ELIMINATÓRIAS, R7: Ecuador x Brasil, 9/1/16[R]

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by celito, Aug 29, 2016.

  1. Redshift

    Redshift Member+

    Dec 14, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    Club:
    Corinthians Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    By "lost control" you mean he forgot to bring Alex. Because coerência (read: teimosia).
     
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  2. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Where the f*ck do you get your knowledge of futebol ? All you do is talk shit on these threads.
    Casemiro's understanding of Tite's tactics were way above most players on the pitch. Looking at the statistics, Casemiro's stats were superior to most every player on the pitch.
    Then you continuously rip on the '82 team, but then you rep a poster stating that the '82 team was the second best of all time.
    And since you're Paulinho's agent, here is a good commentary on Paulinho from every major Brazuka journalist:
    "Paulinho – Resgatado por Tite após dois anos e tanto de esconderijo na China. Tentou e re-tentou. Mais baixos do que altos. Necessita evidentemente se descontrair. (Nota: 5,0)"

    You're a joke man.
     
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  3. Redshift

    Redshift Member+

    Dec 14, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    Club:
    Corinthians Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #203 Redshift, Sep 3, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2016
    I think I finally understood why you've been talking about Paulimho so much. I agree that a player doesn't have to actually take the ball to pressure the opposition player with possession and herd or divert him into less effective positions while the defense resets. There should be an objective way to measure that, though. The simplest way would be to compare our team defensive stats with and without Paulinho, holding other factors constant. There may be a more sophisticated methodology using his and the opponent's recorded field position. I feel like one would have to do that to reach an unbiased conclusion about whether Paulinho's versus other D/CM's styles of play are more effective.
     
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  4. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    i stopped at what the ********

    I don't talk to you that way... dont talk to me that way.. actually dont worry ignored.
     
  5. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    There is no real way of measuring this. But every time a player comes out with this type of game; these qualities per se; they are ignored by all watching and played over and over by their coaches.
     
  6. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The same way I watched the game again with focus on the Casemiro, RA, and Paulinho I suggest you do the same. You'd see that Casemiro was not the worst on the pitch. He did his job very well.
     
  7. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    We have to be honest, neither RA, Paulinho, nor Casemiro are craques. They are at a maximum, good players. Paulinho had a good 2-3 year run of form at Corinthians in a system that suited him that was well coached. In England he failed. BTW, if Paulinho was as versatile as @Guigs is saying, wouldn't he be able to handle a different system at Tottenham ? In summary, Tite will have to devise a scheme to make these players to play good if he intends to use them as part of the midfield.

    I question Paulinho (and RAs) ability to play in China and remain competitive. I just don't see how their game will not regress. I've heard that physical preparation in China is basically non existent and some Brazilian players do it on their own with their own trainers. Not sure how true that is but that's pretty scary. Not to mention the fuso horario these players will experience coming from China to play WCQ games. That has to be draining specially on older players.
     
  8. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    They hired Paulinho expecting Zidane. They hired him expecting a player who would shine and be their 10. That's not who they hired. Spurs fans complained that sometimes it was like he wasn't even on the pitch. Sounds familiar?

    Come on now, playing for Barcelona, RM, Juventus, Bayern or the top Euro teams; you're not really playing vs the best competition. You are beating down lower competition and playing top competition 4-6 times a year. That's of course if you start all of those 4-6 games.

    A good player is a good player. And once he reaches his peak, he's not really progressing anymore. More of maintenance. Less games and less demanding games keeps them fresher.

    I agree with the drain. But he's playing an easier schedule and with a smaller stretch of games put together. He'll be more rested.

    Then again... whats the difference between playing in Turkey, Ukraine, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Russia or China? none of those teams contend for anything really.
     
  9. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Who would you say was the worst for Brazil?

    Alves and Marcelo got picked on early. R.A had some bad passes too, almost trying too hard. William maybe was a bit absent at some points. Casemiro has early mistakes and his first half was pretty bad, he did recover in the second half along with everyone else.

    To me the worst players for Brazil were William, Casemiro and Coutinho. Which kind of points that William's position needs to be rethinked. What was Tite trying to accomplish there? Just a guy to run a lot and press? who will need to be subbed at halftime every game because he's tired?

    But Casemiro made more mistakes I feel. A lot of times he kept the ball at his feet on BAD positions. Some of the times I felt he was going to get picked right at our midfield. Which would probably lead to a goal scoring chance.

    Props to him for not allowing that to happen and dribbling out of those plays.... But bad plays with good results are still bad plays.
     
  10. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I don't think there was a worst per say. Nobody did real bad. I don't even blame Alves for getting beat 1 x 1 vs Montero. That's a mismatch and he was always going to need help. Montero blew by Marquinhos as well at one point. Alves was good with his passing as he usually is.

    Willian IMO just didn't get the ball. Not sure if it was tactical or just how the game developed. It's not like he got the ball and was wasteful. Plus I think he needed to provide Dani Alves with quite a bit of help on defense. I don't think 1 game like this away at Equador means he needs to be dropped. The game vs Colombia will be completely different and his skills may be more used. Each game is a story.

    There were a couple of instances where Casemiro got caught yes. So did RA and even Paulinho once if I remember correctly. As I said Casemiro is definitely not a craque, but I think it's absurd to punish the guy for making it into one of the top teams in the world in one of the top European leagues. I mean, how is Paulinho being tested in China ? RM were very unbalanced before he was made a starter and he is their only midfielder that has true defneding skills. Modric, Kroos, are not natural defenders and Bale and Ronaldo don't track back much. He is one of the reasons they finished the season strong and that's a pretty accepted opinion by RM fans. Plus his performances in the tough games were also good. He was pretty good vs Barca at Camp Nou.

    I mean, you seem to judge Paulinho only by his positioning, but Casemiro you are putting him down for his seemingly poor passing plus defending. I am pretty sure Casemiro can close spaces like Paulinho. As I said, to be on the team, Paulinho will need to do a whole lot more than just filling up spaces intelligently.
     
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  11. Redshift

    Redshift Member+

    Dec 14, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    Club:
    Corinthians Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I wouldn't give up so quickly. There has to be a way to measure the effect of a player off the ball on the player in possession. If you assume the player in possession wants to run in direction of goal, and would do so if not impeded, you could probably measure the correlation between the off the ball player's proximity and velocity vector versus the player in possession's velocity vector. The greater the forced deviation between the player in possession's vector and a vector representing the most direct path to the goal could be turned into some sort of influence stat.
     
  12. Redshift

    Redshift Member+

    Dec 14, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    Club:
    Corinthians Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #212 Redshift, Sep 3, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2016
    Of course, you'd also have to see whether this purported "influence" translated into results (fewer goals conceded, more possession and disarmes by teammates, etc.).
     
  13. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Agreed, and Alves towards the end was getting the better of Montero, maybe due to him being tired

    I'm not saying drop him, I'm saying rethink his role. And I do also believe it was tactical, since same happened to Coutinho during the match. Those 2 players can be used better than that.
    In a land of blinds, the one who has 1 eye is king. Casemiro is the only one there who is a a true defending midfielder. They don't play pretty, they don't do anything glorifying, but they run around and get challenges or stop counters. However, I do believe that if you put a similar player in style at his position (any other DM) the result would be similar. He's not a stand out that's all.

    I would have preferred seeing Allan get a call for example. He was great when I watched him play, and from what I hear in these forums he's been one of the best in Italy, on a sub par team. Which means, he's getting tested all the time. Unlike Casemiro.

    Also.. No way we ever get Mario Fernandes back right? He'll be Russian for the next WC?

    You need a DM, he's just not a stand out DM. Remember his time in the Olympic team? Sao Paulo? He just wasn't good enough. I hope L. Gustavo comes back to the position.

    Positioning in the pitch is really important. Opens up for passing, opens up for shooting and closes spaces for opponents. And no Casemiro does not position himself like Paulinho.
    What else you expect him to do? Score goals at the same rate as Neymar? Get tackles at the same rate as L. Gustavo? Clearances at the same rate as Miranda? Crosses same rate as wing players? Maybe we're looking for saves? put some gloves on him!

    That's not his position... don't expect the same numbers and the same results. Expect 5 goals in 30 games and your wings being hella offensive. Considering our Wingbacks are better at offense than defense... it makes him invaluable.
     
  14. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Paulinho got the lowest score from the bastidores. Luckily for Paulinho, Tite loves him, but for how long can Tite carry him? If Paulinho doesn't pick up his game he will be gone.
     
  15. Bakaman

    Bakaman Member

    May 8, 2008
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I want Thiago Maia to be tested at Paulinho's spot sometime.
     
  16. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I wouldn't mind him being called up. But tested? maybe in friendlies sure, but I SURE don't want to have a team packed with 21-24 year olds in the World Cup. It would serve him greatly to be called up and to play under older players at the national team
     
  17. MerlinRM

    MerlinRM Member+

    May 5, 2014
    NorthEast USA
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Finally put Guigs on ignore. Idk how you guys do it with the back and forth :ROFLMAO:.

    In an ideal world, Paulinho only got the callup because of what Tite said about bringing players who are already playing and someone like Maia, Allan, or Fernandinho even get called next month. But I have a sneaking suspicion that Paulinho is here to stay as a Tite guy.
     
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  18. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That Guigs is so f*cking annoying.

    Yes Paulinho is a Tite favorite but he still has to perform.
     
  19. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    His job will be to successfully connect the midfield to the attack. That means making some incisive passes. Plus provide the first real line of defense. Don't expect him to score much, just an occasional goal given his freedom to move up and show up as a surprise midfielder near the goal. And obviously as you mentioned, position himself well to open up other players.

    I think you're infatuated with his performances from 2012-13 and won't recognize that he is not as good as effective as he once was. Tottenham may have killed his confidence and that happens.

    Some stats and analysis from 2014. Have fun.

    http://copadomundo.uol.com.br/notic...s-dificuldades-do-brasil-na-copa-do-mundo.htm

    http://trivela.uol.com.br/paulinho-brasil-copa-2014/
     
  20. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    After reading those articles, and after my analysis of his play, and after his complete flop in the Premiership, and after his mediocre performance in a sub par league of China, I just can't understand why Tite has so much confidence in Paulinho - Unreal.
     
  21. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    His job is to fill a tactical role necessary as the team molds attacking and defending.

    From 4-4-2 to a 2-5-3 to a 4-3-3 all on the fly.

    oh i am infatuated with the versatility of the player. And even more so on the effectiveness he has had in the right system. Is he a craque? probably not, but he is the type of role player that when you remove there's too much of a gap too fill.

    His confidence at the spurs also had to do with injury don't forget.

    Some stats and analysis from 2014. Have fun.
    "Mais do que isso, porém, é o uso que o time faz de Paulinho. No ano passado, o jogador se envolvia em quase todas as jogadas do time. Dava, em média, 43,5 passes por jogo. Um ano (e uma temporada irregular no Tottenham, da Inglaterra) depois, esse número caiu para 30,5. "

    Paulinho wasn't the only one that suffered through this WC because of a change in strategy. Fred too. Because the tactics of the team became, hit the Neymar and Hulk on the wings with long passes. Instead of the build up through the middle using Alves and Marcelo. Our midfield suffered, our wings suffered and our main forward suffered.

    Criticism was heavy on... Paulinho, Dani Alves, Marcelo and Fred.

    Then he goes on to say that his heat map shows him only on the center and not moving enough. Contrary to the next article that says he moved too much. People read what they want to read. Those were after a 0 x 0 tie with Mexico... If their GK didn't play out of this world that night, 2 or 3 x 0 win and we would all be praising the Selecao.

    The trivela uol is a wonderful piece showing how people turned on him for no reason. At that point Brazil had beaten a Croatia team which was dominated 3 x 1.

    4 shots on goal, 21 fouls committed and 40% ball possession. They got a lucky deflection for the first goal

    And tied 0 x 0 a Mexican team who was also dominated, only shooting from long distance. And requiring divine interventions from their GK 4 times.

    3 shots on goal from Mexico... only 1 from inside the box, all other from distance.... 13 shots total. Yeah they were a danger to Brazil...


    "O mapa de calor com os locais de atuação de Paulinho mostra que o volante esteve por toda a parte. E é incrível como, mesmo assim, atuou como se não estivesse em lugar algum"
    Which is his job to go everywhere

    "Não apareceu como o elemento surpresa."
    He had 1 on 1 miracle save the Mexican GK. Just the fact that he completely ignores this automatically disqualifies his opinion as biased.

    "Não foi bem na marcação, sobrecarregando Luiz Gustavo e Oscar, que, por exemplo, foi o que mais desarmou no jogo, com cinco no total. Quantos desarmes fez Paulinho, em comparação? Nenhum"
    Once again he's pointing to another stat in order to make his case, and not to the Shepard herding those players to Oscar and L. Gustavo.

    And he finishes saying Butcherzinho or Hernanes should be in his place. This is typical brazilian... we need to fix something, whatever it is, throw blame at something and remove that person. If it works great, if it doesn't.. do it again until it works. Forget actually looking for real analysis or even understanding what is going on. Just keep switching non stop. 53 players have been recently called up for the National Team. Germany during the same period.. 35.
     
  22. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    We've beaten this horse to death. We'll see how it turns out.
     
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  23. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    agreed
     
  24. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    I'm tired of our coaches giving out call ups based on favoritism rather than merit.
     
  25. Kevin_405

    Kevin_405 Member

    Jul 30, 2012
    I dont think it is a case of favoritism. It is practicality, european players are just starting their season, some players he probably wanted to call r injured and then there is the case of wanting to implement a new system in a short period of time, means trying to use people who r aware of the system.

    Paulinho did nothing wrong when he was dropped from starting line up in wc. He was always a invisible player who played to his position, which sometimes is not a bad thing when u have advancing wings like marcelo and alves, the problem was the offense was totally dependent on neymar.

    Good part abt paulinho is he does not foul a lot or make mistakes at cruttuial times like Fernandinho. David luiz and fernandiho probably were not selected because of the mistakes they have made in the past.

    Plus asking paulinho to advance too much is dangerous as he lacks pace.

    I suspect we will see luis gustavo, wallace, thiago miah take the spot closer to wc.
     
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