-3-3 and you rely on the 10 to be the playmaker. Hodgson always plays negative football, its his MO. I'm surprised you think Southgate is playing the same system as Roy. This kind of system would suit Maddison but is falling out of favour among the better sides these days.

    In a 4-3-3 you play a single pivot in midfield and 2 numbers 8s This is the system favoured by many of the top sides these days like City & Liverpool and the one Southgate is employing for England, its a much more attacking system. The only time we didn't play it in this group we lost 1-2 to Czech Republic. I think Roy tried a more conservative system because of how open we were at times against Kosovo in the game prior but it took more away from us than it gave.
     
  21. sharpovic

    sharpovic Member+

    May 20, 2010
    Thank you for this tactical explanation mate but I think we all know the different tactical systems on here. As many coaches said, the system won't win you games the players and how they complement each other will. We played 5 different systems to accomodate Lampard and Gerrard, none worked bc Lampard and Gerrard were absolutely similar not bc of the systems.
    We played one game with Rice deep and Henderson 8, another game where they formed a pivot, it was poor both times because you can't have 2 players out of 3 midfielders who are not comfortable in possession. What made a big difference was Winks instead of Rice, not a change of system.

    Btw Hodgson didn't play negative football. And I never said Southgate played the same system.
     
  22. AJ123

    AJ123 Member+

    Man Utd
    England
    Feb 17, 2018
    You said that a 4-3-3 was a disaster for us in the past, then claiming that we played 4-3-3 with a Henderson/Gerrard double pivot in 2014 so I don't think that you do understand the tactical systems. It seems that you counted 3 midfielders on the pitch and seemed to think that was a 4-3-3.

    Rice literally played as the single pivot 6 in a 4-3-3 in three group games in which we scored 14 goals. They played as a double pivot in a single game in a 4-2-3-1 and that was the game we lost against Czech Republic.

    Systems do matter. That's why they exist. At international level you need to find the system that best suits the group of players that you have because you can't buy players to fit a system that you prefer.
     
  23. omaro

    omaro Member

    Nov 16, 2019
    Saudi Arabia
    i like your starting 11
    but i would pick stones above tomori
     
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  24. itfcjoe

    itfcjoe Member+

    Oct 8, 2014
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    And I think this 433 highlights more of our strengths and hides some of the weaknesses - the attacking 3 players and the full backs get room to play in and opportunities.

    We are not going to go into the next tournament and be able to shut games down - we will rely on scoring more than we concede.

    It's like the old Fergie teams, or the old Spanish teams that would create 25 chances and concede 8 - both of them were good enough to evolve into teams that would create 10 chances and concede 1, in Spain's case they went one further and would create 7-8 and concede 0.

    We are going into the tournament in very good shape - but like anyone in the world if we play a France or someone of that quality we have to rely on taking our chances and them not, we are not going to be able to be better than them for 90 minutes.

    I certainly wouldn't bet against us beating anyone on our day
     
  25. sharpovic

    sharpovic Member+

    May 20, 2010
    Exactly, which is why copying a club system without the same players doesn't make much sense. I never said that the disaster had anything to do with the system, I said that players were the most important. You think that Southgate changed the system between Kossovo at home and the Czechs, I think the system was similar, just Mount instead of Barkley, the context of the game made that Henderson dropped deeper against the Czechs. And in any case, the midfield did not look better against Kossovo at home, although Barkley gave us a bit more control than Mount. Anyway, I think we both gave our opinions at least 3 times, let's agree to disagree. I want a 4/3/3 too btw, I just want the right players in it.
     

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